Should I Let Ammonia Drop To 0 Ppm?

You should be able to put the foam on the bottom, and then both bags of biomax on top. I know this means moving both bags to clean the foam, but the reason I suggest this arrangement is because... and somebody correct me if I'm wrong... but I believe the Aquaclear filters draw water in, in a way that filters it from bottom to top, meaning most of the dirtiest water goes through the bottom media first. The foam insert is usually referred to as a mechanical filter. It's job, along with being a home for beneficial bacteria, is to trap waste within it's pores. The cleaner water should then filter through the bio media. This should in theory help keep the pores of the bio media from clogging with gunk that should be trapped in the mechanical media.

Because these filters are designed to use a bag of activated carbon, that isn't really designed to do either of these previous functions, I feel it is more up to the user which type of media they would prefer to have more of. The mechanical media does provide two functions, both mechanical and bio, so either the sponge or the biomax will serve our purpose. Do you personally have a preference on how you do this? Either way, the bonus of having so much bio media available in this tank, also means that you will have media to use in another tank if you ever suffer from the dreaded MTS like so many of us have or did here on Fishlore.

If you still have the instructions for your filter, I do believe it will tell you in there how they recommend stacking the filter media. Check and see what position they want the mechanical media. My memory is good, but it's not perfect.

Ok... the pH being higher from your tap and starting to go down in your tank, with high levels of nitrate being present, makes sense to me. Not the high nitrates part, considering your system doesn't seem to be able to clear your ammonia in a 24 hour period, but the pH dropping part...that part makes sense to me.

How long after dosing the ammonia do you wait to test the ammonia concentration in the tank to make sure you are dosing to 2ppm?

 

I had to go back to the start of this thread to refresh my memory of where we are and what we are trying to accomplish.

It is good that you have removed the carbon. Since it really isn't something that needs to be there removing it gives us one less thing to be concerned about.

Adding more of the same media that is already in the filter or a different kind of sponge shouldn't matter. The more bio-media one has the more area the bacteria has to grow on. It could be that there wasn't enough in there to hold enough bacteria to complete this cycle. I don't think that is the problem but can't know for sure so removing the carbon and adding more bio-media is a good idea.

Was that PH reading of 8.0 taken on water straight from the tap or water that has set for 24 hours?

I am not sure removing your deco was necessary in this case. I don't think it was causing what we are seeing here but it is again removing one more thing that could be causing this stall.

Once you add the extra media to the filter I truly do believe a 90% water change will get this cycle up and working as it should. All of the bacteria you have worked so hard to grow so far will still be there but it will be like starting with a clean slate when it comes to impurities in the water. The water should have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and possibly very low nitrites.

You should know fairly quick if it helped if the ammonia you add after the water change is gone the next day as it should.

 

You should be able to put the foam on the bottom, and then both bags of biomax on top. I know this means moving both bags to clean the foam, but the reason I suggest this arrangement is because... and somebody correct me if I'm wrong... but I believe the Aquaclear filters draw water in, in a way that filters it from bottom to top, meaning most of the dirtiest water goes through the bottom media first. The foam insert is usually referred to as a mechanical filter. It's job, along with being a home for beneficial bacteria, is to trap waste within it's pores. The cleaner water should then filter through the bio media. This should in theory help keep the pores of the bio media from clogging with gunk that should be trapped in the mechanical media.

Because these filters are designed to use a bag of activated carbon, that isn't really designed to do either of these previous functions, I feel it is more up to the user which type of media they would prefer to have more of. The mechanical media does provide two functions, both mechanical and bio, so either the sponge or the biomax will serve our purpose. Do you personally have a preference on how you do this? Either way, the bonus of having so much bio media available in this tank, also means that you will have media to use in another tank if you ever suffer from the dreaded MTS like so many of us have or did here on Fishlore.

If you still have the instructions for your filter, I do believe it will tell you in there how they recommend stacking the filter media. Check and see what position they want the mechanical media. My memory is good, but it's not perfect.

Ok... the pH being higher from your tap and starting to go down in your tank, with high levels of nitrate being present, makes sense to me. Not the high nitrates part, considering your system doesn't seem to be able to clear your ammonia in a 24 hour period, but the pH dropping part...that part makes sense to me.

How long after dosing the ammonia do you wait to test the ammonia concentration in the tank to make sure you are dosing to 2ppm?

I think I'll go with the sponge but I'll just go out to the Pet Store and get it. It's cheaper than Amazon because they sell it by 1-packs instead of 3. I also just read reviews about the BioMax filter package containing less pieces than what came with the filter itself, so it's probably not worth it. I also like the idea of the sponge being both a mechanical and bio filter like you said.

I always test the ammonia after 24 hours. I've confirmed to myself that adding 20 drops of Ammonium Chloride equals 0.50ppm.

I had to go back to the start of this thread to refresh my memory of where we are and what we are trying to accomplish.

