Sick albino paradise gourami

About three weeks ago my year old female albino paradise gourami went from being completely fine to suddenly floating on one side or the other, but still had a healthy appetite.

Of course naturally my first suspicion was that she was constipated or had swim bladder, but after trying every option for both of those and nothing worked, I tried a general cure for infections and bacteria. Still no change.

Then earlier this week, her whole belly gets really swollen on one side and she is contorted in a right angle and has had no change since. I've pulled her out of my tank and put her in an isolated tank. My best guess at this point is that she has Tuberculosis. Anyone else have any suggestions? I would hate to have to euthanize her, she's my favorite fish.

 

Yes, it sounds like Fish Tb. One of my favorite fish got it, he was an albino golden wonder killi, not even a genetically bread to be albino, just happened to be albino, sorry I was babbling.
he developed this issue very slowly over 6 months or so, Which makes me wonder about your fish. Did you try an epsom salt bath?
I did not euthanize my fish until he was too sick to eat. Please consider getting some clove oil so you have it if you need it.

 

Yes, it sounds like Fish Tb. One of my favorite fish got it, he was an albino golden wonder killi, not even a genetically bread to be albino, just happened to be albino, sorry I was babbling.
he developed this issue very slowly over 6 months or so, Which makes me wonder about your fish. Did you try an epsom salt bath?
I did not euthanize my fish until he was too sick to eat. Please consider getting some clove oil so you have it if you need it.

I have not tried a salt bath yet, I wasn't sure if that would be the correct route to go or not. She seems to be in good spirits and still seems to want to eat yet, I've been hand feeding her since she's been on her side but since her face has been pointed down it has been more difficult to feed her. It looks painful

 

Hello and welcome to Fishlore.

Could you fill in this template please: Aquatic Emergency Template | Freshwater Fish Disease and Fish Health Forum | 376562

She has a swollen Swim bladder by the looks of it and likely that is why she is in the position she is in now, however swelling in the swim bladder is a symptom and not the cause of the issue in the first place. We need to figure out what is wrong with her to treat her properly. Filling the template might give us a clue.

Personally I'm not a fan of salt baths especially for soft water fish, I would try either adding tannins(Indian almond leaves or any alternatives) to the tank or set up a hospital tank and do it there. Then daily water changes.

Admittedly I wouldn't give her much of a chance at this point but it's always worth a try.

 

Hello and welcome to Fishlore.

Could you fill in this template please: Aquatic Emergency Template | Freshwater Fish Disease and Fish Health Forum | 376562

She has a swollen Swim bladder by the looks of it and likely that is why she is in the position she is in now, however swelling in the swim bladder is a symptom and not the cause of the issue in the first place. We need to figure out what is wrong with her to treat her properly. Filling the template might give us a clue.

Personally I'm not a fan of salt baths especially for soft water fish, I would try either adding tannins(Indian almond leaves or any alternatives) to the tank or set up a hospital tank and do it there. Then daily water changes.

Admittedly I wouldn't give her much of a chance at this point but it's always worth a try.

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 75 gallons

How long has the tank been running? 3 years

Does it have a filter? Yes

Does it have a heater? Yes

What is the water temperature? 78°F

What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)
2 neon tiger barbs, 2 zebra loaches, 2 clown ruby cichlids, 2 cory catfish, 2 cuckoo catfish, 1 bala shark, 4 three spot gourami (1 opal, 3 blue) 1 albino paradise gourami, 3 roseline torpedo sharks, 6 mollys, and 3 neon tetras. They have all been together in this tank living happily for over a year, no new fish have been added for quite some time

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Once a month

How much of the water do you change? Approximately 20-25% each change

What do you use to treat your water? Weekly vitamins and aquarium salt within freshwater parameters only when changing water

Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? The substrate is vacuumed every time

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? No new fish have been added

What do you use to test the water? Test strip for quick weekly checks, API test drops and tunes for monthly checks

What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
*SEE ATTACHED PHOTO FOR TEST STRIP*

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? 3 times daily

How much do you feed your fish? 3 medium pinches, over about 10 minutes

What brand of food do you feed your fish? Tetramin tropical flakes, Hikari sinking wafers for catfish and loaches

Do you feed frozen? No

Do you feed freeze-dried foods? No

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? A year and a half

How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? 3 weeks ago

In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Contorted spine, swollen stomach, otherwise looks healthy

Have you started any treatment for the illness? Tried not feeding, then feeding pea for constipation, have tried a melafix treatment, and a general disease and infection cure treatment

Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No

How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? Was floating on her side at first, now is at a right angle facing downwards and her stomach looks like it's about to explode


I really hope I'm not to the point of having to euthanize her, but I don't like the idea of her writhing in pain either. I can't let her suffer for much longer if I can't figure out how to fix her
I should also add that everyone else in the tank is perfectly fine

 

Ok I'll try to address potential issues.

