Seachem Prime vs API Tap Water Conditioner and Others

Please don't call people dumb. I have never said that and you know it. I think we are done with this thread after that comment.

Its the way you are speaking to people. I said you are implying they are dumb. I never said you CALLED anyone dumb.

 

And just to prove again that Prime is a reducer and not an oxidizer.... here is the email exchange from Seachem.

I wrote:
***
Hello,

Quick question.

Is Prime a reducing agent or an oxidation agent? All I can find on the web sites is that it is a reducing agent.

Thank you.
***

Seachems reply:
***

HI there, thanks for reaching out!

Prime is a strong reducer.

Hope that clarifies!

Seachem Support 10304

****

There is the final answer.

I don't want this to sound mean but you do seem to have a problem believing anything seachem claims but you do believe everything they say in an email and post it as proof of what you are saying. I don't know what to think.

 

I don't want this to sound mean but you do seem to have a problem believing anything seachem claims but you do believe everything they say in an email and post it as proof of what you are saying. I don't know what to think.

Interesting when you read your statement above a few times . Yes, if Seachem (or any manufacturer) claims it does something, they should be able to prove it. So far, Seachem hasn't and can't by their own admission. Yes I go to the source and other places and do the research. Sorry.

 

Here is where I stand on the matter:

There is no proof that it does what it claims. And there is no proof that it doesn’t do what it claims. So we really have nothing proven or disproven here. From what I am gathering.

I definitely feel like a sucker if their claims are just made up and not at all true. I wish there was a way to prove if the ammonia in our tank is non toxic, or binded in some way when prime is added. We CAN prove that ammonia isn’t removed by it….but how do we prove if its truly temporarily detoxified? Short of the fish’s behavior??? Genuine question!

I am not accusing you of being wrong. And I am also not going to jump all over your theory as fact just from one link. I use prime entirely as a dechlorinator. And I am going to choose to believe that by default, because of Seachem’s claims, it is also protecting my fish from the toxicity of the ammonia in my tap while the BB takes care of it. If it is not…then DARN. I guess my baby fish are more hardy then I thought they were? Or else, the prime is doing its job. I don’t know.

I will admit that your research does have me hesitant to tell people it detoxifies ammonia up to 1.0ppm if there is ANY chance it is false. I don’t want to continue to spread false info. But I feel like Seachem is a respectable company and I am going to choose to believe that they would not mislead people like that. But if they are…then that is really a bummer and I am a big fat sucker.

 

Interesting when you read your statement above a few times . Yes, if Seachem (or any manufacturer) claims it does something, they should be able to prove it. So far, Seachem hasn't and can't by their own admission. Yes I go to the source and other places and do the research. Sorry.

I am thinking the folks that are paid to answer all the questions presented to them on a daily basis are given a script. I doubt they know a great deal more than we do about the ingredients in the products they are asked about or how those products are supposed to work. The person on the other end of the line has been told just enough to satisfy the one asking the questions. In your case they don't have the answers you need to hear. Most folks don't dig as deep as you do. Digging deep is often a good thing but no company it going to share their trade secrets with the general public.

Although I have read through this thread and there has been some good discussions, until actually proven that Seachem has been lying to us all along and Prime is snake oil I will continue using and recommending it when I feel it is needed. Guess I will have to keep using it. I just bought another 500ml bottle of it.

 

Although I have read through this thread and there has been some good discussions, until actually proven that Seachem has been lying to us all along and Prime is snake oil I will continue using and recommending it when I feel it is needed. Guess I will have to keep using it. I just bought another 500ml bottle of it.

And that is just fine! I have a bottle of Prime and I will use it until it's gone. All I'm saying is that you should use it when adding water to the tank to de-chlorinate it, that's all. Stating that it will protect your fish from ammonia poisoning is the issue. Funny that nobody here has emailed Seachem like I have, let alone call them (like I have too), to get their own information.

This discussion is not going to make a 'Hill of Beans' difference for anyone here. Will this affect Seachem sales? No. Will Seachem stay in business? Yes.

This thread will eventually die with less than 1000 views and nobody will be the wiser.

 

bizaliz3 I think it was Momgoose56 that used the seachem alert to test the effect of adding Prime. I have never used one but if I understand the way it works it only registers free ammonia. I am thinking she added Prime and the ammonia in the tank went from an ammonia reading down to safe level. That tells me that Prime does change the ammonia to ammonium or something quite like it.

I am sure she will correct me if I am mis-understanding the test she ran. I would run the test myself but I don't have any ammonia in my source water or in any of my tanks.

 

There is no proof that it does what it claims. And there is no proof that it doesn’t do what it claims. So we really have nothing proven or disproven here. From what I am gathering.

