Should I Create An In Depth Ram Guide?

I've been breeding/keeping German Blue and Bolivian Rams for a few years. There seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread on other sites. I noticed that there are a consistent amount of questions regarding these fish, so, I was wondering if people would appreciate an in depth guide on these fish. This would include sexing, breeding, water parameters, behavior, and general information. Let me know what you all think!

 

You should defintly do that! I'd use it as I love the little guys and hopefully I can get a pair soon... I'm sure you already have photos, but I have some pretty good photos of the breeding tubes that I use for examples. If you decid to make the article and would like to use them just let me know. I hope you can make the article!

 

Yes please! I just picked up a pair yesterday and have a ton of ?'s already which I'm about to post some now.

 

not only do I think this is a great idea, but I think this communityt updating all of fishlores pages would be a good idea in general

 

Awesome everyone I'll get started. Feel free to message me with current questions!

 

I'll apologize in advance for all the ?'s that I'll send.

 

Don't apologize, I enjoy talking about it What section would I put it in? This one?

Guide will be coming out later tonight everyone!

 

Awesome! Yes, you'd put it in the "ram cichlid" section.

 

If anyone has any useful information they would like to share with me, now's your chance!

 

I voted yes. Even though I don't have rams, I find them interesting. Thanks!

 

Been a bit of a delay everyone, tomorrow is more likely! Apologies.

*Update* I've been busy with college and work, but it's coming soon everyone!

 

Will you be posting a link once complete to this thread? I have a two but have some questions about them. Seller said they were a pair but they don't seem to be. Might have to separate them

 

.

 

I would LOVE for you to post a guide! I am planning on getting two, but have to let my tank mature! And as they are expensive Freshwater fish I def. don't want to kill them! Questions will be coming!

Post a link when its done!

 

I'd question how it was known they're a pair. From what I read, simply having a male & a female doesn't mean they'll necessarily become a couple. It was unquestionable a pair of blue rams I bought are a breeding pair - they were taking turns guarding their eggs at the LFS when I bought them!

True, most sites state that you need to get a group and let them decide who is copulating with whom lol, however that have not been the case in my experience. More than once I put a single couple in a 10 gallon and have them breeding in a few days. It will be great to hear what has Aquaticj experienced in this regard. And yes Aquaticj go for the guide please it will be much appreciated.

 

I'd question how it was known they're a pair. From what I read, simply having a male & a female doesn't mean they'll necessarily become a couple. It was unquestionable a pair of blue rams I bought are a breeding pair - they were taking turns guarding their eggs at the LFS when I bought them!

He said that he'd been watching the group and that they had paired off. I started a thread on it with a picture of each. Problem I have is one is an albino and hard to determine the sex Question: - Ram Pair No Longer Getting Along

True, most sites state that you need to get a group and let them decide who is copulating with whom lol, however that have not been the case in my experience. More than once I put a single couple in a 10 gallon and have them breeding in a few days. It will be great to hear what has Aquaticj experienced in this regard. And yes Aquaticj go for the guide please it will be much appreciated.

They LFS I purchased them from had a group they had been watching. The guy there had noticed these two pairing off and was pretty confident they would. To be honest I'm not particularly hoping they do because I don't know what i'd do with a bunch of the little guys! I just want them to not hurt each other though. From what I've seen I'm mostly worried the other isn't getting enough food if the other chases him off all the time.

 

Love the support from everyone! I'm currently working on the guide! In short, pairs are usually paired off for life. However, i've experienced "breakups" if I move the pair. Feel free to private message me.

 

Awesome!

 

Can't wait! So much contradictory information out there.

 

Sorry it's taking me so long everyone!

 

Definitely yes. Can't wait to read. BTW I was lucky enough to buy four 2 males two female. One male was small the other was almost mature. The bigger male paired of with my more beautiful female. Been 2 months later and noticed that the younger/small male that is not so small anymore has paired of with my other female. Hoping on eggs soon

 

That's great vinsgirl !

and it's fine, just waiting eagerly!!

 

Please include the stages of age and maturing. I'm always wondering when mine will develop colors and even reach maturity.

Thanks for taking this on.

 

And how to pair and find pairs from the fish store.

