Shrimp Tank pH Question

Hi Everyone,
Hoping for some input about controlling pH in a new shrimp project. I’m using the fish emergency template to make sure I remember to give all info!

Tank

What is the water volume of the tank? 3.5g TopFin Enchant (mini bow)
How long has the tank been running? About a week
Does it have a filter? TopFin Element (hob)
Does it have a heater? Yes mini heater off amazon
What is the water temperature? 78
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) I have 8 RCS arriving next Tuesday from AquaHuna.

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Will be weekly with the intent of doing weekly WC
How much of the water do you change? 30%
What do you use to treat your water? Prime, Stability on first fill, and NilocG Thrive. Used Fluval Plant and Shrimp Stratum for substrate.
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Used seeded filter media and Marimo balls from established 36g community tank.
What do you use to test the water? API Master FW Kit and API strips for KH and GH.
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 30
pH: 6.2 (Liquid test) / 6.5 (strip)
(GH - 15 / KH - 0)

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? N/A not here yet.
How much do you feed your fish? N/A
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Fluval shrimp granules
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods? Hoping to do blanched veggies once settled in.

My Issue:
We have always had stable pH in our main tank, so maybe I foolishly jumped the gun thinking it would transfer to our new project. Set up the tank earlier in the week, using seeded media with great results - parameters have remained 0/0/30 since day one. The pH however took a dive today, starting out around 7.2, but at 6.0 today. There is very little agitation from the filter and no air stone. Live plants include Anubias, Marimo moss balls, octopus plant trimming and two unknown plants. The only change I have made was adding the plants and removing some rocks to accommodate the plants.
Should I play with the pH/GH/KH levels? If so what would you all recommend to do so? Did the removed rocks cause this? I can add some back but it’s already well planted.
Any help would be super appreciated! Thanks!

 

Is KH really zero? Is tap water KH zero? I think you probably need at least KH 2 to keep pH stable.

Just learning about this. But if your tap water has a KH of at least 2, you may need to do a water change.

When you use the API KH test kit, it is my understanding that you count all drops. So the lowest you can get is one. However, if it turns green almost instantly, then it may effectively be close to zero. If it turns green slowly then it may be closer to one.

Some online tutorials state that you do not count the first drop. So then if it turns green on the first drop, then it would be zero. The best explanation I have heard is count all drops. And gauge the result based on how fast it turns color. If it takes four drops and turns color really fast on the fourth drop it is closer to three. If it barely turns color slowly, then it is closer to four. The API instructions are a bit vague. IMO

Chanyi may have some thoughts. He is a water chemistry guru.

richiep is the local shrimp expert

 

Actually the KH and GH readings are off a strip test, I’ll have to find the liquid testing for that! The rest of the parameters are from the liquid kit. My main tank strip shows GH 30 KH 40

weird right? Both tanks are treated in the same manner. Only the substrate is different.

 

In my experience, my tap water was at 0 KH and my PH would always fluctuate. There are mix feelings in the community about KH/GH buffers because it can be inconsistent but for myself I managed to get my PH stable at whatever level I want with a KH buffer. I use Seachem Alkaline Buffer when I do water changes and my ph stays at the same level that I want it to be. That being said, it is weird that your main tank's PH is fine when the other is not.

If you decide to use a KH buffer, just make sure to use it slowly (low amounts) at first so you can grasp how it affects the PH and not shock your fish. One day it'll become a routine of how much you put in during water changes, etc.

 

Actually the KH and GH readings are off a strip test, I’ll have to find the liquid testing for that! The rest of the parameters are from the liquid kit. My main tank strip shows GH 30 KH 40

weird right? Both tanks are treated in the same manner. Only the substrate is different.

GH 30 would be about 2 degrees. KH 40 would be 2 or 3 degrees. Sometimes a newly cycled tank will eat some KH and a water change will fix it.

A very small amount of KH buffer goes a long way. Must be really careful not to over-do with that. Some people recommend crushed coral as a means of boosting KH in a gentle and safe way. I have never done that.

 

In my experience, my tap water was at 0 KH and my PH would always fluctuate. There are mix feelings in the community about KH/GH buffers because it can be inconsistent but for myself I managed to get my PH stable at whatever level I want with a KH buffer. I use Seachem Alkaline Buffer when I do water changes and my ph stays at the same level that I want it to be. That being said, it is weird that your main tank's PH is fine when the other is not.

If you decide to use a KH buffer, just make sure to use it slowly (low amounts) at first so you can grasp how it affects the PH and not shock your fish. One day it'll become a routine of how much you put in during water changes, etc.