I think binding ammonia is plausible so I won't rule it out. The claims about nitrite and nitrate are unbelievable though and have several professional chemists scratching their heads. Nitrate is also not toxic enough to bother trying to detoxify chemically.

Kordon tried to make the nitrite/nitrate claim years ago and ion chromatography testing showed that it wasn't actually binding or removing anything. Since this already happened once before, we should be very suspicious if the claim emerges again.

Seachem is very defensive and protective of their products. They probably felt they had to make the same claim or risk losing market share. It's the same thing with heavy metals. Once one manufacturer claims it the rest follow.

I definitely feel like a sucker if their claims are just made up and not at all true. I wish there was a way to prove if the ammonia in our tank is non toxic, or binded in some way when prime is added. We CAN prove that ammonia isn’t removed by it….but how do we prove if its truly temporarily detoxified? Short of the fish’s behavior??? Genuine question!

There are several possibilities:

• Ion chromatography might be able to determine whether ammonia is bound or not as it would detect a change in mass or charge.
• Ion selective electrode
• Animal toxicity testing

I guess my baby fish are more hardy then I thought they were? Or else, the prime is doing its job. I don’t know.

That's why there needs to be a control group and why I don't take claims that Prime saved someone's fish seriously.

I will admit that your research does have me hesitant to tell people it detoxifies ammonia up to 1.0ppm if there is ANY chance it is false. I don’t want to continue to spread false info. But I feel like Seachem is a respectable company and I am going to choose to believe that they would not mislead people like that. But if they are…then that is really a bummer and I am a big fat sucker.

As of this moment, I won't rely on any dechlorinator to detoxify ammonia. If necessary, I have 20 lb box of clinotilolite in the basement. Its ability to adsorb ammonium is well studied. It will lower ammonia levels in a manner that can be detected with standard ammonia tests.

I was a Seachem fan for the first few years but my opinion of them changed over time due to some shady practices:

• Selling low grade pumice as Matrix
• Convincing people to put fish poison in their aquariums in the form of liquid carbon without first determining if the dose was safe
• Claiming Kanaplex can treat fungal infections
• Underdosing Kanaplex to the point where it rarely works
• Underdosing Safe so it kills/injures fish
• Marketing Metroplex as a treatment for anaerobic bacterial infections without mentioning that nearly all bacterial infections in fish are aerobic

Seachem's reputation is based entirely upon its marketing. They're great because they say so. People parrot their marketing and suddenly they have a good reputation.

bizaliz3 I think it was Momgoose56 that used the seachem alert to test the effect of adding Prime. I have never used one but if I understand the way it works it only registers free ammonia. I am thinking she added Prime and the ammonia in the tank went from an ammonia reading down to safe level. That tells me that Prime does change the ammonia to ammonium or something quite like it.

That's how I understand it. We have conflicting results using more or less the same method. Either more parties have to replicate the test or a better test conducted.

I think animal testing is the best method. Add the same amount of ammonia to two groups and only treat one group with Prime.

 

AvalancheDave

That's why there needs to be a control group and why I don't take claims that Prime saved someone's fish seriously.

I tried to stress that it was more the water changes that saved the remaining fish. I could just go by what the folks I was working with were telling me. Once I got them changing more water to get the ammonia levels down to safer levels and yes, adding Prime, by the time they dropped off the forum their remaining fish were still alive and well. I really wish folks would come back and let us know how things are going. It could very well be only the water changes that saved the fish but I guess we won't ever know for sure. I do know more than once fish were still showing signs of stress even though water changes were being done. Again, I just had to depend on what I was being told.

 

I want to see you guys start a discussion on the "bacteria in a bottle" claims. I'd buy tickets to that one.

 

I want to see you guys start a discussion on the "bacteria in a bottle" claims. I'd buy tickets to that one.

by experimentation.

 

And those patents state: consisting of sodium formaldehydebisulfite and potassium formaldehydebisulfite.

Seachem has already stated that they do not use any formaldehyde at all. Information is on their web site.

But Seachem also stated they use something else that does the same the as formaldehyde. Maybe another aldehyde?

 

I want to see you guys start a discussion on the "bacteria in a bottle" claims. I'd buy tickets to that one.

I dare you to start a new thread.

 

I forgot about Seachem Stability in my list of shady Seachem practices. There's been a fair amount of talk about what species of bacteria they use.

What I learned from that 80-page thread on reef2reef is that only a few brands use true nitrifying bacteria and that there are a lot of other types of bacteria placed in these products that can temporarily consume ammonia.

