Something is killing my livestock

Obviously, or I wouldn't be in this thread

Tank is a 33 gallon that has been running for 9 months. Filtration is done with a Tetra Whisper 60 (330gph) HOB with a small (rated for 10 gallon) sponge filter mounted as a per-filter on the intake. and a Lustar Hydro-Sponge III (rated for 40 gallon). The HOB has peat pellets in it that I change every couple months (once the water starts to look clear again). The sponge filter is assembled with a 1" air stone and is powered by 1 of the ports on a Tetra 60(?) air pump. I have not changed the filter media in several months, but I rinse one of the filters (per-filter, HOB media, or big sponge) in the old tank water every water change.

Current inhabitants are:

4x Cockatoo Apistos (1m 3f)
6x JulI Cories
5x Otocinclus
4x Threadfin Rainbows
15x Nerite snails
15(?)x red cherry shrimp


I feed New Life Spectrum small grow pellets 2x a day.

I have had the Apistos for about 7 months. I bought a batch of 9 juvis and raised them until they were sexable (4-6 weeks from when I got them). had 7 females and 2 males. I put 6 females and the best looking male in the 30 gallon to grow further (at that time, all that was in there was the rainbows, the RCS, and 2 Javanese Ricefish). I left 1 male and the remaining female in the other (10 gallon) tank. About 48 hours later I lost the male in the 30 gallon. I left the remaining females alone to grow. I did not "develop" another male (no sneakers).

About 2 1/2 months ago I sorted them again. I kept the 3 best looking females and moved the male into the 30 gallon. The ricefish and the remaining females were taken to the "LFS" which 3 hours away (I refuse to deal with the only other "LFS" and it is 1.5 hours away). I traded them for 5 Otos and 16 Zebra nerites. Within 48 hours I had lost 2 otos, but I chalked it up to them being sensitive and traveling 3 hours. The other 3 flourished. After I quarantined them for 2 weeks they were added to the main tank. Shortly after I added the Otos I started feeding Repashy Super Green 2x a week (a sheet 1" x 3" x 1/4" would last them most of the day) The Otos are always fat.

About a six weeks ago, I was back in the LFS, I picked up the Cories, they were also quarantined for 2 weeks with no issues before being added to the main tank. When The Cories were added I started feeding Repashy Spawn and Grow 2-3 times a week. I had tried it for a time shortly after I got the Apoistos, but they wouldn't touch it. The Cories eat like piglets and will clean up a 1 inch cube in a couple hours. The Apistos will nibble at it now, but they prefer the NLS.

About a month ago, I was back in the LFS. I picked up 5 more otos and 5 BeckfordI Pencilfish (I wanted more, but that is all they had). They were being acclimated to the quarantine tank at the same time as the Cories were dripping for the main tank. The plan was to leave 2 Otos in the quarantine and move 2 Cories back into it when I moved everything around again so that I could keep it cycled.

I usually do one 50% water change with a light gravel vac each week using tap water. Last week I decided that I wanted to try to get the Apistos to spawn so I increased that to two 50% changes a week and started adding 3 gallons of RO water with each change. I also reduced the HOB flow to 50%. This seems to have worked as I have 2 females that have turned yellow, although the male does not seem interested yet. In the quarantine I also went to two WC a week, adding 1 gallon of RO with each change (trying to keep tank waters similar). My plan was to slowly increase the amount of RO over the next 6 weeks until I was at 50% RO. in both tanks. Every time I do a WC I dose with Prime.

On Saturday I lost one of the Otos in the main tank. I had 1 Oto that would join the Cories in their Repashy Spawn and Grow frenzy, and after this one died there were no Otos that would eat the Spawn and Grow. I attributed this one to too much meat in it's diet.

On Sunday morning I did another 50% WC with 3 gallons of RO. I also moved 3 Otos out of quarantine and into the main tank. They are all doing very well.