It is good that you have removed the carbon. Since it really isn't something that needs to be there removing it gives us one less thing to be concerned about.

Adding more of the same media that is already in the filter or a different kind of sponge shouldn't matter. The more bio-media one has the more area the bacteria has to grow on. It could be that there wasn't enough in there to hold enough bacteria to complete this cycle. I don't think that is the problem but can't know for sure so removing the carbon and adding more bio-media is a good idea.

Was that PH reading of 8.0 taken on water straight from the tap or water that has set for 24 hours?

I am not sure removing your deco was necessary in this case. I don't think it was causing what we are seeing here but it is again removing one more thing that could be causing this stall.

Once you add the extra media to the filter I truly do believe a 90% water change will get this cycle up and working as it should. All of the bacteria you have worked so hard to grow so far will still be there but it will be like starting with a clean slate when it comes to impurities in the water. The water should have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and possibly very low nitrites.

You should know fairly quick if it helped if the ammonia you add after the water change is gone the next day as it should.

After our discussion yesterday I filled up a cup with water and let it sit for 24 hours before doing the PH test.

 

I
After our discussion yesterday I filled up a cup with water and let it sit for 24 hours before doing the PH test.

Good deal. It is hard to know what is causing the fluctuation in the PH level in the tank,. I do know the cycling process often causes it to drop but normally doesn't make it go up like your has been doing before going back down.

I also know that we can get different PH reading if we measure first thing in the morning and then again late afternoon so at this point I don't think it is something we need to concern ourselves with.

 

I think it would be a good idea to add your drops of ammonia, and let it move throughout the system for an hour, and then do a test on the tank to make sure you aren't accidentally using more ammonia than you need to reach 2ppm. You don't have to do it every time, just once to verify you are dosing correctly. With ammonia still being present, miscalculations happen. Then of course you would measure it again 24hrs later as you usually do.

Good deal. It is hard to know what is causing the fluctuation in the PH level in the tank,. I do know the cycling process often causes it to drop but normally doesn't make it go up like your has been doing before going back down.

I also know that we can get different PH reading if we measure first thing in the morning and then again late afternoon so at this point I don't think it is something we need to concern ourselves with.

This really only happens in a planted tank due to the plants using co2 throughout the day, and switching to respiring co2 at night. This process does affect pH, but Shade89's tank doesn't have live plants. Therefore the pH should be pretty much the same throughout.

Edit. Sorry mods! I use to be able to merge my own posts when I pulled a bone headed move like this, but I don't seem to be able to do that anymore, or at least I haven't figured out how to. I'll pay you with compliments if you don't mind tidying up behind me from time to time! Or... you can give me 30 lashings if it will make you feel better. (that little guy with the whip is missing too. Mike, I want my smiley's back!)

 

This really only happens in a planted tank due to the plants using co2 throughout the day, and switching to respiring co2 at night. This process does affect pH, but Shade89's tank doesn't have live plants. Therefore the pH should be pretty much the same throughout.

Thank you that info. If that is the case then I am totally stumped as to why the ph fluctuates so much in this tank.

 

Well, I'll try to shed some light on how I think it is happening. Shade89, could I bother you to test your pH straight from the tap for me? I'm lazy and don't want to go hunting through the thread to see if you say what it is before aerating.

 

Just saw your post toosie. I did the tests straight from the tap just now and got this:

PH: 7.6
High Range PH: 7.4


I went out and got the foam insert so I'll be adding that shortly followed by mattgirl instructions for a 90% change.

 

Thank you that info. If that is the case then I am totally stumped as to why the ph fluctuates so much in this tank.

Ok, so here is what I think is happening as far as the pH fluctuations are concerned.

Shade89 started the cycling process with water that originally started out at a pH of 7.4 and the pH increased once it was in the tank to it's aerated pH of 8.0 (possibly higher if the water hadn't stabilized fully during the aeration process based on a past reading of 8.4). As the cycling process commenced and nitrification progressed, nitrates started accumulating to high levels. The nitrification process creates acids as a byproduct which slowly lowers pH and KH and the acids decrease the buffering capacity of the water. When Shade89 started seeing the really high nitrates, he states in one of the posts that he did water changes to bring the levels down. This of course accomplished two things. It diluted some of the accumulated acids from nitrification and replenished the buffering capacity of the water bringing the pH up again. Hence why he has been experiencing the up and down pH activity.

 

Ok here's just a quick recap and update:

Yesterday I did the 90% water change and added the 2nd foam filter after removing the activated carbon a couple days before. I also removed the 3 large decorations. These were the readings after the water change:

Temperature: 80-81F
PH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 10


I then dosed the ammonia to 1.5ppm (I tested it 1 1/2 hours later to confirm and it was indeed at 1.5ppm). 24 hours later these are the readings:

Temperature: 80-81F
PH: 8.2
Ammonia: 1 - 1.5 (but closer to 1ppm)
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 10

 

Well shoot. I was really hoping for a very different report as I am sure were you

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Maybe it is time to either go ahead and get the ammonia back out of there with water changes and get some fish or leave the ammonia and add another bottle of TSS+ and hope it works better this time.

