Seachem Prime vs API Tap Water Conditioner and Others

Cichlidude

First Seachem Prime and API Tap Water Conditioner (and others) do the exact same thing. They BOTH only handle Chlorine and Chloramine. Any water conditioner will have the same information below, except the dosage.

They do NOT detoxify ammonia, nitrite or nitrate what so ever. Prime says that it does only to make you spend money and generate false marketing for them for their profit. There is NO proof that Prime does anything else. You should not have to add any additional Prime (like they state) to ‘protect your fish’. Proven wrong with science here:

Prime and Safe

Make sure you read the entire article as the test that Seachem recommends to use was proven not to work, multiple times.


Ever wonder why no professional chemist, no biologist, no universities and no colleges ever recommend Prime to 'detoxify' ammonia with all their water tests? I can find none either because if it worked, this would be all over their studies above. And it isn't. Interesting.


This is why they charge almost double because folks have propagated this myth that Seachem started and folks push to this day. You never need to add any additional Prime ever, only add it if you change water. The notion to add Prime days later to ‘protect’ your fish from ammonia, nitrite or nitrate is absolutely false. Seachem wants you to do this so you will buy more products from them. And yes you can dose up to 5X times any water conditioner, but only Prime puts that false marketing on their web site and the bottle.

Remember Aquarium Manufactures are an UNREGULATED industry. The can say, print, publish anything they want to generate sales and do not have to prove anything. If you contact Seachem for such scientific proof for a full test report from any independent company, you will be answered with dead air and/or ** crickets ** for email. They have none. They know if this information got out, their sales would plummet.

Here is what you need to know.
*****************
Dosage for both Chlorine and Chloramine:

Prime – 5ml for each 50 gallons of water.

API – 3ml for Chlorine for each 60 gallons or 5ml for Chloramine each 30 gallons of water.

*****************
Which is the better value?

Let’s do the science (oh, that’s already proven above) so the math:

Prime - $13.10 for 16.9 oz. (from Amazon) or 0.78 per oz.
API - $6.64 for 16 oz. (from Amazon) or 0.42 per oz.

Easy to see that API is about half the price! They both do the exact same thing for years! If you know you have just Chlorine in your water, API uses less than Prime.

I suggest everyone switch to API Water Conditioner since they have told the truth that their product only removes Chlorine and Chloramine and is cheaper to use. There is no need to use 5X Prime as that generates profit for Seachem and does nothing as proven above.

Oh, and one tidbit more of formation. There is a 97% profit margin on Prime. Yeah, let that sink in.

Special Note that folks don’t know about:

To protect from an accidental Super-Chlorination from the water company that could happen during a water change, it is recommended that you double the dosage above for both for all water changes. This may be why some folks have unexplained fish deaths because nobody checks for the amount of Chlorine or Chloramine in their water supply. The products above are specified for a certain amount of Chlorine or Chloramine in ppm from the water company. Typically this is less then 1ppm but can go to 4ppm under certain conditions, which of course, you are not notified of at all.

All water conditioners can be over dosed with no harmful effects.
 

oldsalt777

Hello Cic...

The liquid water treatments aren't very cost effective. If you're looking to save money, then I'd recommend using Seachem's "Safe". It's a powder and works on contact with the water, so you can put the water into the tank immediately.

Old
 

Sien

Wow, that was really interesting and I am glad you did the research on that. I almost still want to believe that it detoxifies ammonia despite the facts right there because it has been drilled into my head. I personally have used ApI water conditioner, Prime, imagitarium betta conditioner, ApI stress coat, Aqueon betta bowl plus, and the aqueon water conditioner. I find they all work the same and I really see no difference except for the stress coat. I only use that for certain situations tho.
 

david1978

Wow, that was really interesting and I am glad you did the research on that. I almost still want to believe that it detoxifies ammonia despite the facts right there because it has been drilled into my head. I personally have used ApI water conditioner, Prime, imagitarium betta conditioner, ApI stress coat, Aqueon betta bowl plus, and the aqueon water conditioner. I find they all work the same and I really see no difference except for the stress coat. I only use that for certain situations tho.
Even stress coat has been proven to not do as its advertised short of pouring it right onto the fish.

Ok that was a little harsh. Heres the thing with lots of products like stress coat or the fix line. Yes in a petrie dish it does something. However you would never acheive that level of product in your aquarium since it would kill your fish.
 

mattgirl

Is there proof that Prime doesn't change the chemistry of ammonia thus making it safer for fish? There is no proof that Prime does anything to affect nitrites and/or nitrates and even Seachem says they don't know why but add that bit of information because some folks have reported it. That isn't good enough for me. The only remedy I recommend for them is water changes or maybe Nitra-Zorb to lower nitrates when water changes won't get them as low as we want them. It works for me but might not work in all cases.

I may have to change my recommendations for dealing with ammonia spikes with Prime but only if it can be proven that it doesn't do what it claims to do. Until then I will continue to recommend it if ammonia is present.

Ok that was a little harsh. Heres the thing with lots of products like stress coat or the fix line. Yes in a petrie dish it does something. However you would never acheive that level of product in your aquarium since it would kill your fish.

I agree. Aloe added to a water conditioner is one more sales gimmick to get us to buy this product instead of the one setting next to it. Can't blame the company since it does help them sell more product.
 