IIRC, Fritz, ATM, and Dr. Tim's were real nitrifiers while the rest were likely not and performed poorly. Fritz TurboStart (the refrigrated stuff) blew away everything else.

 

There is a financial incentive for Seachem(or any other manufacturer) to make bogus and exaggerated claims about their products. This is why I put the burden of truth on them - there is a massive conflict of interest. Does anyone trust the used car salesman to give honest advice about a car? Of course not.

All that being said, I still use Prime as my conditioner and I have a Tidal 110. I think they make a lot of quality products, but a person needs to critically think about their claims.

 

I'm almost out of popcorn.

 

I have found out how Prime works now. Here is the data for all.

I found out how Prime works. It’s on the back label. | Water Supplements Forum | 437987

 

I am surprised that it took this long for you to read the back of the label. That is one of the first things I do when I get a new product. My first recommendation is to ALWAYS do a water change FIRST and then add Prime to DETOX the low amount of ammonia left AFTER the WATER CHANGE.

Notice I didn't say remove I said detox. Prime does not remove the ammonia. That is one of the first things I say when I recommend Prime. I am no scientist so I can't totally understand or explain the chemical reactions when one is added to another. Can you at least consider what is added to Prime has a chemical reaction to ammonia thus changing the chemical composition of ammonia to a safer form?

I agree and often say if there is no ammonia any of the many water conditioners will work just fine but if we are dealing with an ammonia problem I will always recommend Prime until the problem is resolved.

 

I am surprised that it took this long for you to read the back of the label. That is one of the first things I do when I get a new product. My first recommendation is to ALWAYS do a water change FIRST and then add Prime to DETOX the low amount of ammonia left AFTER the WATER CHANGE.

Yes, I agree. I had to read the label, oh well. Remember, 50% water change removes 50% of ammonia so now it's not as bad as it was.

 

I'm sorry if my post annoys anyone. Also, I have not really read everything here, but this is just my thought on seachem prime.
The only thing that is annoying(fromt the company itself) is that they don't have proof, although this could just be because I am a human and humans are like that.
However, I have never had any problems with their conditioner. I do think the whole ammonia binding thing works, but again I'm not really a chemist or whatever so I cannot say. The reason I say this is just because others have reported success and for me it worked. I did a fish in cycle with high ammounts of ammonia(since I was an idiot and poured in way too much fish food srry fishes), and I used the conditioner when I did daily water changes. Yes, prime never removed the ammonia, but I do believe it "bound it" into ammonium, which is why during the cycle my fish never showed any signs of ammonia poisoning even though there was pretty high levels i'm sure. However, one thing is please don't overdose. First of all, I'm pretty sure it depletes oxygen levels (I got this claim or fact from one of corys videos), and you are just wasting your money. If ammonia REALLY is a huge problem in your tank and you feel the need to dose 5x the ammount recommended, then you shouldn't be relying on a product. You should be doing water changes and getting your tank cycled. A lot of products in the aquarium products(well,most actually) are for the hobbyists "ease", and not for the fish. Fish don't need all this stuff, they don't have it in the wild. The glass boxes are so the owner can look at the fish. The de chlorinater is there because most don't have access to non-chlorinated water that is safe for their fish. The pellets and flakes are there because no one has time to go out into the wild and get their fishes natural food, or create an environment for the fish to live in comfortably. Test kits are there because people want to be sure of their water parameters. Filters are there because most tanks don't have a proper setup for there not to be(but filters aren't really necessary, it is only for the hobbyists convinience). I know I've kinda gotten off topic, but a dechlorinater is a dechlorinater. If you believe that prime can detoxify ammonia, that's awesome. If you don't, that's also fine. Because in my opinion, in the end of the day it doesn't really matter if you make sure that your tank can handle the ammonia. To be honest you really shouldn't just depend on something to help you, you must put in the work. If prime really does workt to detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates, including other things, that's great. But as people here have said, there isn't enough evidence. So , you should probably just research the water quality of the water that you are using and take measures to detoxify it. Ammonia in your water? You can use prime if it works, or you can have plants and a cycled tank. Heavy metals in the water? Get some duckweed or try to switch sources. Okay yeah again I'm sorry if this was confusing or people got offended reading this. I don't really even know why I spent so much time writing this lol.
P.S. do wanna add tho, I do still like seachem just cuz when I was a beginner, I knew nothing about my water source quality. I used seachem because it was the cheapest conditioner they had at petco haha. Now, I know that the water quality here is pretty crappy, not gonna lie. However, my fish have always been fine(lol the water here has some pretty interesting things in it and has even been reported to kill fish i'm pretty sure....) so although seachem may be a little "sketchy", I still trust their water conditioner. Just my opinion.