Sorg67 Cycle Experiment #6 Filter v Substrate

I have been curious about the distribution of the cycle between the filter and the substrate. It is commonly believed that the majority of the cycle exists in the filter. The distribution of the beneficial bacteria would vary from tank to tank. But is it 90/10 to 80/20 or is it 70/30 to 60/40.

To test this, I am considering setting up two identical 10 gallon tanks. Same filter, same substrate, same heater, everything identical. Then cycle one and leave the other uncycled. After the cycled tank has run for a while so it has a nice full cycle. Have done some water changes. Mix it up a bit. Vacuum the substrate. Do what I can to distribute the cycle as normally as possible.

Then switch the filters. Put the cycled filter in the uncycled tank and the uncycled filter in the cycled tank. So it would really compare all surfaces with the filter.

Optimally, you would have three identical tanks. Then remove the filter and the substrate from the cycled tank and split them between the two uncycled tanks. So you would one cycled filter, another cycled substrate and a third cycled tank walls.

In either case, dose with carefully measured ammonia and see what happens. I have what I need to do the two tank experiment. I would have to buy another tank, filter and heater to do the three tank experiment. Not sure I want to buy another tank for the experiment.

Wait what am I saying. Perfect excuse to get another tank. It is required for science. Yeah that's it! My wife will buy that. You guys will back me up. Right ?!?

Anyway, if I do this it would not be until May or June. So I am starting the thread now to solicit thoughts on how to structure the experiment to give it the most rigor. I know, any results will be anecdotal at best. But it will be interesting to see if the tank with the filter is virtually instant cycled and the others are basically starting from near scratch. Or do they all have a decent cycle start?

John58ford
AvalancheDave
mattgirl
Momgoose56
FinalFins
bgntoc
Chanyi

 

I have some comments to leave but I dont' have time to write it yet- be back to you

 

I think you need 3 tanks. Cycle one and leave the other two empty and dry.

Then do a gradual 100% water change and fill the other two tanks with the same dechlorinated tap water at the same temperature.

Move all the substrate to one of the new tanks and the filter to the other.

Then test all 3...

 

I wonder to what degree (I think a large degree) the results would depend on the type of filter. I have two Aqueon QuietFlow 30s and two identical sponge filters. I would bet that if I did it with the QuietFlows the cycle would be more heavily with the filter. If I did it with the sponges it would be less with the filters. If I used the sponges, I would have to make sure air flow was very close.

 

I wonder to what degree (I think a large degree) the results would depend on the type of filter. I have two Aqueon QuietFlow 30s and two identical sponge filters. I would bet that if I did it with the QuietFlows the cycle would be more heavily with the filter. If I did it with the sponges it would be less with the filters. If I used the sponges, I would have to make sure air flow was very close.

Hmmm...yeah, you have to keep the oxygenation and circulation similar. Maybe 3 identical HOB filters?

 

If you cycle one tank with filter substrate ad walls, theres a couple factors that wouldn't be held constant, like accounting for algae growth, correct? Since one tank would be more mature than others it would make sense the cycled walls would be the first to grow algae?

Also is the testing for 9/1 8/2 ratio based on ammonia consumption?

 

Well you could start the main tank now and let it cycle. It’s going to take some time. I believe moving the filter to the new tank will cycle that tank instantly. Been done so many times! But the gravel tank will be interesting to see how fast it cycles. Now the gravel will take longer to cycle than the filter. So how long you run the tank may make a difference with how quick the gravel tank cycles. I would say you’ll get different results with a 1month cycled tank than a 6 month cycled tank. Either way I don’t believe there enough bacteria on the walls to cycle a new tank. That tank will take much longer to cycle. Subscribed.

 

If you cycle one tank with filter substrate ad walls, theres a couple factors that wouldn't be held constant, like accounting for algae growth, correct? Since one tank would be more mature than others it would make sense the cycled walls would be the first to grow algae?

Good point

Also is the testing for 9/1 8/2 ratio based on ammonia consumption?

That is what I had in mind, but I am open to a better method.

 

Well you could start the main tank now and let it cycle. It’s going to take some time. I believe moving the filter to the new tank will cycle that tank instantly. Been done so many times! But the gravel tank will be interesting to see how fast it cycles. Now the gravel will take longer to cycle than the filter. So how long you run the tank may make a difference with how quick the gravel tank cycles. I would say you’ll get different results with a 1month cycled tank than a 6 month cycled tank. Either way I don’t believe there enough bacteria on the walls to cycle a new tank. That tank will take much longer to cycle. Subscribed.

At this point the tanks are occupied. So I have to decommission them. For the tank(s) to be considered not cycled, I have to sterilize them. The filters are also in use. So anything that will be "not cycled" must go through some disinfecting process, then sit dry for a while.

I agree that the tank with the filter will be cycled. But the idea is to get the cycled tank processing say 4 ppm ammonia to zero ammonia and nitrites in 24 hours. If you take that filter and put it in a sterile tank will the cycle still be that strong? Maybe the filter will be able to process 3 ppm ammonia to zero zero in 24 hours. The substrate 0.8 and the cycled tank 0.2.