 

My deepest apologies everyone! I've been battling Camallanus worms in my Rams, it's a terrible parasite that has taken two of my favorite fish. That, on top of working and school, has really prevented much progress on this. I was hoping my pair would have fry soon so I could use the pictures in the guide...unfortunately the male had to be euthanized today. He had been laying on his side for hours, still breathing faintly, finally I decided that I needed to stop his suffering.

 

I'm so sorry. that's really sad . Its just fine, I think we all understand that other things come first to something like this!

 

Question: I've cept Bolivians in two separate mature planted tanks for 1+ years, and they've been healthy, happy and fun.

In the same two tanks (100GaL), I tried keeping electric blue, golden, and German blue (pre and post bolivians, not with them), all of which seemed to have extreme problems and die off within a month.

Is there some stark difference in care between an electric blue/gold and a Bolivian?

All of these were the non-balloon variety.

 

toustous I know it's not recommended but I'm keeping my bolivians and Germans together. The bolivians was a gift from hubby after I had the Germans. So I can't exchange them and I'm not letting go of the Gbr's either. They all doing incredibly well together. As for Ur question I don't think that there is any difference in caring for them though the bolivians are hardier than the Gbr's.

 

toustous I know it's not recommended but I'm keeping my bolivians and Germans together. The bolivians was a gift from hubby after I had the Germans. So I can't exchange them and I'm not letting go of the Gbr's either. They all doing incredibly well together. As for Ur question I don't think that there is any difference in caring for them though the bolivians are hardier than the Gbr's.

It's temp compatibility and if your Bolivians become aggressive toward the gbr they have a good size advantage.
I'm not certain but I believe keeping a fish at a warmer temp will accelerate the metabolism so that's decreased life span, maybe increase chance of disease too.

 

So sorry! (((

 

Hate hearing about your loss. Sending you good vibes and hoping you're feeling up to being back at it soon! We all appreciate your posts and willingness to share your knowledge. I just LOVE Rams. Take all the time you need!

 

Question: I've cept Bolivians in two separate mature planted tanks for 1+ years, and they've been healthy, happy and fun.

In the same two tanks (100GaL), I tried keeping electric blue, golden, and German blue (pre and post bolivians, not with them), all of which seemed to have extreme problems and die off within a month.

Is there some stark difference in care between an electric blue/gold and a Bolivian?

All of these were the non-balloon variety.

Basically the biggest difference is temperature. German blues/gold originate from the Orinoco River that flows around/through Venezuela and Colombia, so essentially right on the equator. This means HOT, year round. A "cold day" here would be in the 70's. Usually during most of the months, the day time temperature is high 80s to mid 90s. The Bolivian Ram originates from the Amazon River basin in northern Bolivia. While still very close to the equator, it makes all the difference (altitude also plays a role). Usual day time temperatures here are still in the lower/mid 80s, with more fluctuations. They both like soft, acidic water, with the Bolivians preferring closer to neutral. With that being said, you wouldn't want to keep wild caught Germans with wild caught Bolivians, but you definitely can keep captive bred together. I've done it and am currently doing so, you just have to meet in the middle at about 80 degrees. As others mentioned, the Bolivians are extremely hardy fish, and I've actually kept healthy Bolivians in 82 degree water. Now to address the sensitivity of the GBR, in short, it all comes back to where they originate and selective breeding. Due to stable hot temperatures, transportation of these fish involve large fluctuations in temperature and are a huge cause for disease (and weakens their immune system in general). GBR are captive bred to look as colorful and vibrant as possible, selective breeding just causes problems. I won't go into detail with the selective breeding because this is already a long post, but I would read up on the subject. These are pictures from google I found real quick to show you the difference between a wild Ram and a selectively bred Ram.

Wild (probably more likely first/second generation captive):

Hate hearing about your loss. Sending you good vibes and hoping you're feeling up to being back at it soon! We all appreciate your posts and willingness to share your knowledge. I just LOVE Rams. Take all the time you need!

My coworkers just can't understand my obsession with them and thank you for the condolences!

 

F1s best of both worlds.

