Sick shrimp or just getting harrased?

0100010

Just brought home 12 blue dream neocaridina shrimp from LFS, they are not even done acclimating are are still in the drip container. Everyone was lively in the bag and on the way home, at least as far as I could tell, but now I see one on its back or side mostly motionless all the time. It isn't dead (yet) I've seen it twitch its legs and pedipalps occasionally. But it's also been getting swarmed by what I assume are males. SO is this girl sick or giving off pheromones and getting harassed? There are no molts in the container, but not sure how recently any did so at the LFS. Should I separate it? (not sure where it will go though as acclimation isn't done yet)
 

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Shrimpee

rightfully LFS should use the water from the tank to pack the shrimps. some dont. they just scoop water from the tank next to packing area. difference in water parameter will cos the shrimps to go motionless.
i expereinced this a few times. until i make sure i scoop the water from the tank which i got the shrimps. lesser issue...i guess transport also may cause them to be like this.
again. a good shrimp shop will put in a piece of small netting that all the shrimps will go hang on to. if there is nothing, they will just hangon to anything, hence to the motionless shirmp
 

0100010

I believe they used water from the tank they were in although they were floating the bag in the tank next to it, to have maneuver room, but that was also a neo caridina shrimp tank. No netting was added to the bag. Am I correct in assuming the white spots in the abdomen in the pics are eggs?

It's only the 1 being motionless/on its side. the other 11 have been spry.
 

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Cherryshrimp420

Seems like it's dying and the others are about to eat it. I dont think the LFS took good care of them since they should be hardy enough to survive the packaging and trip home.
 

0100010

This is the parameters and contents of the quarantine tank they will be living in until my larger tank gets its numbers under control. (it is currently drip acclimating into the container holding the LFS water and shrimp)

5 g tank w/ 4g water. No substrate.
2 Nerite snails.
Lots of algae covered christmas moss,
Red Root floaters, Banana Lilies, Anubias Petite tied to a cholla wood log. Another cholla wood log, and a large shell. Nerites have been in there for a few weeks. Tank has been cycled for longer than that w/ the christmas moss and cholla wood. Anubias, lilies and floaters have only been in for about a week.
Added a couple of small alder cones and a half dollar sized piece of catalpa leaf in today to help build tannin and possibly lower pH a bit. I have more of each but want to save it for later.

Ph7.8
Ammonia0
Nitrite0
Nitrate0
TDS178
GH7
KH4
Copper0
Phosphate0-0.25

(phosphate might actually be zero, but too hard to tell on the colors)

Any change recommendations to try?
 

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0100010

Well, that one did not survive. I put the other 11 into the tank but found another one dead this morning. I've seen 5 alive, the rest are hiding. LFS has a 48-hour warranty though so I should be able to replace those two, but should check for any others.
 

0100010

I got two free replacements and they seem to be doing well, the ones I can see at least. Hide too often to count very well. They may have stripped one of the cholla logs already given how lighter in color it has become. Added a small piece of a nano block which brought five of them out of hiding. They haven't made much of a dent in the algae though, but at least one has embedded itself in the algae-moss mass.
 

ProudPapa

I got two free replacements and they seem to be doing well, the ones I can see at least. Hide too often to count very well. They may have stripped one of the cholla logs already given how lighter in color it has become. Added a small piece of a nano block which brought five of them out of hiding. They haven't made much of a dent in the algae though, but at least one has embedded itself in the algae-moss mass.

They probably won't. In addition to what you feed them they mostly eat biofilm.
 

0100010

Is this the start or a molt or an unfinished one on its leg or something more sinister? (it was still pretty active but hiding in the moss)

Also found a red spot on a different shrimp (last pic), anything to worry about?
 

