Setup a self-sustaining tank (food-wise)

Dwarf puffers eat worms and snails. Worms and snails thrive and reproduce heavily in most aquariums. Would it be possible to setup a tank with the right parameters for the dwarf puffers to feed off of what lives inside the tank with them?

I'm thinking a well established tank with lots of hiding places (of course) for 3 puffers. About 30 gallons. Sand for substrate so that snails and worms can bury themselves in it. Let the tank "cure" for a while so that the worms and the snails get well established, and then put the puffers in.

• Is that possible?
• Would you need to provide food for the snails and worms? Or would the dead leaves / dead matter / algae be enough?
• What kind of snail and worms would work for this?

That sounds like an amazing thing to do, so I'm afraid that if it hasn't been done it's because it's harder than it sounds...

 

I think that worms could possibly work but I doubt snails will. They may for a while but not thinking for longterm. Mine not a dwarf will eat and eat and eat. I doubt they would stop, fish are optimistic eaters and take advantage of eating when they can not knowing when the next meal maybe. I could be wrong but I put about 20 ghost shrimp in my tank 150 and he hunted them until they were gone. Had a belly ache for almost 2 days. They also blow sand so they will hunt the worms too, but I don't think that they would be able to endulge with black worms.

 

So black worms in black sand (just to make it harder for the puffers )?

I remember reading somewhere that some snails do bury underneath the sand as well, so probably, they'd get a good shot at survival as well, and since they do need to get out from time to time to eat, then the puffers get a meal.

This feels so doable. Just need to find the right kind and the right amount of worms and snails to put in!!

Who else here knows a lot about dwarf puffers? Let's tag them in I'm setting up a new tank in a month or two and this would be an awesome project.

 

Snails will work, if you introduce bladder snails. They reproduce asexually, and they are all over the tank within the week. Good luck, sounds like a fun project.

 

Snails will work, if you introduce bladder snails. They reproduce asexually, and they are all over the tank within the week. Good luck, sounds like a fun project.

I might already have some of those all over my main tank. Are they the tiny kind that reproduces like crazy? When I google them, I find all sorts of different looking snails...

 

@MJDuti
Some snails do bury themselves you may be thinking about mts. Theyre shell will be to hard. Other snails maybut the only digging snails I know of are mts and bds. Black devil spike.

All fish are subjective so some may do differently than others.
Onl way to know for sure Is to test it out.

 

Some snails do bury themselves you may be thinking about mts. Theyre shell will be to hard.

But the juveniles will be al dente!

 

Sorry but theyre not. clever word play though lol
My fahaka is almost 4 inches and they give him a hard time when he was a baby, the size of a nickel he couldnt eat the pin size mts.
Ive also just read that they have been known to break theyre teeth because they're tough. I had to use pliars to crush it When I fed him MTS.

 

Sorry bt theyre not clever though lol
My fahaka is almost 4 inches and they give him a hard time when he was a baby size of a nickel he couldnt eat the pin size mts.
Ive also just read that they have been known to break theyre teeth because they tough I had to use pliars to crush it.

Sorry, could you rewrite your post, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.

What else could live in the substrate (or hide well enough), live off waste / dead leaves / algae and reproduce fast enough to feed dwarf puffers ?

black worm? white worm? other snails? some types of shrimps?

 

I don't think the worms will work - I could see the puffers eating them all very quickly. You might be able to do with the ramshorn and bladder snails, but again, the puffers might eat them quickly too. MTS might have a better shot.

Do you not want to feed/maintain the tank? Or is this just an experiment?

 

The basic idea is to have as little maintenance to do as possible. Minimum goal is to be able to go for some time away from my tanks without the fish having any problem.

I already have my drip-system for auto water changes. For my community tank I have an automatic feeder, and shrimps do the cleaning.

On this dwarf puffer tank I'm planning on having the same drip system, I've heard some people have had luck with amanos so that could be my cleaning crew. I'm now looking for a way to feed.

 

You should still be able to go out of town for a while without issues. Fish are fine for a few days or weeks without being fed.

 

Still, it would be cool to have them fed that way, from live animals living inside the tank.

I spend a lot of time looking at my fish, but I don't particularly enjoy the maintenance, feeding, cleaning...

 

Unfortunately there's really no escaping that. Proper tank maintenance is essential for fish health.

 

Oh but I know that. But it doesn't change the fact that a semI self sustaining food chain would make it easier, be a cool project, and I would really enjoy this.