2 neon tiger barbs, 2 zebra loaches, 2 clown ruby cichlids, 2 cory catfish, 2 cuckoo catfish, 1 bala shark, 4 three spot gourami (1 opal, 3 blue) 1 albino paradise gourami, 3 roseline torpedo sharks, 6 mollys, and 3 neon tetras. They have all been together in this tank living happily for over a year, no new fish have been added for quite some time

You have quite a few different species with different water requirements. While fish can generally adapt, living in not ideal circumstances can take there toll over time. It likely put's a extra burden on the immune system.

What is the water temperature? 78°F

This is too warm for Paradise fish long term. They are temperate fish ideally you would keep them closer to 70F.

4 three spot gourami (1 opal, 3 blue) 1 albino paradise gourami

These two are especially not a good match, both are regarded as quite aggressive Gourami and don't often tolerate other species of Gourami. A scuffle can result in various injuries and complications.

How often do you change the water? Once a month

How much of the water do you change? Approximately 20-25% each change

Given how high your nitrates are I would recommend changing closer to 25%-50% twice a month to keep on top of things. High nitrates won't be helping anything.

What do you use to treat your water? Weekly vitamins and aquarium salt within freshwater parameters only when changing water

It's generally not recommended to add salt frequently to fresh water tanks. What vitamins are you adding and why?

then feeding pea for constipation

Daphnia is a better alternative for Gourami who are primarily insect eaters.

have tried a melafix treatment

While there is no scientific to back this up(either way) Melafix(also Bettafix) is considered dangerous for Labyrinth fish like Gourami as it apparently coats and damages the organ making it harder for them to breath. Personally I think there's something to the rumors' after researching the primary ingredient Tea tree oil.

I would separate to treat her if you can. It doesn't have to be a big anything that contains water around 5 gallons or more. Add tannins, daily water changes and give her a brake from all other tankmates.

Could you post a photo of the tank?

 

Ok I'll try to address potential issues.

You have quite a few different species with different water requirements. While fish can generally adapt, living in not ideal circumstances can take there toll over time. It likely put's a extra burden on the immune system.

This is too warm for Paradise fish long term. They are temperate fish ideally you would keep them closer to 70F.

These two are especially not a good match, both are regarded as quite aggressive Gourami and don't often tolerate other species of Gourami. A scuffle can result in various injuries and complications.

Given how high your nitrates are I would recommend changing closer to 25%-50% twice a month to keep on top of things. High nitrates won't be helping anything.

It's generally not recommended to add salt frequently to fresh water tanks. What vitamins are you adding and why?


Daphnia is a better alternative for Gourami who are primarily insect eaters.

While there is no scientific to back this up(either way) Melafix(also Bettafix) is considered dangerous for Labyrinth fish like Gourami as it apparently coats and damages the organ making it harder for them to breath. Personally I think there's something to the rumors' after researching the primary ingredient Tea tree oil.

I would separate to treat her if you can. It doesn't have to be a big anything that contains water around 5 gallons or more. Add tannins, daily water changes and give her a brake from all other tankmates.

Could you post a photo of the tank?

Yeah I know the tank needs a water change right now, I myself have been sick for the last few weeks so I haven't gotten a chance to take care of it.

I have been testing the ideal middle ground temperature for all the various species, it does seem like cooler water is better but could water temperature cause her to react like that? I never change the temperature rapidly when I do try a different temp.