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0100010

I'm trying not to lose hope but after the first week, starting with 12 shrimp I only have 4 left. I cleaned the tank today so I could explicitly find and count them.
I did everything right, my parameters always tested well, I drip acclimated them originally for several hours. When my water was low due to a prior cleaning and having to drop accumulate two replacements from day 1, I also drip acclimated the mineralized RO water over 18+ hours so I could bring the TDS up to 195 from its prior value and GH from 7 to 8. It's a planted tank, they have plenty of places to hide, biofilm-covered driftwood, supplemented w/ small pieces of nano block every other day, and only have two nerites in with them. I'm worried about the pic I took above in prior post but nobody replied.

I only found two bodies when cleaning, one recently dead, still blue, and one not so recent which had turned orange. I found either 3 molts or 3 carcasses that had left only the white skin. Nothing left of the rest, I presume they died early on and were devoured.

I had a berried female but she didn't make it.

Realy bummed over this, I don't know why so many sites call neo-caridina hardy when they are anything but that.
 

ruud

The blue dreams....well, ProudPapa finds them easy, but I don't. Perhaps some populations in Europe might differ from US - who knows.

In general, neo's indeed are easy. They survive in some of my tanks that on first sight, don't seem ideal at all. For instance, 3 gallon tanks sitting on a windowsill catching direct sunlight.

The key in my opinion is minimal intervention aka. patience. When you mention cleaning, in my book, that's pretty much the opposite of this. Shrimp love dirty substrates to graze on.

Perhaps I overlook something, but you don't mention temperature. I've learned the hard way and used to underestimate its importance with shrimp; particularly the transition from one environment to another. Going from a warm environment to a colder, never seems to be a problem. Going the other way, and depending on the difference of course, means death in a few days. That's my experience. So I always make sure, a target tank's temp is lower than the source's.

Regarding your images; the "white worm" is difficult to tell; I would really need to see a clear image. Regarding the dot; that looks like "rust".
 

0100010

There is no substrate in the tank. It was/is supposed to be a quarantine tank and they were intended to be moved into a larger tank, but the big tank's parameters got out of whack so nothing is going into it yet. Cleaning consists of being careful to move plants/driftwood and shrimp out of the way before sweeping the mulm into a corner with an algae scraper and using a baster to suck it out.
The temperature is 'room temperature' (no heater in the tank) and I keep the house at 75F.
Any water put in the tank has sat long enough to reach room temperature.

Unfortunately, those are the max magnification I can get with my phone and it never seems to focus well when zoomed in.
 

ruud

That's some room temperature you have! Mine are currently at 64. Again, the difference from source to target is what matters.

If they have been transported, being exposed to below 60 F temp (which is fine for neo's), being welcomed in a 75 F room, makes a difference in my opinion.

Eventually, 75 F would not be a problem. On summer days, our room temperature exceeds 75 F; but the seasonal change is just very, very gradual.

Shrimp love grazing on mulm. If its a QT tank, I would leave the mulm in.

If it's the larger tank, I would leave it in as well :). Substrates with mulm/decomposing plant matter, is beneficial.

The "rust" spot is an issue; if it really is a symptom of rust disease, then its contagious. It can be treated provided it's in the early stage.
 

0100010

I live in DFW, 75 is what our AC is set to. They came from a LFS, whose fish room at least felt pretty normal. I didn't check if they were using heaters or not. Long drip acclimation should have handled temperature change also anyway. The LFS received them on Friday from FlipAquatics, I bought them on Sunday afternoon, brought them home at 3 pm, and acclimated them till 1 am Monday. One didn't survive acclimation and didn't go into tank. Found another dead in the tank Monday morning. Counted 9 alive, never found the 10th, presumed it was hiding. Got 2 free replacements Monday afternoon for the dead two, and acclimated them from about 2 pm to 8 or 9 pm. Saw fewer and fewer over the next few days presumed they were hiding in the moss. I think I counted 6 IIRC midweek Wed/Thurs during 1st cleaning. Now I'm at this point.
 

Cherryshrimp420

I dont think your quarantine tank was cycled. What's wrong with the main tank? Which parameter got out of whack? A simple water change should fix it pretty quickly.
 