Sien

Interesting...I still like stress coat tho because I feel like the added aloe is better than no aloe? Either way I know they all do pretty much the same thing. But this is definitely going to make me question/research what these companies are putting out to us. My biggest thing I always advise people about is to not follow the feeding instructions on the back of fish food labels. Heres an example copy and pasted of the tetra tropical fish food "Feed 2 - 3 times daily, in small amounts, only as much as your fish can consume within several minutes". IMO that is SO much food to feed a fish. And several minutes? Some people might think that means 2 min, others might take that as 10 min. Most fish also won't stop consuming the food, they just eat until they pop. Probably just to get you to run out of food faster and buy more. All this is interesting stuff, thanks guys.
 

david1978

Is there proof that Prime doesn't change the chemistry of ammonia thus making it safer for fish? There is no proof that Prime does anything to affect nitrites and/or nitrates and even Seachem says they don't know why but add that bit of information because some folks have reported it. That isn't good enough for me. The only remedy I recommend for them is water changes or maybe Nitra-Zorb to lower nitrates when water changes won't get them as low as we want them. It works for me but might not work in all cases.

I may have to change my recommendations for dealing with ammonia spikes with Prime but only if it can be proven that it doesn't do what it claims to do. Until then I will continue to recommend it if ammonia is present.



I agree. Aloe added to a water conditioner is one more sales gimmick to get us to buy this product instead of the one setting next to it. Can't blame the company since it does help them sell more product.
That's why when I look for treatments I tend to look on the aquaculture side. Since they are after cost effective products that they can duplicate the results time and time again.
 

ProudPapa

First Seachem Prime and API Tap Water Conditioner (and others) do the exact same thing. They BOTH only handle Chlorine and Chloramine.

I just bought my first bottle of Prime yesterday, and I'm pretty sure that if you read the label carefully it will also say that it removes (or neutralizes, or whatever) heavy metals in addition to chlorine and chloramine.
 

david1978

If you want to super cheap.

Chlorine and chloramine
 

Cichlidude

I may have to change my recommendations for dealing with ammonia spikes with Prime but only if it can be proven that it doesn't do what it claims to do. Until then I will continue to recommend it if ammonia is present.
That's why the test was done and nothing was proven.
I just bought my first bottle of Prime yesterday, and I'm pretty sure that if you read the label carefully it will also say that it removes (or neutralizes, or whatever) heavy metals in addition to chlorine and chloramine.
These products also claim to neutralize nitrite and nitrate, which is another chemical impossibility. Then they claim to detoxify heavy metals, another thing which dithionite doesn’t do.

Please read the entire web page.
 

mattgirl

That's why the test was done and nothing was proven.
I keep reading all these reports and none of them seem to be done with the ammonia actually produced with fish waste. It is always done with bottled ammonia. I have often wondered and have actually mentioned it a time or two if the bacteria grown with fish waste and bacteria grown feeding bottled ammonia is actually the same.

The other thread about cleaning sponge filters too well removes all the bacteria. That bacteria was grown by feeding it nothing but bottled ammonia. Their experiments showed that cleaning the sponges too well removes all the bacteria.

Just this past week I treated my main tank to kill black beard algae with hydrogen peroxide and followed up with excel. I removed all of my bio-media including all my sponge filters since this high dose of HP supposedly kills bacteria too. I cleaned the sponges and all the rest of the bio-media until the water ran clear. Once the treatment was done I put all the bio-media back in place. I ran the ammonia test daily for 4 days in y heavily stocked tank and never saw even a trace of ammonia. This leads me to question these scientific papers when they don't run their tests on an actual fish tank.

In my humble opinion it is comparing apples to oranges. If they can prove their claims using the same conditions we have in a cycled tank I will be more prone to consider what they have to say.
 

Cichlidude

I keep reading all these reports and none of them seem to be done with the ammonia actually produced with fish waste. It is always done with bottled ammonia. I have often wondered and have actually mentioned it a time or two if the bacteria grown with fish waste and bacteria grown feeding bottled ammonia is actually the same.

The other thread about cleaning sponge filters too well removes all the bacteria. That bacteria was grown by feeding it nothing but bottled ammonia. Their experiments showed that cleaning the sponges too well removes all the bacteria.

Just this past week I treated my main tank to kill black beard algae with hydrogen peroxide and followed up with excel. I removed all of my bio-media including all my sponge filters since this high dose of HP supposedly kills bacteria too. I cleaned the sponges and all the rest of the bio-media until the water ran clear. Once the treatment was done I put all the bio-media back in place. I ran the ammonia test daily for 4 days in y heavily stocked tank and never saw even a trace of ammonia. This leads me to question these scientific papers when they don't run their tests on an actual fish tank.

In my humble opinion it is comparing apples to oranges. If they can prove their claims using the same conditions we have in a cycled tank I will be more prone to consider what they have to say.
Of course they don't use actual fish tanks with fish. There is no way to have a controlled test with proof with fish in a tank. As far as I have found out, ammonia is ammonia. Bottled is the same thing.
 

mattgirl

Of course they don't use actual fish tanks with fish. There is no way to have a controlled test with proof with fish in a tank. As far as I have found out, ammonia is ammonia. Bottled is the same thing.
This is all interesting to me. I do read the links you post but until they can prove their conclusions under real world conditions I have to question their results.
 

coralbandit

Some one is not happy with Seachem ! You bought too much matrix man ..You're angry !
I own a chlorine test kit for long time now ..
I break the rules with SAFE and have for 4-5 years now .. I pre mix it and until they changed their recipe I was using half of what they said to ..
Aquarium coop wants you to buy and use 3 meds on your new not sick fish ..
People are clueless with their money in this hobby ..That is why many vendors are corrupt .
When you try to tell all the people everything they have been told by a 'reputable' company is false you know you're in for a head ache !
Remember you're talking to a majority of people who think dwarf gouramis and balloon what evers are cute instead of criminal like they should be ..
One of my buddies works for API..At least they make candy also ! Every body loves Mars candy huh ?
 