PH - 8.0 after setting for 24 hours
PH - 7.6 straight from tap
PH - 7.6 in tank after big water change
PH - 8.2 in tank after 24 hours in tank

I am not sure the above has anything to do with what is happening with this cycle but something is causing the rise in the PH. What kind of substrate do you have in there? Could it possibly be limestone based?

I am just brainstorming here. I am thinking whatever is messing with the PH is also keeping the bacteria from growing.

 

I think we need to bring the pH down. 25% - 50% RO water would be the most stable method I think. Don't know how you feel about that though. I don't want you to do anything you're uncomfortable with. You can choose to wait for a while yet if you want to and give this last 90% water change a chance to do something. At least we have a better handle on what your tap water pH is doing, thanks to the two tests you did. Now we know right after a water change the ph will be lower than after a 24hr period. It could be the reason itself, without the cycle affecting it, (as I had described in my last post) if you have been testing the water in the same manner as you described in this post. It looks to be the same up and down as you described before.

I am not sure the above has anything to do with what is happening with this cycle but something is causing the rise in the PH. What kind of substrate do you have in there? Could it possibly be limestone based?

Yeah, I didn't realize he was testing right after a water change in the above post, but we do now. I don't think anything other than the natural change in the pH of his tap water is affecting it.

 

I think we need to bring the pH down. 25% - 50% RO water would be the most stable method I think. Don't know how you feel about that though. I don't want you to do anything you're uncomfortable with. You can choose to wait for a while yet if you want to and give this last 90% water change a chance to do something. At least we have a better handle on what your tap water pH is doing, thanks to the two tests you did. Now we know right after a water change the ph will be lower than after a 24hr period. It could be the reason itself, without the cycle affecting it, (as I had described in my last post) if you have been testing the water in the same manner as you described in this post. It looks to be the same up and down as you described before.

Do you feel like the high PH could be why this tank isn't cycling? I do know a lot of folks do have an even higher PH and can still successfully cycle a tank.

My thoughts are something is causing both things we are seeing. Both the fluctuating PH and the incomplete cycle. I just don't know what that thing is.

 

Do you feel like the high PH could be why this tank isn't cycling? I do know a lot of folks do have an even higher PH and can still successfully cycle a tank.

My thoughts are something is causing both things we are seeing. Both the fluctuating PH and the incomplete cycle. I just don't know what that thing is.

I think the fluctuating pH is due just to his tap water. We seen it do it in his sample test. I have seen high pH tanks cycle too. I have also seen high pH tanks not want to cycle. Is it definitely caused by pH? Nope, it's just a guess. I guess we could have him remove everything out of the tank and just try to cycle a bare tank. That would eliminate everything but the water, and the products he is using to treat the water and the ammonia he is using to cycle with. If he's willing. Would that be ok with you?

 

I guess I can start by removing all of the plants. Removing the gravel doesn't sound thrilling (and I sure hope this isn't the issue). I got the gravel from Petco (Imagitarium brand). I might try TSS+ again but I'll give it a few days and see if anything magically happens.

 

I guess I can start by removing all of the plants. Removing the gravel doesn't sound thrilling (and I sure hope this isn't the issue). I got the gravel from Petco (Imagitarium brand). I might try TSS+ again but I'll give it a few days and see if anything magically happens.

I can't imagine it being the gravel or the plastic plants causing what we are seeing. If there is no movement in the ammonia level in a couple of days another round of TSS could very well jump start this cycle.

 

I agree. I was just unsure how to determine if something other than the natural shift in pH was being contributed to by something else, and also affecting the cycle, as mattgirl had hypothesized. I'm ok with the idea of trying TSS and giving it time too.

 

I don't know much about healing sick fish because I've never had to deal with sick fish and I don't know much about plants because after years and years in this hobby I am just now getting into live plants so am just now learning.

The one thing I do know a little about is cycling a tank. I am like a dog with his favorite bone when it comes to getting to the bottom of why a tank refuses to cycle.

I wish now that I'd not mentioned the deco causing a problem in one tank I was helping with. I was just using it as an example of what we finally found was causing the high nitrites in that tank. I was close to throwing in the towel on that one but it wasn't making sense and I was determined to get to the bottom of it. Fortunately we finally did. It took a lot of patience on the part of the lady that was doing all the work but in the end she ended up with a perfect Betta home with perfect perimeters.

Something is causing this tank not to process the ammonia. I am determined to get to the bottom of the problem. Something is causing the PH to swing wildly. I know high nitrites/nitrates can affect it but I have dealt with lots of cycling problems and normally the higher levels don't cause these kind of PH swings.