ProudPapa

Without me going back and reading all the replies, is this a recently set up tank? I've struggled with keeping shrimp alive in those, even when I added a sponge filter and plenty of plants from established tanks.
 

0100010

I dont think your quarantine tank was cycled. What's wrong with the main tank? Which parameter got out of whack? A simple water change should fix it pretty quickly.
It is cycled according to all the readings I've taken since setting it up. My main tank had an unexpected ammonia, pH and phosphate spike detailed in this thread, but it may be clearing up as yesterday's ammonia reading was at 0 again. Though its currently pea soup from a green water outbreak that has been going on for more than a week. (at first, I thought it was GDA because the test tube water looked clear, but it wasn't clear there just wasn't enough depth in there to tell. The straight-down look showed it tinted.
Without me going back and reading all the replies, is this a recently set up tank? I've struggled with keeping shrimp alive in those, even when I added a sponge filter and plenty of plants from established tanks.
What do you define as recent? This 4g was set up from seeded media from a 3.5g fishless cycled tank. I put Christmas moss in it and a few small stem plant trims from other plants I was putting in the main tank. It held no livestock for a few weeks and was seeded with drops of ammonia to keep the colony alive every few days. Then I put two nerite snails in and stopped ammonia dosing. The nerites were in for a few weeks before I added additional plants, (Anubias petite, banana lilies, and redroot floaters) and then added the shrimp a few days later.
During this whole ~2-month period, all Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate readings have read as zero.
 

Blacksheep1

The worm thing concerns me !!! Is it still there? Is there more ?
 

0100010

I don't know. I have previously seen small white worms on the glass (1mm or less in length) I presumed they were detritus worms. I cannot see them without using my phone camera's max magnification. I also saw what at first thought was a baby shrimp, but on reflection, it was way too small (also about 1mm), despite having a fantail. It was translucent white and could dart 1 to 2 inches at a time when I saw it moving by the glass. I have a video but it's so out of focus at that magnification you just see a white speck darting around.

Whatever was on that one shrimp was longer in length. I have not seen anything recently not even on the glass. I can't look everywhere though.
 

Blacksheep1

That doesn’t look anything like a detritus worm to me ! That looks more sinister ..

What you described does sound like a baby shrimplet, congratulations :)
 

0100010

Maybe there is some hope. I could have sworn I had seen the berried female among the 4 survivors but thought I was mistaken after seeing no eggs on all 4 later on. Before she was seriously fanning them and would not leave the bottom of the tank/swim dart around even when I gently prodded her to move, she just waddled away instead.

I just checked the area I had last seen the speck and two specks are milling around a mass of algae/biofilm/mulm stuff.
 

Blacksheep1

Does this photo help you any ? Is this what you’re seeing?
FB3A428B-77AD-4E7A-AF9B-B53B8CDDAAA8.jpeg

if so then that’s fantastic :)
 

0100010

It's too small to make out that level of detail. I have videos but it's not convenient to upload them right now. My last video of the berried female was on 4/29, and the first video of that 'maybe a shrimplet?' is on the same day. As of 5/1 the 4 in the tank have no eggs hanging on them, but I also pulled out one recently dead blue one. Either that one was the berried female or they all hatched between 4/29 and 5/1, and she's one of the survivors sans eggs.
 

Cherryshrimp420

Those dont seem like numbers of a cycled tank. There should be some nitrate readings as the ammonia gets processed.

The ammonia should be consistently added, seems like it was stopped for a few weeks before shrimps were added?

The dots on the glass are normal, theyre just seed shrimp or sone other copepods. Very common in newly cycled tanks so it seems like your qt tank just finished cycling

Your main tank sounds okay, ammonia, phosphate spike can be solved by big water changes. Green water is quite good for shrimp, I would have added the shrimp straight to the main tank.
 