Thank you! Great information, will keep that in mind. I trust Seachem products, they have done me well so far. I’m going to see if I can get my hands on the liquid testers for GH and KH - I think this will be important moving forward before adding things. I put the rocks back in, to see if it makes a difference.

 

You may want to reconsider that 30% water change. Most of the experienced shrimp keepers I've read or watched recommend no more than 15% at any one time since shrimp are so sensitive to changes in water parameters.

 

I think you probably need at least KH 2 to keep pH stable.

Just learning about this. But if your tap water has a KH of at least 2, you may need to do a water change.

0.5 degrees of kH is enough to keep pH stable so long as regular water changes are performed to replenish what little kH there is.

Both tanks are treated in the same manner. Only the substrate is different.

What are your substrates?

You may want to reconsider that 30% water change. Most of the experienced shrimp keepers I've read or watched recommend no more than 15% at any one time since shrimp are so sensitive to changes in water parameters.

Neo shrimp is what @KSo is stocking, neo shrimp are fairly hardy and can live well in tanks of 50%+ weekly water changes so long as things are consistent.

 

At the moment you have a week old tank albeit setup with used media you tank is not stable and won't be for a while your current gh3 is going to kill your shrimp it needs to be gh8 at best and d I think you are seeing a difference in the two tanks because is stability, if you are having ph swings like you say that will kill your shrimp, you kk is probably not stable allowing the ph to jump and a swing higher than 0.5 other way will kill your shrimp, setting up a small tank anything below 5g i say is small takes a lot of work to get it stable, all this is probably what you don't want to hear and I don't mean to offend.
Some shrimp are kept at 0kh but that figure is normally closer to 1kh which is enough to stable your ph but this can only be reached with a stable tank and the use of ro water, the minimum time I have ever put shrimp into a new tank is 1 month even then things can go dramatically wrong if you don't get it right

 

0.5 degrees of kH is enough to keep pH stable so long as regular water changes are performed to replenish what little kH there is.




What are your substrates?



Neo shrimp is what @KSo is stocking, neo shrimp are fairly hardy and can live well in tanks of 50%+ weekly water changes so long as things are consistent.

I am thinking that the change in my GH/KH is what sunk my pH.
My main tank is a mix of CaribSea Floramax and fine almost sand like gravel. The shrimp tank I went with Fluval Plant and Shrimp Stratum.
I was unclear on the WC comment, I have seen most online sources saying anywhere from none to 50%. I’ll know better through parameter checks to be safe.

At the moment you have a week old tank albeit setup with used media you tank is not stable and won't be for a while your current gh3 is going to kill your shrimp it needs to be gh8 at best and d I think you are seeing a difference in the two tanks because is stability, if you are having ph swings like you say that will kill your shrimp, you kk is probably not stable allowing the ph to jump and a swing higher than 0.5 other way will kill your shrimp, setting up a small tank anything below 5g i say is small takes a lot of work to get it stable, all this is probably what you don't want to hear and I don't mean to offend.
Some shrimp are kept at 0kh but that figure is normally closer to 1kh which is enough to stable your ph but this can only be reached with a stable tank and the use of ro water, the minimum time I have ever put shrimp into a new tank is 1 month even then things can go dramatically wrong if you don't get it right

It may not be what I want to hear, but it’s not offensive at all! You are sharing your knowledge and experience which is the main reason I am here. I have a few days (literally) to figure this out, and I did know I was taking a chance. I have a real KH/GH test arriving this weekend, the rocks are back in to see if that had any play in this as these changes happened overnight. Thanks for your input!

 

It may not be what I want to hear, but it’s not offensive at all! You are sharing your knowledge and experience which is the main reason I am here. I have a few days (literally) to figure this out, and I did know I was taking a chance. I have a real KH/GH test arriving this weekend, the rocks are back in to see if that had any play in this as these changes happened overnight. Thanks for your input!

Ok to try and help you on your way change out the water for your main tank water don't use tap water this way you may get some stability in you new tank then short term do you small tank water changes 15% from your large tank which is stable, any plants will have biofilm on and ornaments,
This is an option which may work it will also help with acclamation as you can take water from one tank and keep filling the small one this will allow you to drip longer

 

I am thinking that the change in my GH/KH is what sunk my pH.
My main tank is a mix of CaribSea Floramax and fine almost sand like gravel. The shrimp tank I went with Fluval Plant and Shrimp Stratum.
I was unclear on the WC comment, I have seen most online sources saying anywhere from none to 50%. I’ll know better through parameter checks to be safe.