Cichlidude

Some one is not happy with Seachem ! You bought too much matrix man ..You're angry !
Yes, I'm a little torqued. They have lied to everyone. They have been called out and they decide to be silent with no proof. I don't want folks here to fall victI'm to their products that have been proven not to work.

Not much will happen here on this forum. Be lucky if about oh, say 200 people read this post over the next month or so. That would be maybe... 0.000001% of the folks who have aquariums in the world, I don't know.

Bottomline very little people will be seeing this information on this forum.

But all we can to is take it one tank at a time.
 

juniperlea

I've stopped caring which is the best product. I'm devoting 5 and/or 10 gallon to a power-head in order to de-chlorinate/de-chloramine. Therefore, I no longer buy a bottle (unless I can ingest it!)!!!!! The tank(s) water is perfect and therefore, the fish don't care.
 

david1978

I never bought into any of those fancy products. I run my aquaclears just as they come and I have always had a well so no addictives needed.
 

coralbandit

Yes, I'm a little torqued. They have lied to everyone. They have been called out and they decide to be silent with no proof. I don't want folks here to fall victI'm to their products that have been proven not to work.


They are unregulated and we are uneducated ..You know what they say , if you think education is expensive try ignorance .
Here we are being treated ignorantly even under the guise of being smart people ..
I wonder how people kept fish back before Seachem or the life saving companies ?
The fact is they exist and thrive on our wanting it as easy as possible .
I can't wait till you realize cycled filters are for keepers not fish !
Changing water eliminates all the issues so many seem to have in fish keeping ..

Those Seachem badges are a real joke !
I always shake my head when I see them in peoples pictures ..I don't waste much time talking water quality with them usually ??
Others like to bang their heads !
 

Momgoose56

First Seachem Prime and API Tap Water Conditioner (and others) do the exact same thing. They BOTH only handle Chlorine and Chloramine. Any water conditioner will have the same information below, except the dosage.

They do NOT detoxify ammonia, nitrite or nitrate what so ever. Prime says that it does only to make you spend money and generate false marketing for them for their profit. There is NO proof that Prime does anything else. You should not have to add any additional Prime (like they state) to ‘protect your fish’. Proven wrong with science here:

Prime and Safe
This is why they charge almost double because folks have propagated this myth that Seachem started and folks push to this day. You never need to add any additional Prime ever, only add it if you change water. The notion to add Prime days later to ‘protect’ your fish from ammonia, nitrite or nitrate is absolutely false. Seachem wants you to do this so you will buy more products from them. And yes you can dose up to 5X times any water conditioner, but only Prime puts that false marketing on their web site and the bottle.

Remember Aquarium Manufactures are an UNREGULATED industry. The can say, print, publish anything they want to generate sales and do not have to prove anything. If you contact Seachem for such scientific proof for a full test report from any independent company, you will be answered with dead air and/or ** crickets ** for email. They have none. They know if this information got out, their sales would plummet.

Here is what you need to know.
*****************
Dosage for both Chlorine and Chloramine:

Prime – 5ml for each 50 gallons of water.

API – 3ml for Chlorine for each 60 gallons or 5ml for Chloramine each 30 gallons of water.

*****************
Which is the better value?

Let’s do the science (oh, that’s already proven above) so the math:

Prime - $13.10 for 16.9 oz. (from Amazon) or 0.78 per oz.
API - $6.64 for 16 oz. (from Amazon) or 0.42 per oz.

Easy to see that API is about half the price! They both do the exact same thing for years! If you know you have just Chlorine in your water, API uses less than Prime.

I suggest everyone switch to API Water Conditioner since they have told the truth that their product only removes Chlorine and Chloramine and is cheaper to use. There is no need to use 5X Prime as that generates profit for Seachem and does nothing as proven above.

Oh, and one tidbit more of formation. There is a 97% profit margin on Prime. Yeah, let that sink in.

Special Note that folks don’t know about:

To protect from an accidental Super-Chlorination from the water company that could happen during a water change, it is recommended that you double the dosage above for both for all water changes. This may be why some folks have unexplained fish deaths because nobody checks for the amount of Chlorine or Chloramine in their water supply. The products above are specified for a certain amount of Chlorine or Chloramine in ppm from the water company. Typically this is less then 1ppm but can go to 3ppm under certain conditions, which of course, you are not notified of at all.

All water conditioners can be over dosed with no harmful effects.

Super Chlorination
Cichlidude, I don't know what was wrong with the tests or technique the person who wrote the article you linked above did, but I've done the exact same test myself a few times and it's worked every single time-Prime does detoxify ammonia. You can test it yourself. Get yourself some pure ammonia. Get an API ammonia alert-about $7 USD or a Salifert ammonia test kit-$13-$15 USD. Have your Seachem ammonia kit ready.
Dose some clean water with ammonia to 1 ppm. Prepare the Seachem ammonia alert (if you're using that) by pre-moistening it with clean ammonia free water then submerge it in the ammonia water. It will react only to the NH3 in the water. The Salifert test will only react to NH3 as well. Dose the 1ppm ammonia water with the appropriate amount of Prime for the volume of water you have treated with ammonia. Stir it up and after a few minutes retest it with your API test and the Salifert test. The Salifert test will now test 0 ppm ammonia, the API test will still read 1 ppm ammonia. The Seachem ammonia alert will slowly return to the yellow color which is "safe" or detecting no NH3.
As far as dechlorinaton, the difference between the price of Prime and the price of the API dechlorinator is 3 cents per gallon for dechloraminating the water. Prime treats chlorine and chloramine in water at a dose of 5 ml per 50 gallons. The API product takes 5 ml per 30 gallons to detoxify chloramine. Since most large domestic water treatment plants in the US are now switching to using chloramine to treat water supplies (it lasts longer than clorine in treated water) it would be prudent to pre-treat all tank water with the dose to remove chloramine unless you know for sure, on any given day, that your water provider is not adding chloramines to the water.