In this case I may be reaching for straws and the PH swings have nothing to do with the stalled cycle. My hope is that the huge water change will give this tank a new lease on life and the bacteria will start growing.

If not then maybe the addition of TSS+ will. Just be sure should you decide to try it again to wait at least 24 hours after adding a water conditioner before pouring the TSS in there.

As toosie suggested. It is possible that your source water is the problem and mixing RO, spring or regular drinking water with your tap water may become necessary. Right now we just don't know.

You have been very patient Shade89 And I am hoping that patience will soon pay off.

 

I don't think the pH swings are a problem because I don't think there is an actual pH swing. I had assumed originally Shade89 was doing a pH test before a water change and that at that time it was reading lower, and I attributed that to the cycle lowering the pH as I explained in that one post. But I think Shade89 has actually been doing the tests after a water change which is why the lower pH numbers are the same as the one straight from the tap. The pH rises because the CO2 gases trapped in the new water get released into the atmosphere and the water's CO2 and the air's CO2 equalize, just like when he aerated his sample. In the sample, this process was maybe not quite finished. But we can tell from that 24hr test he did, that the pH of that water will stabilize high.

If Shade89 hasn't been checking the pH after water changes when these lower numbers appeared, then I will be confused as to what is going on with the pH again. But I think the high numbers represent before water change pH and the lows are after water change pH. Shade89, would this be correct?

 

But I think the high numbers represent before water change pH and the lows are after water change pH. Shade89, would this be correct?

That is correct.

 

Just one more update:

PH: 8.4
Ammonia: 0.50
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 10-20


I'm going to get another bottle of TSS+ on Monday and also get the additional bio-max filter. The second sponge doesn't leave much room for my current BioMax media and it's sticking out too much above the water. I had said that the replacement biomax filters come with less pieces but it might be a good thing if it fits.

Crossing my fingers that this next time around will be better

 

I have mine crossed for you too.

 

I had a tremendously long post outlining water parameters and how they are inter-related but I deleted it.

The problem is not the water, it is the tank owner chasing a number. Every time the measured value is not what is expected, something is added to change the value.

Guidelines that may help for freshwater aquariums.

THE GOLDEN RULE-PATIENCE.

1. If you're going to use tap water, the pH is going to be in a range on any given day.
2. Wherever you buy your fish, odds are the store is using the same source of water (freshwater).
3. Chase maintenance, not numbers. Water changes every week, sometimes twice, if I have a day off. Vacuum.
4. Overfilter. Focus on mechanical and biological. Chemical filtration does not remove the cause of any chemical problem. Our 60l has an Eheim canister 250, rated for tanks 80-150l. It's pimped with Seachem Matrix biological media. It gets rinsed every two weeks.Additionally, I have built another filter that holds filter media in a 300ml bottle. The water is crystal clear.
5. You are not making the water in the tank suitable for your fish, rather, you are trying to create an ecosystem that maintains good water quality for longer and longer periods of time.
6. Deep substrate 3-4 inches.
7. Plants-anubias nana and/or anything that doesn't drop leaves. If you are concerned about CO2 removal by underwater plants, find some surface plants that get their CO2 from the atmosphere not the water.

8. LET NATURE TAKE ITS COURSE!!!

I made all the mistakes that you did, especially chasing numbers. Killed 4 fish. Threw the test kit out the window and started to learn as much about the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen cycles, water chemistry, and finally, employed common sense. I hate to see you suffer.

27 fish in a 15 gallon tank. The secret? Over-filtration.
DIY filter made from a powerhead. The idea is to remove as much detritus as possible before it hits the canister.

Your tank is cycled or as close as you are going to get it.

Good luck!

 

I had a tremendously long post outlining water parameters and how they are inter-related but I deleted it.

The problem is not the water, it is the tank owner chasing a number. Every time the measured value is not what is expected, something is added to change the value.

Guidelines that may help for freshwater aquariums.

THE GOLDEN RULE-PATIENCE.

1. If you're going to use tap water, the pH is going to be in a range on any given day.
2. Wherever you buy your fish, odds are the store is using the same source of water (freshwater).
3. Chase maintenance, not numbers. Water changes every week, sometimes twice, if I have a day off. Vacuum.
4. Overfilter. Focus on mechanical and biological. Chemical filtration does not remove the cause of any chemical problem. Our 60l has an Eheim canister 250, rated for tanks 80-150l. It's pimped with Seachem Matrix biological media. It gets rinsed every two weeks.Additionally, I have built another filter that holds filter media in a 300ml bottle. The water is crystal clear.
5. You are not making the water in the tank suitable for your fish, rather, you are trying to create an ecosystem that maintains good water quality for longer and longer periods of time.
6. Deep substrate 3-4 inches.
7. Plants-anubias nana and/or anything that doesn't drop leaves. If you are concerned about CO2 removal by underwater plants, find some surface plants that get their CO2 from the atmosphere not the water.