Fluval shrimp and plant substrate is designed to strip kH and thus drops pH.

Completely normal.

50% isn't needed in a shrimp only tank unless running higher ferts for plants.

Smaller are typically recommended, but generally neo's can handle larger changes.

 

So I just left a YouTube video that explained the Fluval Stratum effect and then came here and saw your reply - d’oh! Do I switch out the substrate? Or add a kH buffer if the liquid tests show the same results as the strips? (Sorry I’ve been obsessing over this tank all day, this is why having a string of days off is bad for me haha)

 

Just my opinion, and I’ve never kept shrimp so big grain of salt, but I’d avoid trying to do too many things to fix all the problems. I think most fishkeepers end up doing more harm sometimes trying to fix something, than deciding on a course of action and sticking to it. If going the route of buffering, I’d consider CC since it’s one of the safer ways to do that.

 

Do I switch out the substrate?

Nope

Or add a kH buffer if the liquid tests show the same results as the strips?

No, you would be worsening the problem trying to fight against the substrate by adding kH.

What is the kH of your source water?

If it's not too high, just use as is and let the substrate strip the kH and buffer the pH.

 

Source water looks like GH 30 KH 20 pH 7.4 (again this is from strips which I know have room for error). The liquid tests I’ve done on the water show ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are 0. Can’t remember the liquid test result for pH tho.

 

As mentioned, aquasoils like Fluval stratum are designed to strip KH and lower pH. They're mostly meant for use with caridina shrimp, which absolutely require these parameters, but neocaridina like cherries can live on an active substrate too. I kept my cherries on fluval stratum with the GH boosted to 6 degrees (about 107 ppm) and all was good. Don't add KH, it'll just wear out the buffering capacity faster. Once the buffering capacity wears out in a year or two - probably later rather than sooner since your tap KH is only 20 ppm? - you'll need to add more active substrate or slowly introduce them to tap water.

 

Well my little dudes are here. 7/8 survived from AquaHuna (they issued an immediate refund which was cool). I drip acclimated them for 1.5 hours, then netted them into the tank. So far so good, they’re exploring the tank and seem really active after the initial shock of shipment wore off. Apologies for the craptastic photos, the acrylic tank doesn’t photograph quite as well as my glass tank. Fingers crossed!

 

Ah! You write in the original post that you were getting RCS, red cherry shrimp, but these are crystal red shrimp, CRS!

In this case, you NEED that KH and pH drop from the substrate. Also you're lucky your tap KH is so low, because most crystal shrimp keepers have to use RO water to keep KH low during water changes.

Have you gotten a liquid GH/KH test? Really essential for these shrimp, and a TDS meter may also be a good idea. They're cheap on eBay and you can calibrate them in distilled water.

If your tap and tank GH are less than 3 or 4 degrees, it's a good idea to get a GH booster. 3-5 ish is a good range for CRS to prevent molting issues.

 

Thanks Mak!
I can’t believe I convinced myself I had gotten RCS, can we tell all this covid overtime at the hospital is making me insane?? I did get the liquid tests!
Here are the current parameters:
Temp 78
PH 6
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 20-30
KH 0
GH 3
From looking around online, I found www.theshrimpfarm.com, which states the following


Is this way off? I need to remove the mini heater, now that the weather is warming up. In addition to the one that didn’t make it in transit, I did come home to find 2 more dead. I will say the two that died didn’t have the best coloring from the jump and never brightened up remaining slightly opaque - the ones that only had one red block of color. The remaining 5 are more colorful, with the 3 bands of white/red, and remain active. I’m hoping it was just bad stock? I got these from AquaHuna. The ones I gave my neighbor were from FlipAquatics and looked better? I thought AH was one of the more recommended sites. So it could have been something I did. I don’t know. Is there a way to boost KH?

 

Thanks Mak!
I can’t believe I convinced myself I had gotten RCS, can we tell all this covid overtime at the hospital is making me insane?? I did get the liquid tests!
Here are the current parameters:
Temp 78
PH 6
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 20-30
KH 0
GH 3
From looking around online, I found www.theshrimpfarm.com, which states the following
View attachment 700445
Is this way off? I need to remove the mini heater, now that the weather is warming up. In addition to the one that didn’t make it in transit, I did come home to find 2 more dead. I will say the two that died didn’t have the best coloring from the jump and never brightened up remaining slightly opaque - the ones that only had one red block of color. The remaining 5 are more colorful, with the 3 bands of white/red, and remain active. I’m hoping it was just bad stock? I got these from AquaHuna. The ones I gave my neighbor were from FlipAquatics and looked better? I thought AH was one of the more recommended sites. So it could have been something I did. I don’t know. Is there a way to boost KH?

