Setup a self-sustaining tank (food-wise)

Ive read about frozen fish food auto feeders. Ive never been into auto feeders that kinda the main reason we own pets is to watch them eat, grow and interact.

I'm just not that into feeding. But believe me I spend hours on end watching my current tank and I can't wait to setup a second. I'm away from home at the moment and I miss my fish a lot.

To each his own (way of appreciating their fish)

These are my 3 opinions:

1) red cherry shrimp (rcs) - probably your best bet once they are established and breeding, which may take about a month. But you'll have to provide plenty of hiding spots and plants. They love grazing Java fern and driftwood.

2) for snails: bladder, ramshorn, and mts. I would just ask for bladder snails when you go to local fish stores. Most places want to get rid of them and will give them to you for free. They may or may not reproduce fast enough for you. Usually that involves supplemental feeding and depends on the tenacity of your puffer. Same deal with ramshorns, but adults are too big, but you could always crush them in their shell. MTS would be my preference. They help aerate the substrate and will typically breed no problem. Over breeding is usually from over feeding. These snails do have a tough shell, which is a problem for all puffers, except pea puffers. These little guys suck the snails out of their shells instead of crushing them so you'll be fine.

3) the only worms that I know of that will work are black worms, which are fantastic. They will burrow in the substrate and may stick out once in awhile, are an excellent protein source, and will also aerate your substrate. You could just keep these in the fridge, in water, which will have to be cleaned often. I had them establish a colony once in the past (mainly with shrimp) but haven't had luck since, especially with carnivores.

All of these you would have to get established ahead of adding the puffer, but all are definitely possible. Just note, a 30G is going to be HUGE for 3 dwarf puffers. Not that it's a bad thing, but you might not see them and can easily put more fish in there, or even go with other puffer species.

@MJDuti, have you been following this thread? You seemed to say it could be done. Everybody else seems to say it's likely to fail. What do you think now? How would you do it? What would you add – if anything – on top of live food, pea puffers and bb gobies to this tank's stock?

 

The celestial danios are quite small, and, their ability to destroy smaller things are quite limited. E.g. they are smaller than most adult dwarf shrimp. I have not seen them have a large impact on my shrimp population. However, given very small worms (e.g. less than one half an inch), they may make some of them food. Also realize that puffer fish may chase them or annoy them, these fish are primarily prey fish and are relatively peaceful fish that eat scraps.

You are going to need to feed and have a denitrate tower sort of thing if you want it to be self-sustaining, but you still need to monitor its effectiveness. If you want something self sustaining then you need to do it the way nature does it. but, you are still going to have to monitor and intervene when necessary. And occasionally add something like continuum bacter clean F which will outcompete any sulfur fixing bacteria (e.g. once every 2 weeks); since you are not gravel vaccuming much (e.g. once per month), add some Kh, keep an eye on ph and clean the filters when they get dirty for the tower. Monitor the nitrate to be sure the tower is still working. This is the most likely method to work.

*Oh, and I would change the water once per month or every 2 months regardless because it will replenish the elements in the water. And ideally every week add trace elements to the water.

But pretty in pictures isn't the only thing that matters to me. I like the way fish move and behave. I find Harlequins very relaxing and Bettas almost cat-like. I'm looking forward to the puffers' shenanigans

But you think celestial danios would work here? I do like them.

 

You don't need a denitrate tower, especially since you're setting up a drip system. No need to add extra bacteria either.

 

Oh, he is using a drip system? Yeah then your nitrates will be controlled, sorry for the confusion. Then if you add the bacteria it will outcompete the sulfur fixing and you can get away with gravel vacuuming less; this bacteria will eat the food in the gravel

*Do not use seachems version, pristine because it contains sulfur fixing bacteria too. This is good for a different application, but not this one. This might be ok if we were seeding a controlled version of a portion of a denitrate tower for sulfur fixing bacteria. But we are not wanting that here.

But yeah like they said, there are ways to reduce maintenance but eventually it will rear its head

 

I don't mind some maintenance. I just don't want to add to an already busy daily schedule. For now I clean my cannisters and trim my elodea when I water my plants in my apartment, about every 10-15 days. Relaxing weekend morning.

Anyway, let's get back on topic: stocking in a way that will be self sustaining food wise.

Next week I'll introduce some ramshorn, MTS, black worms, and red cherries. About one month to two months later, I'll add 3-5 of both pea puffers and bb gobies.

I would like some other fish to add in between that would not be too bothered by the puffers and not compete too much for live food (eat pellets, the leftover of which will feed the "live food").

It has to be fast (I guess that's the only way not to get nipped too much by the puffers). Not terribly territorial (too many of those already). And either be one big fish or a tight school, for aesthetics.

So far we have:
- five banded barbs (but might compete for live food, not a lot of info out there)
- chilI rasboras (not my favorite but seem to fit the bill pretty well. Fast enough?)

Guppies are off the table right?
Herbivorous mbunas?
Other ideas?

 

No mbunas.

I would leave the stocking with just the puffers and gobies personally, at least for a while. I think you'll have enough work on your hands figuring out how to keep them fed with your colonies.

 

The danios would be fine, the only thing I worry about is them getting picked on like the shrimp by the puffers, so if you got them realize they may hide like mine do in the plants. They are also kinda timid, but do have moments where they are danios and swim everywhere... I do love them though.

I would see how the puffers do with the shrimp first, and if they are fine then I would consider it, because the danios will be similarly treated to the shrimp.

I lost my to a seachem overdose of excel or I would show you them further, but you can find information on the internet. I second waiting like texas

 

But if I wait, then territory is claimed by the puffers and any new arrivals will be chased away, no?