8. LET NATURE TAKE ITS COURSE!!!

I made all the mistakes that you did, especially chasing numbers. Killed 4 fish. Threw the test kit out the window and started to learn as much about the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen cycles, water chemistry, and finally, employed common sense. I hate to see you suffer.

What's in the tank?
27 fish in a 15 gallon tank. The secret? Over-filtration.
DIY filter made from a powerhead. The idea is to remove as much detritus as possible before it hits the canister.

Your tank is cycled or as close as you are going to get it.

Good luck!

I agree with you up to a point. There are certain numbers one doesn't want to chase. PH is one. Stable is preferred over a specific number. Hopefully the PH in this case will stabilize once the cycle is complete.

You have learned what works for you and how to work with your source water. I have learned what works for me. Shade89 is learning what works for him.

Do you have any ideas as to why this tank won't process ammonia or why it processes it so slowly? In my humble opinion a tank that won't process ammonia is a death box for fish.

 

I agree with you up to a point. There are certain numbers one doesn't want to chase. PH is one. Stable is preferred over a specific number. Hopefully the PH in this case will stabilize once the cycle is complete.

You have learned what works for you and how to work with your source water. I have learned what works for me. Shade89 is learning what works for him.

Do you have any ideas as to why this tank won't process ammonia or why it processes it so slowly? In my humble opinion a tank that won't process ammonia is a death box for fish.

If you are asking me, it is processing ammonia.



The TAN numbers that he gave show it. Prime + Dr. Tim's is a crazy combination. I take my tap water, dose with Prime, add it to my tank, read TAN, dose with Dr. Tim's. What do you think happens to the ammonium chloride when the Prime reacts with the Dr. Tim's? This is the ammonium chloride reaction in water: NH4Cl(solid) = NH4+(aqueous) + Cl-(aqueous). The problem is that Dr. Tim's is a liquid and I cannot get my hands on the Material Safety Data Sheet to see what else, if anything, is in it.

If you take tap water, dose with Prime and wait 2 days, the ammonia that was bound by the Prime is released. Because we are adding NH4Cl, when the ammonia is released, then less ammonia needs to be added. Chlorine, Cl in tap water is not a problem; chloramine, NH2Cl, is and if present that is the primary reason to use Prime, along with any heavy metals that may be present. In a water source with only Cl used in it, sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, is a better choice.

The point is that his tank is cycling ammonia; it continues to be processed through nitrites and straight into nitrates!

Stable pH is the goal-absolutely.

Yes, Miss Matti, we do have to discover what works.

 

I just read this entire thread and it was torture. I can't imagine waiting 5 months to cycle a tank, I wouldn't have the patience. No this situation isn't ideal of course, everyone wants to see a strong cycle before adding fish, but BUT, if I was you I would just add your fish. Don't over stock it, and keep testing your water. You may have to do some extra water changes if your cycle can't keep up, but it is processing ammonia. Put some fish in there imo.

 

I really don't mind the long waiting. I'm just more concerned about getting it properly cycled. It seems like most people can get their tanks cycled without fish, there shouldn't be any reason why I can't also. It's just a matter of having that patience while I try different things. If I add fish and things don't work out it might be more discouraging for me like mattgirl said earlier. I know I came here for help and I appreciate all the opinions but as some of you mentioned I just have to find what works for me.

 

I really don't mind the long waiting. I'm just more concerned about getting it properly cycled. It seems like most people can get their tanks cycled without fish, there shouldn't be any reason why I can't also. It's just a matter of having that patience while I try different things. If I add fish and things don't work out it might be more discouraging for me like mattgirl said earlier. I know I came here for help and I appreciate all the opinions but as some of you mentioned I just have to find what works for me.

Well, this thread has been accused of changing too many things but really the main things that are needed to cycle an aquarium are, water, filter with media and ammonia, none of which have been discontinued, so the important elements have remained in place. pH hasn't been manipulated, only discussed, temp has been increased but nothing has been done that would prevent the tank from cycling. And I admire the man's patience and tenacity, so we'll cycle this tank to a level you feel comfortable with Shade89. I'm with you.

 

If you are asking me, it is processing ammonia.

View attachment 536181
The TAN numbers that he gave show it. Prime + Dr. Tim's is a crazy combination. I take my tap water, dose with Prime, add it to my tank, read TAN, dose with Dr. Tim's. What do you think happens to the ammonium chloride when the Prime reacts with the Dr. Tim's? This is the ammonium chloride reaction in water: NH4Cl(solid) = NH4+(aqueous) + Cl-(aqueous). The problem is that Dr. Tim's is a liquid and I cannot get my hands on the Material Safety Data Sheet to see what else, if anything, is in it.