Imidium Salt is real-
You might want to read:
Amino Acids, Peptides and Proteins
And read:
Imidate - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
And read:
Houben-Weyl Methods of Organic Chemistry Vol. E 23p, 4th Edition Supplement
And there are lots more chemistry books out there...
 

Cichlidude

Cichlidude, I don't know what was wrong with the tests or technique the person who wrote the article you linked above did, but I've done the exact same test myself a few times and it's worked every single time-Prime does detoxify ammonia. You can test it yourself. Get yourself some pure ammonia. Get an API ammonia alert-about $7 USD or a Salifert ammonia test kit-$13-$15 USD. Have your Seachem ammonia kit ready.
Dose some clean water with ammonia to 1 ppm. Prepare the Seachem ammonia alert (if you're using that) by pre-moistening it with clean ammonia free water then submerge it in the ammonia water. It will react only to the NH3 in the water. The Salifert test will only react to NH3 as well. Dose the 1ppm ammonia water with the appropriate amount of Prime for the volume of water you have treated with ammonia. Stir it up and after a few minutes retest it with your API test and the Salifert test. The Salifert test will now test 0 ppm ammonia, the API test will still read 1 ppm ammonia. The Seachem ammonia alert will slowly return to the yellow color which is "safe" or detecting no NH3.
As far as dechlorinaton, the difference between the price of Prime and the price of the API dechlorinator is 3 cents per gallon for dechloraminating the water. Prime treats chlorine and chloramine in water at a dose of 5 ml per 50 gallons. The API product takes 5 ml per 30 gallons to detoxify chloramine. Since most large domestic water treatment plants in the US are now switching to using chloramine to treat water supplies (it lasts longer than clorine in treated water) it would be prudent to pre-treat all tank water with the dose to remove chloramine unless you know for sure, on any given day, that your water provider is not adding chloramines to the water.

Imidium Salt is real-
You might want to read:
Amino Acids, Peptides and Proteins
And read:
Imidate - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
And read:
Houben-Weyl Methods of Organic Chemistry Vol. E 23p, 4th Edition Supplement
And there are lots more chemistry books out there...
Sorry... but Seachem has not published proof and does not have any information that it detoxifies anything, except chlorine/cloramine. They know this and that's why they keep quiet. Email them yourself and ask for positive independent proof. You will receive none.

Edit - I'm sorry, maybe I missed it. Could you please point to which article specifically tested Seachem Prime/Safe? I can't find the article that shows any testing or any conclusions. In fact I can't even find the words Seachem Prime/Safe anywhere.

Article and page number would be great.

Oh, and here is the correct testing that has proved Seachem is wrong.
 

Momgoose56

Sorry... but Seachem has not published proof and does not have any information that it detoxifies anything, except chlorine/cloramine. They know this and that's why they keep quiet. Email them yourself and ask for positive independent proof. You will receive none.

Edit - I'm sorry, maybe I missed it. Could you please point to which article specifically tested Seachem Prime/Safe? I can't find the article that shows any testing or any conclusions. In fact I can't even find the words Seachem Prime/Safe anywhere.

Article and page number would be great.

Oh, and here is the correct testing that has proved Seachem is wrong.
I read that link. The author claims that seachem prime and safe don't do what they claim. He also states that there's no such thing as imidium salt and that you can't "Google it". You can, I did. The links I provided above take you directly to pages of chemistry books that show formulas and compounds that contain imidium salts or their precursors.
I guess you didn't read my post or the links I provided above completely. I don't need Seachem to prove that Prime detoxifies NH3. I proved it myself as I stated above. As I always say, be careful what you believe from self proclaimed "experts" on the internet.
Lol! There's nothing that "blows my mind" any more!
 

Cichlidude

I read that link. The author claims that seachem prime and safe don't do what they claim. He also states that there's no such thing as imidium salt and that you can't "Google it". You can, I did. The links I provided above take you directly to pages of chemistry books that show formulas and compounds that contain imidium salts or their precursors.
I guess you didn't read my post or the links I provided above completely. I don't need Seachem to prove that Prime detoxifies NH3. I proved it myself as I stated above. As I always say, be careful what you believe from self proclaimed "experts" on the internet.
Lol! There's nothing that "blows my mind" any more!
Yes, he also stated that Seachem made a mistake in spelling and corrected the post. Don't really care about all the chemistry that you posted because it has nothing to do with Seachem. Your first posted said that you eliminated all ammonia with Prime, nothing about Detoxify (they are not the same). So we know that can't be true. Just putting Prime in a glass of water and stating that ammonia is magically gone... yeah... right. Sorry.

Funny you say that you can do it, but Seachem can not.

But keep up the good work! I think you can cycle tanks with the best of them!
 

Momgoose56

Yes, he also stated that Seachem made a mistake in spelling and corrected the post. Don't really care about all the chemistry that you posted because it has nothing to do with Seachem. Your first posted said that you eliminated all ammonia with Prime, nothing about Detoxify (they are not the same). So we know that can't be true. Just putting Prime in a glass of water and stating that ammonia is magically gone... yeah... right. Sorry.