If waiting is an option, then this is definitely what I want to do, no questions asked.
TexasDomer, uncclewis, how do you suggest I get the colonies established? Should I feed tetra tropical food pellets? Vegetarian food? Should that be a question for another thread on this forum?

 

well if you put a shrimp or two in there with the puffer and saw if they chased it down or killed it, then I wouldn't add more and I wouldn't add danios.

I have never grown them personally, I have only fed them to my fish. Texas or someone else could help better for that. My bigger sort of fish tear this to shreds quickly and do not allow populations to grow.

 

But the shrimps are meant to be food. I just need to provide them with enough hiding places so that they aren't all hunted down.

 

Or, you can introduce huge amounts of them. I did this when I introduced them to large predators. Eventually they reached an equilibrium, in this process you will need to be externally feeding or else they will all be killed.

I introduced at approximately a 15:1 ratio. 15 prey for 1 predator.

https://www.eeob.iastate.edu/faculty/DrewesC/htdocs/Lvfacts.htm

I would grow the black worms based on that in another aquarium that is unsuitable for fish and then introduce them either at one large time or a little at a time

 

Well the plan is to give a month or two of head start to the live food for them to colonize the tank before I add the predators.

 

Whenever I introduce more fish, my population goes way down, so even if you have it established the ratio still needs to be high, so still have that ratio when its established and putting it in there.

Eventually I think I will have to add more shrimp. And you may have too as well. It is hard to say.

 

https://www.eeob.iastate.edu/faculty/DrewesC/htdocs/Lvfacts.htm

I would grow the black worms based on that in another aquarium that is unsuitable for fish and then introduce them either at one large time or a little at a time

Based in this link, suggesting "muddy substrate" for worm growth, what substrate do you think I should use in my tank for them to thrive sufficiently (but for the MTS to still be able to bury themselves)?

 

look at this chart of prey vs predator to get an idea of how nature might occur. And this is why you may ned to either add more prey or food.

prey vs predator chart in aquarium



The problem is that your prey will have less means of escape and there will be stronger dips in the prey than is typical

So my fish do not breed in my aquarium, my predators do not (clown loaches) So my predator population does not increase, unless I add fish. Your predator population, however, would

 

That cyclic predator-prey relationship will not happen in your aquarium. That is in relation to wildlife populations, not 3 puffers in an aquarium.

I'm not sure if you'll have issues adding more fish later on, but I wouldn't think so with 3 puffers in such a large tank if you're only adding a non-aggressive species.

For the shrimp, they'll pretty much eat anything. I alternate mine on herbivore wafers, shrimp pellets (yes, they eat other shrimp!), blackworms (so cool to watch them eat one), and veggies.

I do agree that setting up the blackworms in your tank will be a challenge. I wonder if dirt capped with a thin layer of gravel will work? Or will the MTS make a mess of the dirt?

 

Yeah it is really hard to say what will happen with the prey/predator in your aquarium, but I am just trying to open your eyes for the fact that because they cannot escape their predators, you may need to re-introduce the prey and when you are introducing the predators to be sure their population is lower than the prey.

If you could somehow ensure that all of your puffers are female or male, it would help to prevent decimation of the prey through breeding

 

look at this chart of prey vs predator to get an idea of how nature might occur. And this is why you may ned to either add more prey or food.

prey vs predator chart in aquarium



The problem is that your prey will have less means of escape and there will be stronger dips in the prey than is typical

So my fish do not breed in my aquarium, my predators do not (clown loaches) So my predator population does not increase, unless I add fish. Your predator population, however, would

That's helpful. I've always thought that a good ratio for prey to first level predator should be 10:1, thus making it difficult to have a 2 level food chain in an aquarium! But I'll try and aI'm for a 15:1 like you said. The fact that they will live in close proximity is indeed a good argument.

I can always buy a whole lot of snails, shrimps and worms for very cheap around here so it should be fine.

 

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I do agree that setting up the blackworms in your tank will be a challenge. I wonder if dirt capped with a thin layer of gravel will work? Or will the MTS make a mess of the dirt?

On my previous tanks, I've use soil like Dennerle substrate scraper's soil (sort of gravels of dirt) and after a while (a month or two), the lower layers of it seem to turn into a type of dirt / mud. Have you tried something similar? It's kind of like ADA's Aqua Soil Amazonia. Do you think this could suit both the worms and the snails?

Or mixing that with sand? Or or having different areas in the tank. One with sand and the other with dirt?

 

No idea, sorry. I keep my blackworm cultures in the fridge.

 

Basically we are saying it is very hard to do and we do not try to grow them in our tanks because it means the tank is probably not healthy for our fish. When I feed my fish that sort of thing, they always finish them off...

However good luck with it!

 

I'm really growing into the idea of a school of chilI rasboras

Basically we are saying it is very hard to do and we do not try to grow them in our tanks because it means the tank is probably not healthy for our fish. When I feed my fish that sort of thing, they always finish them off...

However good luck with it!

From looking around, it looks like it might be feasible not too difficultly in a completely healthy tank.

 

Hey everyone,
One more stocking idea: what about an electric blue ram? Would that go well with pea puffers and bb gobies without gorging too much on the "live food"? Assuming I'm also feeding pellets regularly of course.

 

I wouldn't add any cichlids to this tank for fear of aggression issues.

 

Here's the tank and its stand. The stand is not entirely finished but the structure is there. The tank is finished though.

 

Looks good but it may be a fire hazard blocking the door. Lol jk

 

Looks good but it may be a fire hazard blocking the door. Lol jk

Even worse: this is the door to my toilets! This was just to test the stand

 

Lol great.