All that info in the picture is accurate! I did forget to mention they do best at a temperature in the low to mid 70s.

Sorry to hear that they died Personally I actually haven't heard of AquaHuna. It might've been bad luck, caridinas are a little more sensitive than neos.

You don't need to boost KH and any KH you add will be removed by the substrate, wearing out its buffering capacity faster.

 

Have you tested for copper level? The fertilizer has been polluting your tank with trace copper ions. CRS are especially susceptible to copper poisoning

 

Have you tested for copper level? The fertilizer has been polluting your tank with trace copper ions. CRS are especially susceptible to copper poisoning

Um, it’s Fluval plant and shrimp substrate, so no, no copper there and I don’t use any meds or additives that aren’t shrimp safe.

 

All that info in the picture is accurate! I did forget to mention they do best at a temperature in the low to mid 70s.

Sorry to hear that they died Personally I actually haven't heard of AquaHuna. It might've been bad luck, caridinas are a little more sensitive than neos.

You don't need to boost KH and any KH you add will be removed by the substrate, wearing out its buffering capacity faster.

The next step will be trying to get a couple that are from my lfs. We get all our fish from one store and have had great luck since we started the main tank. It’s getting more humid now and the shrimp shipped from WA to MA. I didn’t think shrimp could stress me the heck out but here we are!

 

What do you use to treat your water? Prime, Stability on first fill, and NilocG Thrive.

I had never heard of Thrive prior to your post, so I did a quick search. The NilocG website reports that the only fertilizer in the Thrive line (Thrive, Thrive+, ThriveC, ThriveS) that is completely copper free is ThriveS. They provide the following information for the Thrive fertilizer, which reports an albeit small but appreciable Cu content, which tends to bioaccumulate over long term use.

Guaranteed Analysis
Total Nitrogen (N) 2.5600%
2.5600% Water Soluble Nitrogen (N)
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 1.5800%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 9.7400%
Magnesium(Mg) 0.3200%
0.3200% Water Soluble Magnesium(Mg)
Calcium(Ca) 0.0200%
Sulfur(S) 0.5400%
0.5400% Combined Sulfur(S)
Boron(B) 0.0080%
Copper(Cu) 0.0002%
0.0002% Water Soluble Copper(Cu)
Iron(Fe) 0.4200%
0.4200% Water Soluble Iron(Fe)
Manganese(Mn) 0.1680%
0.1680% Water Soluble Manganese(Mn)
Molybdenum(Mo) 0.0006%
Zinc(Zn) 0.0038%
0.0038% Water Soluble Zinc(Zn)

 

I use the C one, which I guess says 0.0001% copper, if dosed properly, and in truth I have only dosed once in that tank. I purchased that one because the online info I found said it was shrimp safe.That’s disappointing. I really hope that isn’t the issue. I really did want to give these guys a fair shake, given all the stumbles along the way, my heart was in the right place.

 

Also just noticed you wrote “fertilizer” not “substrate”. Reading is rough before coffee

 

I had never heard of Thrive prior to your post, so I did a quick search. The NilocG website reports that the only fertilizer in the Thrive line (Thrive, Thrive+, ThriveC, ThriveS) that is completely copper free is ThriveS. They provide the following information for the Thrive fertilizer, which reports an albeit small but appreciable Cu content, which tends to bioaccumulate over long term use.

Guaranteed Analysis
Total Nitrogen (N) 2.5600%
2.5600% Water Soluble Nitrogen (N)
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 1.5800%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 9.7400%
Magnesium(Mg) 0.3200%
0.3200% Water Soluble Magnesium(Mg)
Calcium(Ca) 0.0200%
Sulfur(S) 0.5400%
0.5400% Combined Sulfur(S)
Boron(B) 0.0080%
Copper(Cu) 0.0002%
0.0002% Water Soluble Copper(Cu)
Iron(Fe) 0.4200%
0.4200% Water Soluble Iron(Fe)
Manganese(Mn) 0.1680%
0.1680% Water Soluble Manganese(Mn)
Molybdenum(Mo) 0.0006%
Zinc(Zn) 0.0038%
0.0038% Water Soluble Zinc(Zn)

Many many people on this forum and other places use Thrive as well as Flourish and other fertilizers with copper. It's such a small amount that it's insignificance. Inverts have hemocyanin for blood unlike our hemoglobin. Hemocyanin is copper based. They need trace amounts

OP please do not worry about it

 