Funny you say that you can do it, but Seachem can not.

But keep up the good work! I think you can cycle tanks with the best of them!
I did NOT say it "eliminated all the ammonia". You need to read my post again. You are having some trouble understanding my post apparently. As I said in the post, the Salifert and Seachem ammonia alert both showed no reaction to NH3 after the Prime was added. The API Master kit ammonia test still tested positive for NH3/NH4 -in the water. The NH3 didn't "disappear", it was apparently converted to NH4. Seachem suggested doing that test. What are you talking about when you say "Seachem cannot" do that test? They obviously know it works, otherwise why would they suggest doing it on their Q/A blog?
Your self proclaimed Chemistry "expert", who seems to believe that imidium salts are a contrived conspiracy, is the one who couldn't do it.
 

david1978

Now now children fight nice. Lol.
 

Cichlidude

Yes, we are done.

From the test...

Prime and Safe failed to neutralize or detoxify ANY ammonia PER THE TEST RECOMMENDED BY SEACHEM!
 

kcopper

I personally have a hard time believing anything from Seachem. Nevertheless, this link is quite fascinating and is scientifically accurate. It also made me think that people should be dropping both their temperature and pH when they are having ammonia issues during cycling.


Cichlidude, I don't know what was wrong with the tests or technique the person who wrote the article you linked above did, but I've done the exact same test myself a few times and it's worked every single time-Prime does detoxify ammonia. You can test it yourself. Get yourself some pure ammonia. Get an API ammonia alert-about $7 USD or a Salifert ammonia test kit-$13-$15 USD. Have your Seachem ammonia kit ready.
Dose some clean water with ammonia to 1 ppm. Prepare the Seachem ammonia alert (if you're using that) by pre-moistening it with clean ammonia free water then submerge it in the ammonia water. It will react only to the NH3 in the water. The Salifert test will only react to NH3 as well. Dose the 1ppm ammonia water with the appropriate amount of Prime for the volume of water you have treated with ammonia. Stir it up and after a few minutes retest it with your API test and the Salifert test. The Salifert test will now test 0 ppm ammonia, the API test will still read 1 ppm ammonia. The Seachem ammonia alert will slowly return to the yellow color which is "safe" or detecting no NH3.
As far as dechlorinaton, the difference between the price of Prime and the price of the API dechlorinator is 3 cents per gallon for dechloraminating the water. Prime treats chlorine and chloramine in water at a dose of 5 ml per 50 gallons. The API product takes 5 ml per 30 gallons to detoxify chloramine. Since most large domestic water treatment plants in the US are now switching to using chloramine to treat water supplies (it lasts longer than clorine in treated water) it would be prudent to pre-treat all tank water with the dose to remove chloramine unless you know for sure, on any given day, that your water provider is not adding chloramines to the water.

Imidium Salt is real-
You might want to read:
Amino Acids, Peptides and Proteins
And read:
Imidate - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
And read:
Houben-Weyl Methods of Organic Chemistry Vol. E 23p, 4th Edition Supplement
And there are lots more chemistry books out there...
Everything I can find about the Salifert Ammonia test kit indicates that it tests for total ammonia, not just free ammonia. Your Salifert test should be giving you the same reading as the API test. Something doesn't add up with your results. Please explain if I am misunderstanding you.
 

Cichlidude

Very simple.

Sodium dithionite removes chlorine because it is a reducing agent and chlorine gas is a strong oxidizing agent. It is exactly equivalent to sodium thiosulfate as a remover of chlorine, no better, no worse.

Prime and Safe are sodium dithionite according to Seachems MDS. There are NO chemicals which will neutralize ammonia, NONE!

Ammonia and nitrite must be OXIDIZED to nitrate to detoxify them and sodium dithionite is a REDUCING agent. It is impossible to have a chemical which acts both as an oxidizer and as a reducing agent. The two are mutually exclusive.
 

MissPanda

Interesting to read the different perspectives. You guy had me go digging and find this video I watched on youtube a long time ago. The guy took water out of his tank in the test tube and when it went purple (nitrites) he directly poured prime into the test tube, and you can see it goes to the blue color. This video is what convinced me it worked. I would love to try a test myself. I will have to take chemistry for my upgrading sometime this year, so maybe I'll make that a homework project. Experiments are fun. Sometimes we do just eat up what were fed, whether for or against. It's nice to actually do the legwork and see for yourself. Anyways, this is that video... thoughts ???

 

Cichlidude

Interesting to read the different perspectives. You guy had me go digging and find this video I watched on youtube a long time ago. The guy took water out of his tank in the test tube and when it went purple (nitrites) he directly poured prime into the test tube, and you can see it goes to the blue color. This video is what convinced me it worked. I would love to try a test myself. I will have to take chemistry for my upgrading sometime this year, so maybe I'll make that a homework project. Experiments are fun. Sometimes we do just eat up what were fed, whether for or against. It's nice to actually do the legwork and see for yourself. Anyways, this is that video... thoughts ???

I'm sorry... where is the color blue on the API test kit for ammonia? There is none. No ammonia is all yellow.
 

MissPanda

I'm sorry... where is the color blue on the API test kit for ammonia? There is none. Knowing there are at least a couple of hundred colors for blue... ??

His test was the nitrites. Ammonia is yellow/green and nitrites is blue/purple. (API) prime claims to detoxify ammonia and nitrites. He only did the one test, so I'd assume he only had a nitrite issue in his tank and that's why he didnt try the ammonia too. That's why it would be interesting to do for myself. It atleast shows it detoxifys nitrites, no??
 