I have had fighting with fish and a few deaths because of it but overall for a very long time things have been quiet and calm for a long time now, and none of them presented in this way they clearly had gotten in a fight and lost. My blue three spot gourami are getting quite large now but I spend lots of time watching this tank and Elena has actually always seemed like the black widow, despite her size... she had murdered 3 male paradise mates before I gave up trying to find her a husband LOL

I add the vitamins and salt just to boost their health, the gravel vac to keep the substrate from becoming toxic in between water changes. I have a Marineland filter with 4 carbon cartridges that are changed once a week. The salt is only added in small doses according to the box when water is being changed out.

 

I have been testing the ideal middle ground temperature for all the various species, it does seem like cooler water is better but could water temperature cause her to react like that? I never change the temperature rapidly when I do try a different temp.

It's a possibility, different organisms such as various fungi grow at warmer temperatures the. Paradise fish immune system might not be able to cope with things like that which it would not be natural used to. This is just speculation.

I have had fighting with fish and a few deaths because of it but overall for a very long time things have been quiet and calm for a long time now, and none of them presented in this way they clearly had gotten in a fight and lost. My blue three spot gourami are getting quite large now but I spend lots of time watching this tank and Elena has actually always seemed like the black widow, despite her size... she had murdered 3 male paradise mates before I gave up trying to find her a husband LOL

This is always a possibility when keeping these fish it comes with the territory.
Rather than a pair of Paradise aim for a group like the Three Spots. They are very similar in behaviour when it comes to socializing

I add the vitamins and salt just to boost their health, the gravel vac to keep the substrate from becoming toxic in between water changes. I have a Marineland filter with 4 carbon cartridges that are changed once a week. The salt is only added in small doses according to the box when water is being changed out.

Ok, this is a issue that is costing you whilst likely not doing much to help.

4 carbon cartridges

Carbon should only be used to remove medications after the treatment period and shouldn't be used on a regular basis. You want a filter that doesn't have a cartridge system. Not only are you throwing out a good portion of Nitrifying bacteria but it also costs in the long run. This would also be interfere with medication you have used and likely the other things you add to the tank(not sure on that).

I add the vitamins and salt just to boost their health

You really don't need these products, just feed them and maybe add the occasional frozen food in the mix. This is just costing you money.

the gravel vac to keep the substrate from becoming toxic in between water changes.

I would be very skeptical about this stuff, it has to go somewhere...

You are clearly very passionate about fish keeping, that is obvious from this thread.
I hope you take away even a little of this advice and stop with these products. Either stick a sponge in the filter or get a new one that doesn't rely on cartridges. Maybe use the money you save on them and get hold of a canister filter but those things are very expensive. Air powered sponge filters are great tools.

I would also recommend live plants(even if it's only a few). They help to keep a healthy system. Look into various Anubias or Java Ferns, neither require a substrate and can be stuck onto wood or rocks.

I wish you all the luck and I hope she recovers. Of course if you have more questions ask away.

 

It's a possibility, different organisms such as various fungi grow at warmer temperatures the. Paradise fish immune system might not be able to cope with things like that which it would not be natural used to. This is just speculation.


This is always a possibility when keeping these fish it comes with the territory.
Rather than a pair of Paradise aim for a group like the Three Spots. They are very similar in behaviour when it comes to socializing


Ok, this is a issue that is costing you whilst likely not doing much to help.

Carbon should only be used to remove medications after the treatment period and shouldn't be used on a regular basis. You want a filter that doesn't have a cartridge system. Not only are you throwing out a good portion of Nitrifying bacteria but it also costs in the long run. This would also be interfere with medication you have used and likely the other things you add to the tank(not sure on that).


You really don't need these products, just feed them and maybe add the occasional frozen food in the mix. This is just costing you money.

I would be very skeptical about this stuff, it has to go somewhere...

You are clearly very passionate about fish keeping, that is obvious from this thread.
I hope you take away even a little of this advice and stop with these products. Either stick a sponge in the filter or get a new one that doesn't rely on cartridges. Maybe use the money you save on them and get hold of a canister filter but those things are very expensive. Air powered sponge filters are great tools.

I would also recommend live plants(even if it's only a few). They help to keep a healthy system. Look into various Anubias or Java Ferns, neither require a substrate and can be stuck onto wood or rocks.

I wish you all the luck and I hope she recovers. Of course if you have more questions ask away.

I will have to do some adjusting and I will definitely be gradually lowering the temperature back down. The filters are definitely expensive but I never expected it to be counter productive so I'll be definitely considering other options.