 

He's right about the maintenence its gotta be done. Well for keeping substrate cleaned MTS will be the way to go. Puffers are fantastic hunters most things that go in the tank that move or look like foodthey eat or try too. Lol but best personality of the trade ime but I'm partial.

 

People at my LFS say dwarf puffer really have trouble eating snails. How could this be if it's their main diet in the wild?

Also they said raising black worms in a clean tank is close to impossible...

Thoughts?

 

These are my 3 opinions:

1) red cherry shrimp (rcs) - probably your best bet once they are established and breeding, which may take about a month. But you'll have to provide plenty of hiding spots and plants. They love grazing Java fern and driftwood.

2) for snails: bladder, ramshorn, and mts. I would just ask for bladder snails when you go to local fish stores. Most places want to get rid of them and will give them to you for free. They may or may not reproduce fast enough for you. Usually that involves supplemental feeding and depends on the tenacity of your puffer. Same deal with ramshorns, but adults are too big, but you could always crush them in their shell. MTS would be my preference. They help aerate the substrate and will typically breed no problem. Over breeding is usually from over feeding. These snails do have a tough shell, which is a problem for all puffers, except pea puffers. These little guys suck the snails out of their shells instead of crushing them so you'll be fine.

3) the only worms that I know of that will work are black worms, which are fantastic. They will burrow in the substrate and may stick out once in awhile, are an excellent protein source, and will also aerate your substrate. You could just keep these in the fridge, in water, which will have to be cleaned often. I had them establish a colony once in the past (mainly with shrimp) but haven't had luck since, especially with carnivores.

All of these you would have to get established ahead of adding the puffer, but all are definitely possible. Just note, a 30G is going to be HUGE for 3 dwarf puffers. Not that it's a bad thing, but you might not see them and can easily put more fish in there, or even go with other puffer species.

 

My brother had some pond snails that exploded ... he had a friend being over a puffer and they lived happily ever after! The snails reproduced at a rate that kept the puffer fed and it was a nice balance. I don't know any more specifics ... he was just telling me this story the other day.

 

@MJDutI I love you

Your answer totally made my day (and I'm at the ER after an accident on a construction site and a pipe broke in my kitchen this morning)!!!

I did plan on trying to add more than 3 puffers but I want to have all that established first.

My main tank already is a steady source of RCS and snails (no idea which kind) but I'd rather have these colonies right inside the puffers tank.

What would you suggest I add in addition to the dwarf puffers? (Who needless to say are known for their inhospitality). I'd love freshwater bumblebee gobies (I know there is a debate about their brackish needs but current consensus seems to fall on the freshwater side and they'd love the worms and be still enough not to be targeted by the puffers), or even — one can always dream — a male blue Pseudotropheus Demasoni (mbuna cichlid).

Also, which substrate would be ideal here? I'm thinking black sand for the snails and the worms to burrow and for the puffers mess not to accumulate underneath any sort of gravel.

 

Little advise if you would like it, Be aware that the waste is large from theses little guys so sand is hard to keep clean with them, also I feed mine brine shrimp they like the hunt, they can be aggressive so introduce them all at the same time this also helps to reduce chance of more males.

 

Little advise if you would like it, Be aware that the waste is large from theses little guys so sand is hard to keep clean with them, also I feed mine brine shrimp they like the hunt, they can be aggressive so introduce them all at the same time this also helps to reduce chance of more males.

So what kind of substrate would you recommend? Won't the shrimps and snails do the cleaning?

 

Lol, yea probably wouldn't do the any tropheus. I'm a big fan of sand over gravel in general. The black will help make your rcs' red pop more, and may hide your puffer poop a little more. However, my I've seen my puffer waste be red from blood worms before sooo. But sand is also IMO easier to clean because everything lies on top. You just have to stay on top of cleaning it. Speaking of food, Aaron's suggestion for live brine shrimp is great. It gives them something to chase. Since we've gone through a bunch of live options, unless you can get daphnia or mosquito larvae, frozen is the next best thing. Get yourself some blood worms, mysis shrimp, and krill. These guys can be fussy, so just be ready with options. Hopefully they'll like a lot.

As far as their aggression goes, each one can be totally different from the next. But overall I've seen more nicer ones than killer ones. Always have a backup tank (small) so if you see constant fighting/nipping or over aggression at feeding you can take the fish out and figure out what you want to do from there. My older female was the sweetest thing and didn't mind eating with other tankmates, and was out all the time. My male, while he plays nice with others, is a loner who explores, but loves his one spot, and is still a little nervous around me after the past few months.