AvalancheDave

Everything I can find about the Salifert Ammonia test kit indicates that it tests for total ammonia, not just free ammonia.

You are correct.

Sodium dithionite removes chlorine because it is a reducing agent and chlorine gas is a strong oxidizing agent. It is exactly equivalent to sodium thiosulfate as a remover of chlorine, no better, no worse.

Dithionite is actually inferior to thiosulfate in many ways:


dithionite vs thiosulfate.png

Making chlorine greener: investigation of alternatives to sulfite for dechlorination. - PubMed - NCBI

Prime and Safe are sodium dithionite according to Seachems SDS.

It's evidence that it's dithionite but not conclusive. Not everything on that site is correct though it's more correct than just about any other collection of aquarium information. At one point he references someone who has a PhD in marine biology. I Googled and Googled and that person does not exist. It makes me doubt that he used a Ramen[sic] spectrometer to identify the dithionite.

Additionally, dithionite may not be the only ingredient. There may be a 2nd ingredient that reacts with ammonia.

Ammonia and nitrite must be OXIDIZED to nitrate to detoxify them and sodium dithionite is a REDUCING agent. It is impossible to have a chemical which acts both as an oxidizer and as a reducing agent. The two are mutually exclusive.

It's possible to be both but it's not relevant to this discussion.

Interesting to read the different perspectives. You guy had me go digging and find this video I watched on youtube a long time ago. The guy took water out of his tank in the test tube and when it went purple (nitrites) he directly poured prime into the test tube, and you can see it goes to the blue color. This video is what convinced me it worked. I would love to try a test myself. I will have to take chemistry for my upgrading sometime this year, so maybe I'll make that a homework project. Experiments are fun. Sometimes we do just eat up what were fed, whether for or against. It's nice to actually do the legwork and see for yourself. Anyways, this is that video... thoughts ???

There are a few problems with this video...
  1. Oxidizing and reducing agents are known to interfere with colorimetric tests. Kordon was the first to make the claim that their product (AmQuel Plus) neutralized nitrite and nitrate on the basis of their colorimetric tests. An independent lab was hired to redo the test using ion chromatography and found AmQuel+ didn't actually reduce or bind nitrite/nitrate
  2. The dosage is way, way too high
  3. Dithionite is used as an industrial bleaching agent so it's probably going to have some effect on color.
Put a drop of Prime in the test tube of a pH, kH, gH or other test and it will probably interfere with those even though we know Prime doesn't affect those parameters in a tank.
 

NevermindIgnoreMe

Interesting...I still like stress coat tho because I feel like the added aloe is better than no aloe? Either way I know they all do pretty much the same thing. But this is definitely going to make me question/research what these companies are putting out to us. My biggest thing I always advise people about is to not follow the feeding instructions on the back of fish food labels. Heres an example copy and pasted of the tetra tropical fish food "Feed 2 - 3 times daily, in small amounts, only as much as your fish can consume within several minutes". IMO that is SO much food to feed a fish. And several minutes? Some people might think that means 2 min, others might take that as 10 min. Most fish also won't stop consuming the food, they just eat until they pop. Probably just to get you to run out of food faster and buy more. All this is interesting stuff, thanks guys.
100% agree Sien, those instructions have no doubt killed people's fish. Overfeeding is a serious issue and kills fish, but these big brand company don't care, as long as they make an extra buck or two.
 

kcopper

There are a few problems with this video...
  1. Oxidizing and reducing agents are known to interfere with colorimetric tests. Kordon was the first to make the claim that their product (AmQuel Plus) neutralized nitrite and nitrate on the basis of their colorimetric tests. An independent lab was hired to redo the test using ion chromatography and found AmQuel+ didn't actually reduce or bind nitrite/nitrate
  2. The dosage is way, way too high
  3. Dithionite is used as an industrial bleaching agent so it's probably going to have some effect on color.
Put a drop of Prime in the test tube of a pH, kH, gH or other test and it will probably interfere with those even though we know Prime doesn't affect those parameters in a tank.
I just want to comment on your second point. You are absolutely correct. He added sooooooo much undiluted prime. 10% of that test tube was prime. That would be like adding 6 gallons of prime to a 60 gallon tank. The video was catastrophically nonscientific.
 

david1978

I just want to comment on your second point. You are absolutely correct. He added sooooooo much undiluted prime. 10% of that test tube was prime. That would be like adding 6 gallons of prime to a 60 gallon tank. The video was catastrophically nonscientific.
So basically he diluted it.
 

MissPanda

There are a few problems with this video...
  1. Oxidizing and reducing agents are known to interfere with colorimetric tests. Kordon was the first to make the claim that their product (AmQuel Plus) neutralized nitrite and nitrate on the basis of their colorimetric tests. An independent lab was hired to redo the test using ion chromatography and found AmQuel+ didn't actually reduce or bind nitrite/nitrate
  2. The dosage is way, way too high
  3. Dithionite is used as an industrial bleaching agent so it's probably going to have some effect on color.
Put a drop of Prime in the test tube of a pH, kH, gH or other test and it will probably interfere with those even though we know Prime doesn't affect those parameters in a tank.

Ah that makes sense. Seems like the most effective way to reduce these is a good ol water change.
 

Cichlidude

Not everything on that site is correct though it's more correct than just about any other collection of aquarium information. At one point he references someone who has a PhD in marine biology. I Googled and Googled and that person does not exist. It makes me doubt that he used a Ramen[sic] spectrometer to identify the dithionite.