Thank you I love my fish. I've had fish for 6 years, and currently 5 fish tanks in my house (50 gallon, 75 gallon, 110 gallon, 37 gallon and a 3 gallon betta tank) but it seems like every day is still a learning curve LOL

https://www.amazon.com/SunGrow-Gian...ocphy=9015325&hvtargid=pla-358219413791&psc=1

Is this the tannin you're suggesting I treat Elena with? Will there be any dosing instructions or do you have any suggestions how much and how long I should be treating her?
Also, I have tried live plants in that particular tank before and some jerk destroyed them.. maybe wrong kind of plants?

 

I think that it is fine to use the filter cartridges that you already have. Because carbon is only active for a week or 2, just don't use new cartridges unless you need to remove medication from the tank. Rinse the cartridges if they get really messy. you say you have 4? rinse 1, maybe 2 at a time, then wait a month before rinsing the next ones.

I believe that you are over-feeding, consider feeding 1-2 times a day what they can finish in 2 minutes.

You should try to keep schooling fish in schools of at least 6, really more than 6. Many of your fish are schooling fish. Fish can be stressed when they are not kept in proper schools, and they don't always show it in obvious ways. But it is dangerous for the entire tank because stressed fish are vulnerable to diseases like ich.

Bala sharks grow to 14 inches and should be in a school of 8 or so. They may be gentle giants, but fish eat whatever fits in their mouths. I recommend you rehome him or consider a 78-inch long tank for a school of them.

Consider an API or Salifert liquid test kit, the strips are so hard to interpret.
For freshwater fish, salt is an irritant that causes fish to build a thicker layer of slime coating. It is bad for catfish and scaleless fish. It never evaporates, and only some of it is removed during water changes, you will never know when the salinity is reaching dangerous levels unless you purchase a hydrometer, and research each species.

Melafix is not real medication, it is just a tonic, like Vix vapor rub, it should not be used with Labrinth fish like gourami and bettas, that is why they sell the diluted version, "Bettafix" but diluted poison is still poison, I would not use it with any anabantoid fish.

I agree, stop the liquid gravel vacuume stuff, it sounds like snake oil.

 

I think that it is fine to use the filter cartridges that you already have. Because carbon is only active for a week or 2, just dont use new cartridges unless you need to remove medication from the tank. Rinse the cartridges if they get really messy. you say you have 4? rinse 1, maybe 2 at a time, then wait a month before rinsing the next ones.

I beleive that you are over-feeding, consider feeding 1-2 times a day what they can finish in 2 minutes.

You should try to keep schooling fish in schools of at least 6, really more then 6. Many of your fish are schooling fish. Fish can be stressed when they are not kept in proper schools, and they dont always show it in obviose ways. But it is dangerous for the entire tank, because stressed fish are vulnerable to diseases like ich.

bala sharks grows to 14 inches and should be in a school of 8 or so. I recomend you rehome him or consider a 78 inch long tank for a school of them.

I started feeding them 3 times a day when I discovered my albino cory cat missing an eye lol they could definitely be overeating I suppose it seems to be a delicate balance there. I only spread it out over that amount of time to avoid food being wasted by touching the gravel and becoming toxic. I could try backing it off and seeing if that also helps.

As far as the schooling fish.. when I originally got them they were in the correct schooling numbers (except for the bala, I got him by himself) the ones that are left are the winners of the survival of the fittest game haha I haven't bought anymore because I've been considering changing the fish composition of the tank because of the various species fighting. They all seem mellow when you're watching them but as soon as you turn your back they are sharks LOL worse than my convicts and jack dempseys

 

I will have to do some adjusting and I will definitely be gradually lowering the temperature back down. The filters are definitely expensive but I never expected it to be counter productive so I'll be definitely considering other options.

Don't lower it too low the Cuckoo Catfish as well as the Loaches won't appreciate it.

Is this the tannin you're suggesting I treat Elena with? Will there be any dosing instructions or do you have any suggestions how much and how long I should be treating her?

Yes those are the ones. It depends on the volume of the tank but any small aquarium one or two leaves usually does it.

 

Once again , not to be rude, but you have a lot of incompatible species,
The cuckoo catfish can be very aggressive towards any other bottom dwellers, the cories don't stand a chance long term. You should move them to another tank if possible, the neons too.