Tankmates is a fun matter to discuss because you'll get 1,000 different answers. You'll hear NOTHING!, just ottos, or rcs for the main answers. You just want something small, won't outcompete them for food, and nothing aggressive. Nano fish can be gorgeous, but typically aren't cheap. I've been in the nano scene for the past few years now and have found some good and bad options. Just let me know what you might be looking for and I can give you an idea. Funny you bring up the BB goby. There are about 2-3 species that get regularly traded, I believe. I can't recall the exact names. I got mine from a breeder that has been breeding them in Freshwater for multiple generations. Only got one because I was skeptical too, but should have gotten more. They are awesome fish. I would suggest these if you can get them, for the bottom of your tank.


*your shrimp and snails will help, but you are the cleaner. Always over filter with puffers. I always had 2 going, which helps as a backup just in case too. I would do your main (HOB, canister, etc) and then add a smaller sponge filter for your secondary.

 

You can get very close to this, if you use a denitrate tower + canister with matrix. However, to think it will be completely self-sustaining may be erroneous. However, if it is light or moderately (not fully stocked), you can go 3-4 months probably without doing much for it- fish will still be very healthy if you monitored and made sure there were not hiccups in your tower and water. However, it will require you to add trace elements and food occasionally (bi-weekly for both) and monitor the ph, kh, and gh, and nitrate at least once per week and do a water change or something if necessary. This is the closest you can get to that.

Also, I recommend against sand if you want to not maintain the tank, that will require more maintenance, so go for a gravel bottom!

 

MJDutI so no big display fish with the puffers? I would have loved that. Anything big would do well in addition to puffers and gobies ?

I live next door to a LFS open every day of the week so I always have a backup plan (for food or tank).

Also, I like to over filtrate as well as install a drip system for water changes, so my water remains at very stable parameters and always has low ammonia and nitrite/nitrate.

 

Well the system I told you is the least amount of work and it is what nature does, actually, so that is why it is best. The denitrate tower turns it into nitrogen gas. And thus your nitrates will stay controlled by non-hydrogen sulfide bacteria. The trace elements additions are especially important for snails, they need that sort of stuff- plus you won't be adding it with new water (assuming it has it), but this way you can get away from gravel cleanings and water changes for up to 4 months... Assuming you monitor kh, gh, and nitrates, plus add food every few days all bacteria and fish need some of the nutrients. There won't be enough. The tank anaerobic bacteria are mainly in the denitrate tower.

Also, at least once per month, add a product which adds antI hydrogen sulfide denitrifying bacteria to accelerate the process and it will outcompete the sulfide types(which otherwise might form stronger in the gravel). If interested I will tell you the product and it would keep nitrates in check too better

 

If interested I will tell you the product and it would keep nitrates in check too better

I'd love to hear more about this Nitrate Tower and how it's better than a drip system

And I'd also love for MJDutI to keep bringing ideas for the design of this tank!

 

Please still do water changes at least weekly...

And I disagree. I think sand is easier and less maintenance than gravel.

 

Not necessarily better than a drip system, but, if your tap water is mainly fine, then I might go with a drip system. Mine is not... It would not be feasible to drip a ph and kh change. If you are going to do that, you might as well just do a water change and everything else that goes with it ;-)

Give me a few and I will tell you more about it.
I say sand is more work with a denitrate, only because it will impact the denitrate and the bacteria cannot get into it. But, also matrix. And it will clog mechanical media sooner

 

Please still do water changes at least weekly...

Why should I do water changes if I have a drip system? All I have to do is net out all the detritus that has accumulated at the bottom from time to time (if even that).

Not necessarily better than a drip system, but, if your tap water is mainly fine, then I might go with a drip system. Mine is not... It would not be feasible to drip a ph and kh change. If you are going to do that, you might as well just do a water change and everything else that goes with it ;-)

Before dripping in, my tap water goes through an activated carbon reactor to remove chlorine chloramine and heavy metals. I was thinking of adding a second stage maybe, dunno what for yet (ph, gh maybe). All I have to do is change out the activated carbon once in a while. Quite simple really.

 

Why should I do water changes if I have a drip system? All I have to do is net out all the detritus that has accumulated at the bottom from time to time (if even that).

Before dripping in, my tap water goes through an activated carbon reactor to remove chlorine chloramine and heavy metals. I was thinking of adding a second stage maybe, dunno what for yet (ph, gh maybe). All I have to do is change out the activated carbon once in a while. Quite simple really.