Funny I did the same thing and I did find his name. He does have a PhD, I looked up his patents and found the does have over 50 in the medical field. I found his Facebook page which is closed like everyone's and he lives in Florida retired.
 

Momgoose56

Yes, we are done.

From the test...

Prime and Safe failed to neutralize or detoxify ANY ammonia PER THE TEST RECOMMENDED BY SEACHEM!
Sorry, I did the test. Several times with low levels of ammonia (1ppm) which Prime is designed to detoxify. It worked every time. Do the test yourself. Or believe the stuff you read on the internet. The "chemist" you linked, did the test, dosing the tank's with 5 ppm ammonia and then 5 times the recommended normal dose of Prime. Those levels are not what Seachem made the product for. A 5x dose is only suggested as an emergency measure in the event that water changes can't be done.
The links I posted for you above are just meant to challenge the veracity of the "expert chemist" you seem so determined to believe instead of checking the facts yourself.

Everything I can find about the Salifert Ammonia test kit indicates that it tests for total ammonia, not just free ammonia. Your Salifert test should be giving you the same reading as the API test. Something doesn't add up with your results. Please explain if I am misunderstanding you.
I saw that, but the kit I bought said it was an NH3 reagent and that's how it acted when I did the test.
 

kcopper

Sorry, I did the test. Several times with low levels of ammonia (1ppm) which Prime is designed to detoxify. It worked every time. Do the test yourself. Or believe the stuff you read on the internet. The "chemist" you linked, did the test, dosing the tank's with 5 ppm ammonia and then 5 times the recommended normal dose of Prime. Those levels are not what Seachem made the product for. A 5x dose is only suggested as an emergency measure in the event that water changes can't be done.
The links I posted for you above are just meant to challenge the veracity of the "expert chemist" you seem so determined to believe instead of checking the facts yourself.
In another post we were involved in, you stated that the mechanism of detoxification was to convert the toxic ammonia(free ammonia) to relatively nontoxic ammonium.
Then, in the description of your test, you indicated that the Salifert test showed no remaining ammonia after addition of Prime, but the API kit still continued to show the 1ppm total ammonia. Both the Salifert test kit and the API test kit both measure total ammonia and not just free ammonia. They should both be reading 1ppm still.
This would lead me to believe that one of the following is accurate:
  1. Your description of the test results is inaccurate
  2. Your test method was inaccurate
Additionally, if the Seachem ammonia alert is measuring only free ammonia, the results would be highly dependent upon baseline temperature and pH, as well as the change in these parameters throughout the testing period.

I constantly go back to the idea that if these products truly did what they claimed to do, the companies would publish all of the results. There should be videos on YouTube showing their efficacy and data plastered across their website. Showing proof of your product is one of the most fundamental concepts of marketing. What conceivable reason would there be to not publish results? And don't give me "it is too expensive" - the tests are not terribly complex.
 

Cichlidude

Sorry, I did the test. Several times with low levels of ammonia (1ppm) which Prime is designed to detoxify. It worked every time. Do the test yourself. Or believe the stuff you read on the internet. The "chemist" you linked, did the test, dosing the tank's with 5 ppm ammonia and then 5 times the recommended normal dose of Prime. Those levels are not what Seachem made the product for. A 5x dose is only suggested as an emergency measure in the event that water changes can't be done.
The links I posted for you above are just meant to challenge the veracity of the "expert chemist" you seem so determined to believe instead of checking the facts yourself.

OK so you state the following:

***

Dose some clean water with ammonia to 1 ppm. Prepare the Seachem ammonia alert (if you're using that) by pre-moistening it with clean ammonia free water then submerge it in the ammonia water. It will react only to the NH3 in the water. The Salifert test will only react to NH3 as well. Dose the 1ppm ammonia water with the appropriate amount of Prime for the volume of water you have treated with ammonia. Stir it up and after a few minutes retest it with your API test and the Salifert test. The Salifert test will now test 0 ppm ammonia, the API test will still read 1 ppm ammonia. The Seachem ammonia alert will slowly return to the yellow color which is "safe" or detecting no NH3.

***

Right there you answered the question itself. The problem is that no pH level was mentioned in your test. So your own test said dose 1 ppm water with ammonia, then add Prime and the test again and you still have 1 ppm ammonia.

That’s pretty conclusive proof on your part that Prime does not work, thank you.


The Seachem Ammonia Alert does not have a good track record. That’s why Seachem always state to check with a liquid test kit for accuracy.


Using 5X the dosage would mean that you could easily see any drop in ammonia if Prime worked, and that was not seen. Proving that more is not better in this case. I checked on the Salifert test and it just another company that provides the same thing as the API test kit. They all have their errors. The web article did however use the Salifert test for ammonia the same conclusion was met, no change in ammonia.

From Seachems own admission:

Seachem Tech Support MS, 11-09-2011, 18:23
Re: Prime questions…

Thanks for the question. Prime converts ammonia into a complexed imidium salt.

Note: There is no such thing as imidium salt. But Seachem did correct this error.


Seachem became aware that their “iminum” claim had been exposed. So someone in Seachem Marketing Googled “iminium” and Google redirected them to “imidium”, an actual chemical species. So the marketer simply said that “iminium” was a typo and they actually meant to say “imidium”. They knew most people would lack the chemical training to know Seachem was knowingly making a false claim. (From the article)

The above happens all the time with Google.

Continuing on from Seachems own words:

Prime will also bind with nitrite and nitrate, however, it will not prevent bacteria from consuming these compounds as well. Unfortunately, while we have researched it extensively in our laboratory, I do not have any documents that I can provide you as proof.