If you take tap water, dose with Prime and wait 2 days, the ammonia that was bound by the Prime is released. Because we are adding NH4Cl, when the ammonia is released, then less ammonia needs to be added. Chlorine, Cl in tap water is not a problem; chloramine, NH2Cl, is and if present that is the primary reason to use Prime, along with any heavy metals that may be present. In a water source with only Cl used in it, sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, is a better choice.

The point is that his tank is cycling ammonia; it continues to be processed through nitrites and straight into nitrates!

Stable pH is the goal-absolutely.

Yes, Miss Matti, we do have to discover what works.

Thank you. I'm not sure why we are talking about Prime + Dr. Tims though.

Prime is the water conditioner being used in this case. In a fishless cycled it only has to be used when doing a water change. Any of the many water conditioners can be used but Prime is what the OP has. Prime releases the ammonia after 24 hours. The only reason I mentioned Prime is because it will interfere with the TSS he plans on using so I wanted him to be aware of how to use it.

I am a firm believer in Prime when one is doing a fish in cycle though.

The main problem with this particular tank is the fact that it doesn't process the ammonia down to zero and the ammonia it does process is processed very slowly. Some folks can't accept good enough and I am one of them. There is a reason as to why this tank won't do it so I will stick with Shade89 until he is either sick of trying and just puts fish in there or we finally find out what is causing this strange cycling process.

 

Thank you. I'm not sure why we are talking about Prime + Dr. Tims though.

Prime is the water conditioner being used in this case. In a fishless cycled it only has to be used when doing a water change. Any of the many water conditioners can be used but Prime is what the OP has. Prime releases the ammonia after 24 hours. The only reason I mentioned Prime is because it will interfere with the TSS he plans on using so I wanted him to be aware of how to use it.

I am a firm believer in Prime when one is doing a fish in cycle though.

The main problem with this particular tank is the fact that it doesn't process the ammonia down to zero and the ammonia it does process is processed very slowly. Some folks can't accept good enough and I am one of them. There is a reason as to why this tank won't do it so I will stick with Shade89 until he is either sick of trying and just puts fish in there or we finally find out what is causing this strange cycling process.

Thank you Matti, allow me to explain through an example.

Say we have water with 0 TAN, we add Prime. Then we use Dr. Tim's dose the ammonia.

Do the Prime ammonia binding agents just disappear from the water?

From Seneye:

"USING SEACHEM PRIME?

Testing for ammonia with the test kits above might produce false readings after a water change if you add to much de chlorinator. Seachem's Prime conditioner will give false readings for ammonia, on both Nessler's Reagent and salicylate tests. Sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, in Prime reacts with the chloride ion that is part in the test reagents. According to Seachem after 24 hours you will then be able to test again and get accurate readings."
Ammonia Test Kit

From Seachem FAQ:

"I am using Prime® to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on?


A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime® complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit; it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (total ammonia is both free ammonia and non-toxic ionized forms of ammonia)."

Seachem - Prime

Why Dr. Tim's, that is NH4Cl...

From the same Seachem source:

"I tested my tap water after using Prime® and came up with an ammonia reading. Is this because of chloramine? Could you explain how this works in removing chloramine?


A: Prime® works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime® will not halt your cycling process.

I am going to assume that you were using a liquid based reagent test kit (Nessler based, silica). Any type of reducing agent or ammonia binder (dechlorinators, etc) will give you a false positive. You can avoid this by using our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit (not affected by reducing agents) or you can wait to test, Prime® dissipates from your system within 24 hours."

Chloramine is NH2Cl

Here's an easy to understand chemistry lesson on ammonia and chloramine (you'll have to scroll down):



In summary then:

1. He's adding an ammonia binder to his water.
2. Then adds ammonia.
3. Then measures the ammonia with a method that can/may/does give an inaccurate value.
4. Then takes actions based upon inaccurate data.

As you said, Prime does interfere with the cycle with it's binding method. Prime can, in fact, bind ammonia for up to 48 hours.

Yes, we all have to discover "our own way" Miss Matti, but this gentleman is fighting chemistry and creating his own nightmare. He is attempting to hit a moving target while at the same time he is moving the very same target that he is trying to hit.

Apologies, Miss Matti, I do not mean to offend nor am I arguing against those discovering how to do things. I look at the data. The data are clear. The tank is cycling. The cause of a non-zero ammonia reading can very well have nothing to do with the cycling process but with the testing agents used and how they are used.

Additionally, just because one follows the manufacturer's directions of use to the letter does not mean that the manufacturer has knowledge of the other products that one uses.

 

Thank you Matti, allow me to explain through an example.

Say we have water with 0 TAN, we add Prime. Then we use Dr. Tim's dose the ammonia.

Do the Prime ammonia binding agents just disappear from the water?

From Seneye:

"USING SEACHEM PRIME?