Yes, but is your kh and ph acceptable from the tap? Also, with those sort of filtrations, I would recommend adding trace elements to your water, you are also removing most of the trace ions required by fish and plants. It does not just remove the worst of the heavy metals and chlorine. Also if you have plants you need the plant one too.

I think she was talking to me, drip is the same thing as a water change.

With the second change you are really getting into way to much work and the cost would be enormous, then a denitrate option seems better IMO.
The second staging system would be most cost effective if you had a tank of equal size and just dripped the water into it and then the same rate into the new tank, but of course changed the ph first and calculated the mixture what it would be. you can see this gets very complicated numerically and financially

 

Why should I do water changes if I have a drip system? All I have to do is net out all the detritus that has accumulated at the bottom from time to time (if even that).

That comment was in reference to uncclewis's comment above, sorry for the confusion!

 

Yes, but is your kh and ph acceptable from the tap? Also, with those sort of filtrations, I would recommend adding trace elements to your water, you are also removing most of the trace ions required by fish and plants. It does not just remove the worst of the heavy metals and chlorine. Also if you have plants you need the plant one too.

So I should dose trace elements? How often do you need to do something like that? Isn't that contained in the food? (Let's forget plants for now, it's an entire different issue)

With the second change you are really getting into way to much work and the cost would be enormous, then a denitrate option seems better IMO.
The second staging system would be most cost effective if you had a tank of equal size and just dripped the water into it and then the same rate into the new tank, but of course changed the ph first and calculated the mixture what it would be. you can see this gets very complicated numerically and financially

Yeah I guess but my tap pH is 7.6 and GH<14°d, so I'm quite pleased with it. I put some peat granules in my canister and all is fine.

 

So I should dose trace elements? How often do you need to do something like that? Isn't that contained in the food? (Let's forget plants for now, it's an entire different issue)

The water already is processed with carbon filtration and removes a lot of it, and you are further removing more of it. Sometimes they even distill parts of public water if the salinity is very high. So the trace elements and heavy metals are low. These are in fish food, yes, but to the level at which both the bacteria, plants, and fish would need? No... Without plants you do not need to do it as often. Like once per week is fine. With plants it will be more often.

If you do the denitrate, it should be sooner because the bacteria use it too!

 

What do you mean "further removing it"? The water only passes through activated carbon once (before dripping into my system) but then there is no activated carbon in my filtration system.

 

Well, that is not entirely true. I assume that it is industrial grade, which means it is both macro and microporous which has a strong affinity for elements too. Either way, most of the trace elements are "heavy metals," however, they aren't cadmium for example, or uranium.

So basically you are removing those others too! But it is good to get rid of the uranium, but I also hope it isn't in your water, anyway.

 

I use Eheim AKTIV for now, I haven't researched too much which carbon to use for now. Is there some type that would take the bad stuff out and leave some goods?

 

Activated carbon is better than ion exchange resins in that that department. And look for macroporous carbon like seachem sells, but it is more expensive- however it will take out less of the good- but also less of the bad. It will remove the chlorine and other water impurities. You can just add the trace elements back using seachem trace or similar products from continuum.

The denitrate tower (use seachem denitrate), this is what you need to do. Buy huge canister, or multiple reactors, they need to be well sealed. Add one at a time until you have achieved total nitrate control. Seed it with the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, trace elements, and a small amount of sugar, and the colony will establish much faster. Just put that in the water. Make sure you make the flow between 10-45 gph, measure with a flow meter. Add the trace elements and the food. The food will add potassium, phosphorous, and a carbon source, which will feed the algae and bacteria- as well as the fish. But it is not high enough in trace elements to be self-sustaining. May be after a while of doing this and the colony is well established you won't need to add as much micronutrients (trace).

 

The denitrate tower (use seachem denitrate), this is what you need to do. Buy huge canister, or multiple reactors, they need to be well sealed. Add one at a time until you have achieved total nitrate control. Seed it with the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, trace elements, and a small amount of sugar, and the colony will establish much faster. Just put that in the water. Make sure you make the flow between 10-45 gph, measure with a flow meter. Add the trace elements and the food. The food will add potassium, phosphorous, and a carbon source, which will feed the algae and bacteria- as well as the fish. But it is not high enough in trace elements to be self-sustaining. May be after a while of doing this and the colony is well established it will be different.

Wow, sounds complicated! I think I'd rather dose trace elements weekly. Plus, I don't really have nitrate problems.

 

There's no need for a denitrate tower in most freshwater tanks. Also no need to dose trace elements either, unless you're using RO water or your GH is very low. I don't dose any trace elements outside of my weekly Flourish dose and my fish and plants are doing very well.