So it’s been a few days... we are down to 3 - this has been rough! But the 3 we have seem fine, swimming around, inspecting the tank and eating along the way. We are going to see how they do through the weekend and maybe if all is good, hit up our lfs to see their stock. I don’t think they were a bad stock, but they did have a **** of a journey from WA to MA during a particularly humid and hot week.
We are also going to ditch this acrylic 3.5g tank, for a standard 5g glass tank. (Of course knowing myself I won’t ditch this tank and it’ll prob end up housing a betta again lol

 

So it’s been a few days... we are down to 3 - this has been rough! But the 3 we have seem fine, swimming around, inspecting the tank and eating along the way. We are going to see how they do through the weekend and maybe if all is good, hit up our lfs to see their stock. I don’t think they were a bad stock, but they did have a **** of a journey from WA to MA during a particularly humid and hot week.
We are also going to ditch this acrylic 3.5g tank, for a standard 5g glass tank. (Of course knowing myself I won’t ditch this tank and it’ll prob end up housing a betta again lol

Oh no can you post your current tank parameters?

 

Oh no can you post your current tank parameters?

Temp 76
GH 4
KH 0/1 - it was yellow/greenish with 1 but super yellow with 2 gtt)
pH 6.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates between 20-40.

Still need to snag a TDS meter, will do today.

 

Temp 76
GH 4
KH 0/1 - it was yellow/greenish with 1 but super yellow with 2 gtt)
pH 6.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates between 20-40.

Still need to snag a TDS meter, will do today.

Nitrates may be a little high... but otherwise looks good.
Larger, more established tank might be a good idea though

 

Guess I’ll use this post as a journal of this whole Shrimp Debaucle!

TDS meter came in, we are at 167
pH - 6.2
gH - 2
kH - 0
Temp - 71
Ammonia and Nitrite - 0
Nitrate is still a bit high at 30, removed some plants that were looking suspect, and will retest later today. Would do a WC but... I did a thing yesterday ...

Which leads me to their upgraded tank. I hated the 3.5g bow acrylic they were in, the substrate was crowded, and the lighting was close to nonexistent. I prefer glass and wanted to be able to better upgrade lighting in the future.



So now they’re in a 5.5g glass tank with glass lid and temporary lighting. Opted for a sponge filter after discussing with my lfs the possibility of getting 1 or 2 pregnant females for me - if things continue in a positive direction. Added some floating plants, everything was brought over from the previous tank (with exception of filter, it didn’t fit unfortunately). Planning a WC pending new parameters today. Added the little stone decoration that’s been a staple in my old betta tanks for good luck and the Mighty 3 have already taken a liking to it. Santa Amazon Prime Claus is bringing me a new light tomorrow as well.

So, fingers and toes heavily crossed.

 

Ok my mighty 3 are still going strong.
Tank Parameters - 5.5g
Temp; 70
pH 6.6
NH3/NH4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 20
gH: 2
kH: 2
TDS: 127
I did a WC today, so I’ll have to recheck in the morning. I’m happy I’ve been able to keep these guys alive. They appear content, they bop around the tank well. Happy update.

 

Yay!! That's great news.
You might want to bump up the GH a bit to ensure good molting

 

My (neo) shrimp tank had the same issue, my tap KH is near 0 so the pH would drop from 7.5 to below 6 in 3-4 days and a 10% water change would bring it back up to 7.5. To prevent the swing I keep a small pouch of crushed limestone hanging in the tank which keeps the pH steady at 7.5 and KH at 4.

 

My (neo) shrimp tank had the same issue, my tap KH is near 0 so the pH would drop from 7.5 to below 6 in 3-4 days and a 10% water change would bring it back up to 7.5. To prevent the swing I keep a small pouch of crushed limestone hanging in the tank which keeps the pH steady at 7.5 and KH at 4.

How often do you need to change the coral and whats the size of tank

 

How often do you need to change the coral and whats the size of tank

It's 5.5g and I haven't had to change it yet since I put it in about 3 months ago.

 

Yay!! That's great news.
You might want to bump up the GH a bit to ensure good molting

Yeah it’s looking that way, not sure which route to go but prob will try Seachem’s booster, just confused as to how to use - will research tonight.

today’s parameters:
TDS 131
Temp 69 (AC is running in room)
kH 0
gH 1
pH 6.0
NH3/NH4 0
NO2 0
NO3 10-20

no behavior changes from the WC yesterday. All 3 are accounted for and hard at work doing shrimpy things.

 

I'm not familiar with seechem booster but I do know with those latest readings Salty bee gh+would do the job sorry for intruding -Mak-