Testing for ammonia with the test kits above might produce false readings after a water change if you add to much de chlorinator. Seachem's Prime conditioner will give false readings for ammonia, on both Nessler's Reagent and salicylate tests. Sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, in Prime reacts with the chloride ion that is part in the test reagents. According to Seachem after 24 hours you will then be able to test again and get accurate readings."

Ammonia Test Kit

From Seachem FAQ:

"I am using Prime® to control ammonia but my test kit says it is not doing anything, in fact it looks like it added ammonia! What is going on?


A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime® complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit; it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (total ammonia is both free ammonia and non-toxic ionized forms of ammonia)."

Seachem - Prime

Why Dr. Tim's, that is NH4Cl...

From the same Seachem source:

"I tested my tap water after using Prime® and came up with an ammonia reading. Is this because of chloramine? Could you explain how this works in removing chloramine?


A: Prime® works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime® will not halt your cycling process.

I am going to assume that you were using a liquid based reagent test kit (Nessler based, silica). Any type of reducing agent or ammonia binder (dechlorinators, etc) will give you a false positive. You can avoid this by using our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit (not affected by reducing agents) or you can wait to test, Prime® dissipates from your system within 24 hours."

Chloramine is NH2Cl

Here's an easy to understand chemistry lesson on ammonia and chloramine (you'll have to scroll down):



In summary then:

1. He's adding an ammonia binder to his water.
2. Then adds ammonia.
3. Then measures the ammonia with a method that can/may/does give an inaccurate value.
4. Then takes actions based upon inaccurate data.

As you said, Prime does interfere with the cycle with it's binding method. Prime can, in fact, bind ammonia for up to 48 hours.

Yes, we all have to discover "our own way" Miss Matti, but this gentleman is fighting chemistry and creating his own nightmare. He is attempting to hit a moving target while at the same time he is moving the very same target that he is trying to hit.

Apologies, Miss Matti, I do not mean to offend nor am I arguing against those discovering how to do things. I look at the data. The data are clear. The tank is cycling. The cause of a non-zero ammonia reading can very well have nothing to do with the cycling process but with the testing agents used and how they are used.

Additionally, just because one follows the manufacturer's directions of use to the letter does not mean that the manufacturer has knowledge of the other products that one uses.

I am very well aware of the fact that Prime doesn't remove the ammonia. The test available to us will still show an ammonia reading if it is there even after prime has been added. The API test doesn't know the difference between ammonia and ammonium. Most of the time I actually state that very fact. This time I didn't.

Prime isn't being added to this tank to neutralize the ammonia. It was added when the tank was first set up. It was added again when the huge water change was done. It was added as a water conditioner (its main purpose) to treat for chlorine/chloramines.

The ammonia that was left in the tank was released withing 24/48 hours. Any ammonia still in this tank and what he adds is now free ammonia and is available as food for the bacteria.

I thoroughly believe and will state again. A fully cycled tank should not have an ammonia reading. If there is one it means something is preventing the bacteria from processing all of it through to nitrates.

That is where Shade89 finds himself at this point. This is what we are trying to get to the bottom of.

 

I have somewhat good news I think. Here was yesterday's readings:

PH: 7.4 - 7.6 (This is becoming weird again since I didn't add any water or do any water changes)
Ammonia: 1.25 - 1.50
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates 10 - 20

After the test I added the second BioMax media that I purchased (So I have the old sponge on the bottom, old BioMax in the middle, and new BioMax on top). Everything now fits below the water line in the HOB filter. After that I turned off my filter and added a full bottle of TSS+ directly over the filter media itself. I'm not sure if that would have made any difference since it basically spit it all out into the tank once I turned on the filter again but just thought I'd try something different. I then added 20 drops of Ammonium Chloride to try and bring the ammonia up to 2.0ppm. 24 hours later here are the results:

PH: 7.4 - 7.6
Ammonia: 0.50
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 40-80 (I say 40-80 because the colors for 40 & 80 look so similar)

So it seems like it's processed about 1.50ppm of ammonia in 24 hours which is a step up from the usual 0.50ppm. I'm thinking maybe I should bring the ammonia up to 1.5ppm and test again tomorrow?

 

I have somewhat good news I think. Here was yesterday's readings:

PH: 7.4 - 7.6 (This is becoming weird again since I didn't add any water or do any water changes)
Ammonia: 1.25 - 1.50
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates 10 - 20

After the test I added the second BioMax media that I purchased (So I have the old sponge on the bottom, old BioMax in the middle, and new BioMax on top). Everything now fits below the water line in the HOB filter. After that I turned off my filter and added a full bottle of TSS+ directly over the filter media itself. I'm not sure if that would have made any difference since it basically spit it all out into the tank once I turned on the filter again but just thought I'd try something different. I then added 20 drops of Ammonium Chloride to try and bring the ammonia up to 2.0ppm. 24 hours later here are the results:

PH: 7.4 - 7.6
Ammonia: 0.50
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 40-80 (I say 40-80 because the colors for 40 & 80 look so similar)

So it seems like it's processed about 1.50ppm of ammonia in 24 hours which is a step up from the usual 0.50ppm. I'm thinking maybe I should bring the ammonia up to 1.5ppm and test again tomorrow?