Last night I noticed my male Apisto was hiding behind the sponge filter and did not come out to eat, instead picking at the few pellets that came close to his hiding spot. The male was also moderately aggressive to two of females, nothing major just if they got too close he would chase them off. I assumed he had spawned with the third female and was guarding eggs. while she was eating.

This morning I found a dead Cory. Since it was near the sponge filter I assumed it had gotten too close to the spawning Apistos and they killed it. The male did not come out to eat again, but all 3 females did. However, this afternoon when I actually saw the male again he was kind of clamped up and not showing his fins like usual, he has a large white spot at the base of his dorsal fin and is rubbing on anything he can. He chases away any of the female Apistos if they get close, but rubs on the Cories.

I did my 3rd 50% WC with 3 gallons of RO (been 8 days since the first). I also did a deep gravel vac and shook the large wad of Java moss to get some of the debris out of it (in the process I discovered my RCS population is much higher than I initially thought). At this point my tank should be about 17% RO/83% tap. After the WC I turned the HOB back up to help clear the water. I always feed a couple hours after a WC, and this time the male came out to eat. I got some pictures that I will post. During the WC I also noticed that there was a Nerite on the substrate that had not moved since the last WC. When I picked it up I noticed that the body was fleshy colored and not black like all the others


I know some of you will want my water parameters. So here they are:

Tap:
Ph - 8.2
Ammonia - .5ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 10-20ppm
dGH - 10
dKH -8

Aquarium before adding RO:

Ph - 8.2
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 10-20ppm
dGH 10
dKH 8

store bought RO:
Ph - 6.8
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm
dGH 2
dKH 1

Tank this morning before WC:

Ph - 8.0
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 10-20ppm
dGH - 10
dKH - 8

after WC:

Ph - 7.8
Nitrate - 5ppm
dGH - 9
dKH - 7

I keep the temp at 77-79*F using a Eheim-Jager heater. I have never seen more than a 2* fluctuation.

I will say right out that I am not sure I trust the "before" readings. I would have expected to see PH in the 7.9 range with dGH around 8-9 and dKH around 7. The after readings are exactly what I expected.


In summary, in the last 5 days I have lost 1 Zebra Nerite, 1 Oto, 1 Cory and I suspect I am about to lose my male Apisto


I do not have any medications and the earliest I could have anything would be Friday night. I am about to order some Melafix and Pimafix and have it overnighted, but the way he is acting makes me wonder if it might be a parasite. I really only have one chance to get the right stuff because there is no place local (other than maybe walmart?) for me to get any meds.


Pictures as promised; sorry for the quality, all I have right now for pictures is my cell phone.

The male with the spot in question:










Same fish, picture taken December 23rd





And a couple to show off my pretty girls:

 

after more reading, I am thinking I have Columnaris. I am thinking lower tank temp to 74 and use Kanamycin combined with Furan 2 and possibly Metronidazole to treat as mentioned:



I know that Furan 2 is not safe for invertebrates, so I would need to move my snails and shrimp first. Can I move them to my quarantine tank, or would doing that infect my other fish? I am guessing that I will need to get another tank...

Thoughts?

 

The rubbing sounds more to me like a parasite of some sort. I'm currently on the last day of treatment for a columnaris outbreak, and none of my ill fish rubbed on anything. The difficulty is that 1. Columnaris presents with different symptoms in individual fish, one might had a fungal appearance around the mouth, another may die with no visible symptoms because the gills are infected, and a third may develop a saddle spot across their back that appears to be a fungus but has a more smooth, milky appearance. And 2. The stress from being ill with columnaris opens the fish up to secordary fungal or bacterial infections.
I'd try giving the affected fish a salt bath first, it increases slime coat and boosts the immune system. If It's not columnaris, that might be enough to fix the issue. I wouldn't jump into medicating the tank right away.