Will that be measurable? If so how would we do that? Could hit them all with 4 ppm ammonia as soon as we move everything. Would the filtered tank process it all in 24 hours? Or would it go through a mini cycle? How much would the substrate and tank process?

 

Well does a newly cycled tank matter? With your already cycled tank you could start as soon as you get the third tank. This would tell you how fast an active substrate cycles a new tank. Something people may actually do.

 

Agreed, the cycled tank will begin with an existing tank. But I will build the cycle up with ammonia so that I can quantify the strength of the cycle with a known ammonia processing capacity.

 

This would tell you how fast an active substrate cycles a new tank. Something people may actually do.

This is a good point. We always think of “instant cycling” a tank using a seeded filter. But I wonder if using seeded substrate for the entire substrate would be a strong seed.

That could be phase two of the experiment. First estimate the distribution of the cycle through the tank. Then see how long it would take the parts to recover the previous capacity.

 

I really do not want to buy any extra stuff I don’t need. I would like to make it work with what I have.

Two 10s
Two Aqueon QuietFlow 30s
Two identical sponge filters
20 lbs of medium gravel

Thinking I could do four tests

QuietFlow vs rest of the tank
Sponge vs rest of the tank
Gravel vs rest of tank w/ QuietFlow
Gravel vs rest of tank w/ Sponge

Now I need some procedures.... Thoughts?

First I will get the existing inhabitants out of the two 10s

Leave one set up with a QuietFlow filter and feed ammonia enough to keep the cycle well fed.

Sterilize the other. I need a sterilizing procedure. Bleach everything? Rinse really well and let dry for some period.

Build the set up cycle to a defined ammonia processing capacity - say 2 ppm a day? Let it process that level for a period of time to make sure the cycle has a chance to stabilize. How long?

Then switch filters. Continue to feed 2 ppm per day. Test for ammonia and nitrites and observe differences in processing capacity. If they are not able to process 2 ppm per day, see how long it takes to build back up to that level.

Repeat the process but instead of switching the filter, switch the substrate.

Repeat the process but use the sponges instead of the QuietFlow. Both switching filters and switching substrate.

 

I read a thread today discussing the location of beneficial bacteria. The risk of changing media, etc.

It made me think that a part of this experiment could be some cycle abuse.

Use tap water without dechlorinating
Change filter media
Clean filter media in tap water

A lot of things people worry about that might not make as much a difference as we think.

As with all of this, I will not prove anything. But may be some interesting anecdotal observations.

 

I have emptied one 10 gallon tank of livestock. I cleaned the tank walls and did two 75% and one 90% water changes with untreated tap water.

Last night I hit it with 1 ppm Dr Tims ammonia. I suspected that the cycle would not be as sensitive as people think and would process some of the ammonia. I was wrong. This morning there is a full 1 ppm left. No measurable amount has been processed.

Since I want to use this tank for my cycle experiment, I want to make sure there is not even the slightest seed left. Therefore, I am planning to hit it with some bleach, empty it and let it dry out for a while.

Questions:

1. How much bleach would it take to make sure it is totally free of even the slightest cycle material? I read a 10% solution is needed to sterilize a tank. That seems like a lot.
2. How long should I let it dry?
3. I have read to be careful not to mix bleach with other household cleaners like ammonia. I am assuming I do not need to worry about 1 ppm Dr Tims
4. After I treat with bleach, how much rinsing. I am thinking I would do a couple water changes with untreated tap water. Let it run for a couple days. Empty it and then let it sit to dry out.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Witty and Pithy comments?

 

I think just getting it bone dry would be enough. Leave it that way for several days to be sure.

 

I wonder if the distribution of the cycle would depend on the source of the ammonia. Artificial ammonia put into the water might promote a filter concentrated cycle.

Fish poop and excessive feeding might promote a substrate heavy cycle.

Light feeding and regular vacuuming might promote a filter heavy cycle.

 

I have just vacated the second 10 gallon for the experiment. I am not planning to start the experiment immediately. I am a bit busy at the moment and am trying to scale down. So I am going to let both tanks dry out and start from scratch with both.

I am thinking that my earlier thought of doing this with ammonia is not going to provide as quantifiable results as I had originally hoped. I also wonder if ammonia would result in a different distribution of the cycle than fish since you would not have fish poop sinking into the substrate.

So I am thinking of doing the experiment with fish.

Start by doing a fish in cycle with my feeder guppies. I would like to try a fish in cycle anyway to see how that goes. Then let the tank establish with the guppies for a while so the cycle gets good and settled.

Feed the fish a measured quantity of food consistently so I have a somewhat consistent input.

Then move the filter and fish to another tank, continue to feed the same amount and see if it instant cycles.

Then move the filter and fish back to the first tank and sterilize the second tank.

Then move the fish and the substrate to the second tank with a sterile filter and see what happens.