That is good news. I think what I would do though is see if ammonia will go to zero. It isn't going to slow the cycle to go one day without adding ammonia. If it goes to zero go ahead and dose the ammonia back up to 2ppm but let it go as low as it can before adding any more. If it still stalls at .5 for a couple of days then you may want to go ahead and add more but give it a chance to see what it is going to do.

We know that you have some of all the right kinds of bacteria so this cycle is working. Hopefully adding the TSS gave it the jump start it needed for what ever reason.

Just a though. Are you absolutely positive that your ammonia reading is .5? I know I have seen a LOT of folks reporting that they never get a true zero reading for ammonia. They always show at least .25. I have to think they don't really have any ammonia and it is just the test giving a false reading.

The fact that you have no nitrites and your nitrates are constantly rising is telling me that this cycle should be done.

I wanted to add. If this tank will process 1.5 ppm ammonia in 24 hours there is no reason why it won't process the full 2ppm ammonia you add. I have to think the cycle isn't the problem. I have to think it is the test.

 

Yeah, I agree, you still have .5 ammonia so leave it for another day anyhow, before dosing more ammonia. We'll just continue to observe the pH, the SafeStart may have played a role in lowering it. I don't know what the pH of that stuff is, so don't be concerned about what you are seeing there right now.

 

That is good news. I think what I would do though is see if ammonia will go to zero. It isn't going to slow the cycle to go one day without adding ammonia. If it goes to zero go ahead and dose the ammonia back up to 2ppm but let it go as low as it can before adding any more. If it still stalls at .5 for a couple of days then you may want to go ahead and add more but give it a chance to see what it is going to do.

We know that you have some of all the right kinds of bacteria so this cycle is working. Hopefully adding the TSS gave it the jump start it needed for what ever reason.

Just a though. Are you absolutely positive that your ammonia reading is .5? I know I have seen a LOT of folks reporting that they never get a true zero reading for ammonia. They always show at least .25. I have to think they don't really have any ammonia and it is just the test giving a false reading.

The fact that you have no nitrites and your nitrates are constantly rising is telling me that this cycle should be done.

The color on the chart matches 0.50 almost exactly. That one time in the past when I let it drop to 0 it wasn't pure yellow like the chart shows but I'm sure it was below 0.25. I'll let it stay where it is right now and test again in 24 hours. If I'm still awake after about 10-12 hours I can do another ammonia test also.

If the testing is the problem do you think it's just my test kit in particular that might be bad or should I try a different product?

 

I wanted to add. If this tank will process 1.5 ppm ammonia in 24 hours there is no reason why it won't process the full 2ppm ammonia you add. I have to think the cycle isn't the problem. I have to think it is the test.

It looks to me like the TSS gave a boost. I think there is a very good chance it will cycle 2ppm ammonia very soon. Let's just watch and wait.

 

Yeah, I agree, you still have .5 ammonia so leave it for another day anyhow, before dosing more ammonia. We'll just continue to observe the pH, the SafeStart may have played a role in lowering it. I don't know what the pH of that stuff is, so don't be concerned about what you are seeing there right now.

It's still strange because the PH lowered before I added TSS+.

 

It's still strange because the PH lowered before I added TSS+.

Ok, we'll take note of that.

 

The color on the chart matches 0.50 almost exactly. That one time in the past when I let it drop to 0 it wasn't pure yellow like the chart shows but I'm sure it was below 0.25. I'll let it stay where it is right now and test again in 24 hours. If I'm still awake after about 10-12 hours I can do another ammonia test also.

If the testing is the problem do you think it's just my test kit in particular that might be bad or should I try a different product?

I would be very tempted to buy a new API testing kit for ammonia if you are still registering .5 ammonia tomorrow. Right now I am just guessing that it might be the test. I just can't come up with a logical reason for the lingering ammonia reading when we know that there is enough bacteria to process 1.5ppm ammonia. If it will process that much it should process all of it.

 

I would be very tempted to buy a new API testing kit for ammonia if you are still registering .5 ammonia tomorrow. Right now I am just guessing that it might be the test. I just can't come up with a logical reason for the lingering ammonia reading when we know that there is enough bacteria to process 1.5ppm ammonia. If it will process that much it should process all of it.

I was just thinking...Shade89, have you ever done an ammonia test on your tap water? If the test kit is faulty, the tap water will also possibly test at .5 ammonia. Maybe you can try this with untreated tap as well as treated with prime tap. It might help indicate whether or not it's necessary to buy a new kit.