 

I have ordered the following:

MelaFix
PimaFix
PraziPro
Furan-2
KanaPlex
Metronidazole


I will have these tomorrow night. I would like to believe this assortment can cure any known ailment in my aquarium. I am still not certain WHAT I have, but I do suspect it is Columnaris. If you guys have any suggestions on how to further diagnose or treat please share. Otherwise I am going to start treatment with KanaPlex and Furan-2 tomorrow.

 

Well, you'll certainly be prepared for anything now! Bear in mind when treating that if you do have columnaris, it's a gram negative bacteria, so anything geared towards gram positive bacteria will give you minimal results.

 

Too much information. It is hard to pull out the important information.
First, your stressing your fish with repeated PH swings with the water changes and adding the RO.
Second, you should not have threadfins in with the apistos, or any other fish with any aggressive tendencies.

The patch looks like the saddle ulcer that frequently shows up in Columnaris infections, that can be treated with the Kanaplex and Furan. I suggest treating in a QT and moving any fish that shows any symptoms of being sick to that QT. Keep the environment in both tanks as stable and clean as possible. Do not add salt, this will cause itching and stress to the cories and ottos.

I'm not sure if you wrote about feeding the ottos algae wafers or not, but having 5 to a 30 gal is a bit much for the amount of algae you are likely to get.

Best of luck with this

 

Too much information. It is hard to pull out the important information.

I am sorry, I didn't know what was and was not pertinant. I feel it is much better to include all the information and allow the experts to sort it out then to not include enough and spend the next 2 days answering questions when I could/should be treating.

First, your stressing your fish with repeated PH swings with the water changes and adding the RO.

Ph has not been swinging. It has been slowly dropping due to me diluting my tap water with RO, but it does not bounce back up. In the last 9 days I have gone from 8.2 to 7.8-7.9, I do realize that this is a substantial change and does induce some stress which may be what allowed whatever I am dealing with to take hold. However, I am also certain that if I was to stop doing waterchanges, or stop using RO that the resulting Nitrates or Ph bouncing back would be even more stressful. My tank is right now at about 17% RO, if I continue with 3 gallons of RO per 50% WC the max concentration the tank will ever see will be a little over 20%. I am also concidering that all my livestock originally came from tanks ranging from 6.0-7.2 and were basically plunged into 8.2 with no deaths. I suspect if the "swinging Ph" was the cause of this issue I would be seeing something similar symptoms in the Pencilfish and much more sensitive Otos in the QT tank as well.

Second, you should not have threadfins in with the apistos, or any other fish with any aggressive tendencies.

The threadfins and Apistos have been together for over 7 months now with no issues. The threadfins stay at the top of the tank, the Apistos at the bottom. The only time they interact is during feeding time and there have never been any aggression issues between them. I actually think the Rainbows are more aggressive to each other than any of my other fish in the tank. This could be because there is only 4 of them, but I have no intentions of adding more and when they have died of old age they will not be replaced with more threadfins. My Apistos have always been very peacefull up to now when my sick male is a bit grouchy.

The patch looks like the saddle ulcer that frequently shows up in Columnaris infections, that can be treated with the Kanaplex and Furan. I suggest treating in a QT and moving any fish that shows any symptoms of being sick to that QT. Keep the environment in both tanks as stable and clean as possible.

That is what I was thinking as well, my plan was to drop the tank temp and shut off the light timer (except for feeding time) for the duration of the treatment. Unfortunately I do not have another QT tank to use because I have Pencilfish and Otos in it now. I do want to pick up a 20 gallon to use as a fry grow-out tank, but I can't do that until Saturday at the earliest. I also need to figure out what to do with my snails and shrimp while treating the main tank. I am a concerned that if I was to put them in my QT tank that they may contaminate it also, but if I leave them in the main tank the treatment will probably kill them.

I am thinking to put them in a bucket tomorrow night and start treating the main tank. On Saturday pick up the 20 gallon and put the shrimp and snails in it. Leave the Otos and Pencilfish in the 10 gallon QT tank and when everything is said and done put a couple Otos with some/all of the Cories and maybe the Threadfins into the 20 gallon (with some RCS and a snail or 2).