Basically the biggest difference is temperature. German blues/gold originate from the Orinoco River that flows around/through Venezuela and Colombia, so essentially right on the equator. This means HOT, year round. A "cold day" here would be in the 70's. Usually during most of the months, the day time temperature is high 80s to mid 90s. The Bolivian Ram originates from the Amazon River basin in northern Bolivia. While still very close to the equator, it makes all the difference (altitude also plays a role). Usual day time temperatures here are still in the lower/mid 80s, with more fluctuations. They both like soft, acidic water, with the Bolivians preferring closer to neutral. With that being said, you wouldn't want to keep wild caught Germans with wild caught Bolivians, but you definitely can keep captive bred together. I've done it and am currently doing so, you just have to meet in the middle at about 80 degrees. As others mentioned, the Bolivians are extremely hardy fish, and I've actually kept healthy Bolivians in 82 degree water. Now to address the sensitivity of the GBR, in short, it all comes back to where they originate and selective breeding. Due to stable hot temperatures, transportation of these fish involve large fluctuations in temperature and are a huge cause for disease (and weakens their immune system in general). GBR are captive bred to look as colorful and vibrant as possible, selective breeding just causes problems. I won't go into detail with the selective breeding because this is already a long post, but I would read up on the subject. These are pictures from google I found real quick to show you the difference between a wild Ram and a selectively bred Ram.

Wild (possibly first generation captive):


Captive:

Why does everyone suggest 75 and below of Bolivians and 80+ for gbr?

 

First, German Rams are a line bred fish that was developed in Germany. They have very dark black markings, and usually reduced blue spangling. They are a very hardy strain, easily maintained, but not very available these days. Rams from the Orinoco basin are wild Common or Orinoco Rams; the Orinoco does not run through Germany, so they cannot all be called German Rams.

The term "German Blue" was invented by Asian breeders who saw that people wanted the German strain because of its hardiness, so they started calling theirs "German Blue" to make people think that the fish were just as hardy. Commercially bred Rams from the Asian market are weak because they are raised in very crowded conditions and heavily treated with antibiotics to prevent disease. As a result, they have no resistance, and any that make it to stores alive tend to be very weakened. However, if you can get them to survive for a few weeks, they should be fine.

Bolivian Rams come from higher altitudes, which means cooler temperatures. I would not suggest much below 75 for them, but certainly no higher than 78. M. ramirezi comes from lowland areas of shallow water that are exposed to direct sunlight most of the time, making the water quite warm, often even into the 90s. The temperature differences are not as pronounced when one takes commercially bred fish into account, as these are lines that have proven adaptable to a wider range of conditions.

Personally, having bred both species and having seen full grown adults, I believe the Bolivian at higher temperatures gets feisty and wants to breed. They are bigger and heftier than the regular Rams, and therefore will come out on top in any confrontations. I have never kept the two together, and those who have generally are talking about juvenile Bolivians, even if they don't realize it. I have seen 4 inch male Bolivians, and many 3 inch fish. M. ramirezi is lucky to reach 2.5 inches.

 

Line bred is the same as selectively bred, but at the end of the post I said I didn't want to go into the selective breeding, but thanks for taking the time to explain. German Rams and Orinoco Rams are still the same species, but like you said, have been line bred to look a lot different. Same species, different strains, but still share the same water qualities. I have (and currently am) kept the two together, but like I said, you wouldn't want to keep the wild strains together. I intended for this guide to be more geared towards captive bred Rams, because that's what is most likely at a pet store. I only have one privately owned fish store around me that sells captive and wild, and he has them in separate tanks. (if he even has them in)

 

I thought it was named German blue ram because a German was the first to breed in captivity. The history should be included in the guide as a second edition if you have the time. This thread is already informative.

I thought you said Bolivians are usually wild in waters in the mid 80s so would keeping them at 80 just bring out their natural feisty behavior?

 

Their waters in the wild do not get into the 80s, the air temperatures do. The water is usually 8-10 degrees F. cooler.

 

Ah. Makes perfect sense now so that would put Bolivian waters at mid 70s and gbr at high 70s to mid 80s?

 

Air temperatures where ramirezI come from get into the 100+ range, according to acquaintances who have collected there.

 

chromedome52 Do you mind if I quote your post during the guide?

And yes, it gets uncomfortably hot in the area they're native to.