0100010

Unless it and the nitrates are getting sucked dry by the plants. Which is what I have been seeing in all my tanks with lots of plants, such that it even pulls out the 5 ppm Nitrates that my tap water starts out with. Even the big tank which had the ammonia spikes, never produced nitrites or nitrates. (well they were probably produced, but never measured when tested) I have seen the nitrite/nitrate cycle it did so in my original fishless/plantless cycle run which generated the seed media/filters.

I had nerites in the tank before the shrimp was added. I'm not going to dose ammonia deliberately into a tank that is stocked with something I want to stay alive.
 

Cherryshrimp420

Unless it and the nitrates are getting sucked dry by the plants. Which is what I have been seeing in all my tanks with lots of plants, such that it even pulls out the 5 ppm Nitrates that my tap water starts out with. Even the big tank which had the ammonia spikes, never produced nitrites or nitrates. (well they were probably produced, but never measured when tested) I have seen the nitrite/nitrate cycle it did so in my original fishless/plantless cycle run which generated the seed media/filters.

I had nerites in the tank before the shrimp was added. I'm not going to dose ammonia deliberately into a tank that is stocked with something I want to stay alive.

Have you been feeding the nerites? Food is the main source of ammonia

You can keep a healthy cycle going just by feeding the tank. If you haven't been feeding much and suddenly starts adding a lot of food for 12 shrimps, that can overwhelm the cycle until the bacteria colonies grows to adjust.
 

0100010

I know food is the source of ammonia, I meant I am not going to deliberately dose actual 10% ammonia concentration drops for fishless cycling into a tank that now contains livestock.

I tried feeding the nerites a couple of times with pieces of nano block that was good for shrimp and snails, and once with a blanched cucumber slice before putting the shrimp in, but the nerites ignored it all (cucumber was removed) and constantly ate the algae and biofilm in the tank instead. There was and still is plenty of that so I let them do their thing. Given the amount of poop they've made they've had plenty to eat and have survived for more than a month. I started doing the nano blocks again after putting in the shrimp, and the shrimp have eaten those (along with the algae/biofilm) I have not been overfeeding, I did the above every other day. (since that has only been a week, just three times so far) with pieces about as thick as a dime but with a diameter of a pencil eraser. They never finished it in under two hours, but it was gone in less than 8. The shrimp and snails have principally been going after the biofilm, there is/was alot of it. It got to grow undeterred on media during the fishless cycle from December to March. They've made a dent in it now, but I just got some Bacter AE delivered.
 

Cherryshrimp420

I know food is the source of ammonia, I meant I am not going to deliberately dose actual 10% ammonia concentration drops for fishless cycling into a tank that now contains livestock.

I tried feeding the nerites a couple of times with pieces of nano block that was good for shrimp and snails, and once with a blanched cucumber slice before putting the shrimp in, but the nerites ignored it all (cucumber was removed) and constantly ate the algae and biofilm in the tank instead. There was and still is plenty of that so I let them do their thing. Given the amount of poop they've made they've had plenty to eat and have survived for more than a month. I started doing the nano blocks again after putting in the shrimp, and the shrimp have eaten those (along with the algae/biofilm) I have not been overfeeding, I did the above every other day. (since that has only been a week, just three times so far) with pieces about as thick as a dime but with a diameter of a pencil eraser. They never finished it in under two hours, but it was gone in less than 8. The shrimp and snails have principally been going after the biofilm, there is/was alot of it. It got to grow undeterred on media during the fishless cycle from December to March. They've made a dent in it now, but I just got some Bacter AE delivered.

I can't guarantee what killed your shrimp, but just to give some perspective: In order to jump start a new tank instantly with 10 cherries, I used 20g volume of used filter media. The total volume of sponges, filter floss, bio-media is 20g which is bigger than your entire tank!

I predominantly keep high-grade cherries which I sell for profit. My general experience has been to stay on the safe side in terms of filter capacity, water volume, tank size etc. Adding 12 blue dreams into a bare 5g with some plants and used media is not something I personally would be comfortable doing regardless of what the tests say.

All in all, maybe you have done everything right and you just got weak shrimp from the shipping process.
 

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