When treating with a combo of Kanaplex and Furan 2 do I use the normal full dosage of each?

Do not add salt, this will cause itching and stress to the cories and ottos.

THANKS, I suspected this was the case but was not sure and could not find anything for certain one way or another.

I'm not sure if you wrote about feeding the ottos algae wafers or not, but having 5 to a 30 gal is a bit much for the amount of algae you are likely to get.

Yes, I did mention feeding Repashy Super Green several times a week. I also feed HikarI algae wafers several times a week.

Best of luck with this

Thanks

 

Well, I got home tonight and had another dead Cory. I am now down to 5

I fed them this morning and the only fish showing any symptoms at all was the Apisto. And he was looking much worse.


I did a 50% water change and removed the snails. I also removed the wad of moss and as many shrimp as I could catch (there was at least 1 juvI that I couldn't). I put the inverts into a 5 gallon bucket half full of dechlorinated tap water and added the small sponge filter. They should be okay in there for the 12-24 hours they will be there.

I mixed a couple table spoons of tank water with 1 scoop of KanaPlex and a half packet of Furan-2 and soaked their food in it for about 15 minutes.

I dosed the tank with a full dose of each. and fed them their soaked food. After about 15 minutes, I shut the light back off.

I just went and looked, my Apisto actually came to the glass to beg like he used to. He is still clamped up, but he seems to be feeling a bit better!

I am going to leave the heat down and lights off except for feeding and cleaning. I am also going to go to 1 feeding a day (with food soaked in meds) and a 50% WC every 2 days.

How long should I continue this? Obviously if there is no improvement after some time I need to consider a different approach, but how long should I wait to make that assessment? Assuming this treatment works, how long after a perceived full recovery should I continue?


Tomorrow morning I am headed to Petco, they are having their $1/gallon sale so I will pick up a 20 gallon for my inverts. (hope to use as a fry grow out tank eventually) I will also see if they have a 40 breeder that I can use to replace my 30 gallon with (obviously not until everyone is well again).

How long should the inverts be apart from the fish before I can call them "safe"? How long after completing treatment could I consider the water safe for inverts?

Thanks

 

Well, I did another 50% WC last night and gave 3rd dose of KanaPlex/Furan-2


The Apisto was not looking well at all. He was thin (hasn't eaten anything in 2 days) and almost colorless. He was also having a hard time staying upright. I did not expect him to make it through the night.

One of the Otos is also showing signs of a saddle now...

This morning the Apisto was dead. Major bummer as there is now were near to get another one.

How much longer should I treat with the KanaPlex/Furan-2?

 

I'm sorry for your loss columnaris is an absolutely evil disease. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, but I'll warn you that every guppy I had that showed signs didn't make it. But on the bright side (for you, at least) everything I've read has indicated that female guppies are more prone to it, and they're also smaller fish, so that may be why it took them all, and so quickly.

While a salt bath can sometimes help, I'd avoid giving one to your Oto, as I've read salt can cause burns and such to shapeless fish. My cory seems fine with a small amount of salt in the tank, but the concentration for a salt bath or dip is much higher than what I add.

 

On the 3rd day I freaked out when I saw my the male was not going to make it. I did some quick research and found that PraziPro can be safely dosed with KanaPlex and Furan-2 (although I had not found anyone who dosed all 3 together). I was desperate to save him so I dosed with PraziPro also. I also found out that I had to go out of town for 5 days.

On day 4 I did another 50% WC, dosed again with KanaPlex, Furan-2, and a half dose of PraziPro.

On day 5 I did another 50% WC, dosed again with KanaPlex, Furan-2, and full dose of PraziPro. I shut the lights off and left.

Day 10 I returned to find everyone happy, hungry, and (seemingly) healthy. I did another 50% WC, added carbon to the HOB filter.

Day 12, added 6 nerites back into the main tank. an interesting note - I did not find all the nerites when I pulled them before starting treatment (apparently I had 16). The one that was left in the tank survived the treatment with seemingly no ill effects. I had also seen 2 juvI RCS when I was treating, but I have not seen them for a couple days. I am not sure if they got eaten, or died, or maybe are hiding.

I am not going to add the rest of the RCS back yet. I want to give them time in a shripm-only tank to repopulate. Then I will maintain at least 2 populations.


I am now on day 14 and all seems well. I don't think I am out of the woods yet, but at least it seems there is some light.

 

I have ordered the following:

MelaFix
PimaFix
PraziPro
Furan-2
KanaPlex
Metronidazole


I will have these tomorrow night. I would like to believe this assortment can cure any known ailment in my aquarium. I am still not certain WHAT I have, but I do suspect it is Columnaris. If you guys have any suggestions on how to further diagnose or treat please share. Otherwise I am going to start treatment with KanaPlex and Furan-2 tomorrow.

You bought a lot of medications there that do the same thing;

MelaFix - All natural antibiotic and anticeptic for mild scrapes and abrasions.
PimaFix - All natrual fungal and parasitic for mild cases
PraziPro - Parasitic
Furan-2 - Bacterial
KanaPlex - Fungal & Bacterial
Metronidazole - Bacterial & Parasitic


One to consider: ParaGuard - Fungal, Parasitic, Bacterial & Viral. This is great to use for prophylactic treatment of new fish a day or so after you bring them home. 1 cap per 10 gallons, it doesn't hurt the good bacteria, and will not stain the tank.


Tip: Use Metronidazole with Seachem Focus and Rapashi to make a gel food for feeding ill fish. Add a few drops of GarlicGuard and a drop or two of VitaChem to the diced chunks of gel food.

You forgot Kordon Fish Protector; it adds lost electrolytes due to stress back into the water, adds some vitamins, and acts as a binding agent for medications (helps medications get into the fishes skin). Used with every water change will calm fish and reduce stress.


To my knowledge (someone chime in here if necessary) one thing that none of the medications above will treat are Camalanus worms.

 

I'm not a fish expert by any standard, but I do know that with humans and a lot of other animals, mixing various antibiotics can cause problems because generally antibiotics aren't too picky about what bacteria they kill, including beneficial ones in the gut. Id be careful about using them all at once. I thought you meant you'd be using them separately.

 

I'm guessing he just wants to have a fully stocked aquatic med cabinet. Nothing wrong with that, although I think it's important to research medications. For example, if one antibiotic does not work then perhaps a stronger one may be needed. Essentially you would need to know what the weak antibiotics are, the medium strength ones and the strong ones. For example you wouldn't use PimaFix on a severe infestation of ICH... you'd skip the ParaGuard and go right to Metronidazole. We almost need to be minI vet scientists, but we also have to pay close attention to our little babies in case they catch something we can treat it right away without harsher meds.

 

I'm guessing he just wants to have a fully stocked aquatic med cabinet. Nothing wrong with that, although I think it's important to research medications. For example, if one antibiotic does not work then perhaps a stronger one may be needed. Essentially you would need to know what the weak antibiotics are, the medium strength ones and the strong ones. For example you wouldn't use PimaFix on a severe infestation of ICH... you'd skip the ParaGuard and go right to Metronidazole. We almost need to be minI vet scientists, but we also have to pay close attention to our little babies in case they catch something we can treat it right away without harsher meds.

Hence my near-constant research on all things fish lol

 

We're going on vacation on the 25th, and I swear I almost considered a few nanny-cams for the tanks rofl. Papajin normally spoils me, but I have a strong suspicion Id only get laughed at rofl.

 

We're going on vacation on the 25th, and I swear I almost considered a few nanny-cams for the tanks rofl. Papajin normally spoils me, but I have a strong suspicion Id only get laughed at rofl.

I keep inviting my parents in to see the tanks, but if they even lean too close I'm like "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING!!!" XD I may be slightly protective.