So, Seachem has no documentation or any proof of detoxifying ammonia since Prime is a reducing agent which only reduces chlorine/chloramine to 0. It is not an oxidation agent. The only way to get rid of ammonia is through oxidation, which Prime and all other de-chlorinators cannot do. Proven all over the web for this statement.

Funny, calling Seachem they said they are the only facility in the world, have about 60 employees and employ only 1 chemist that does all their products. Their facility there is marketing and distribution. Asking if anyone could visit, look around and talk with some folks there… they so no, they are not open to the public you cannot talk to anyone and you cannot talk to the chemist.

Fascinating… (said Spock)
 

Momgoose56

In another post we were involved in, you stated that the mechanism of detoxification was to convert the toxic ammonia(free ammonia) to relatively nontoxic ammonium.
Then, in the description of your test, you indicated that the Salifert test showed no remaining ammonia after addition of Prime, but the API kit still continued to show the 1ppm total ammonia. Both the Salifert test kit and the API test kit both measure total ammonia and not just free ammonia. They should both be reading 1ppm still.
This would lead me to believe that one of the following is accurate:
  1. Your description of the test results is inaccurate
  2. Your test method was inaccurate
Additionally, if the Seachem ammonia alert is measuring only free ammonia, the results would be highly dependent upon baseline temperature and pH, as well as the change in these parameters throughout the testing period.

I constantly go back to the idea that if these products truly did what they claimed to do, the companies would publish all of the results. There should be videos on YouTube showing their efficacy and data plastered across their website. Showing proof of your product is one of the most fundamental concepts of marketing. What conceivable reason would there be to not publish results? And don't give me "it is too expensive" - the tests are not terribly complex.
The "testing period" only took about 30 minutes so I'm sure the water temp didn't change. I was starting a cycle on a ten gallon tank and used that af aan excuse to do the test with my new Salifert NH3 ammonia test kit. My tank temp was 78 t/o the last test I did a several years ago, and my pH had dropped from 8.2 to 7.8 for some reason during the test (it drops that much overnight still, but I don't know why it did it during the test). I can't explan why the Salifert test reacted the way it did. I need to check and see if they've changed their reagent. I did that last test around 2010, a year before my Cichlid tank blew up.
Here's another guy that got the Salifert NH3 test and had some problems even getting an ammonia reading.
Salifert NH3 test and Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride -
It may have been a crummy kit I got. I need to contact the manufacturer to ask some questions. I had only used the ammonia alert the previous times I did the test.
I haven't seen very many pharmaceutical, dog food, fish food, or household cleaning product companies etc. that "publish the results" of their research either". Did you actually ever do any research yourself for any company or even original research for a university? Apparently not. For profit companies make the most money on products that are unique to that company. That's why they get patents on their formulas and exactly why they don't publish their research or disclose their 'secrets'. It's unfortunate sometimes that that is the way this country works. Private information doesn't have to be shared, not even life saving information. Universities are the exception. Most academic research is published and shared. That way all the universities and even private companies can expand on that research.
So, companies use the term 'proprietary information' for a reason.
The laws in most developed countries require that certain chemicals and ingredients be disclosed in products the public uses, even unregulated industries (like animal feed and supplies), but not the way those ingredients are put together, the amounts that are used in the product or specific data or results of testing.

OK so you state the following:

***

Dose some clean water with ammonia to 1 ppm. Prepare the Seachem ammonia alert (if you're using that) by pre-moistening it with clean ammonia free water then submerge it in the ammonia water. It will react only to the NH3 in the water. The Salifert test will only react to NH3 as well. Dose the 1ppm ammonia water with the appropriate amount of Prime for the volume of water you have treated with ammonia. Stir it up and after a few minutes retest it with your API test and the Salifert test. The Salifert test will now test 0 ppm ammonia, the API test will still read 1 ppm ammonia. The Seachem ammonia alert will slowly return to the yellow color which is "safe" or detecting no NH3.

***

Right there you answered the question itself. The problem is that no pH level was mentioned in your test. So your own test said dose 1 ppm water with ammonia, then add Prime and the test again and you still have 1 ppm ammonia.

That’s pretty conclusive proof on your part that Prime does not work, thank you.


The Seachem Ammonia Alert does not have a good track record. That’s why Seachem always state to check with a liquid test kit for accuracy.

From the article:

Just to insure accuracy the samples were then retested with several total ammonia test kits (Tetra EasyStrips, Salifert Ammonia, Seachem total ammonia, API Ammonia test). The ammonia level on all measured roughly 5 ppm.

They used 5 ppm as this will show any change more than just a 1ppm. Salifert test showed the same as all the others in the tests. Seachem also states you can dose 5X of Prime.



Using 5X the dosage would mean that you could easily see any drop in ammonia if Prime worked, and that was not seen. Proving that more is not better in this case. I checked on the Salifert test and it just another company that provides the same thing as the API test kit. They all have their errors. The web article did however use the Salifert test for ammonia the same conclusion was met, no change in ammonia.

From Seachems own admission:

Seachem Tech Support MS, 11-09-2011, 18:23
Re: Prime questions…

Thanks for the question. Prime converts ammonia into a complexed imidium salt.

Note: There is no such thing as imidium salt. But Seachem did correct this error.


Seachem became aware that their “iminum” claim had been exposed. So someone in Seachem Marketing Googled “iminium” and Google redirected them to “imidium”, an actual chemical species. So the marketer simply said that “iminium” was a typo and they actually meant to say “imidium”. They knew most people would lack the chemical training to know Seachem was knowingly making a false claim. (From the article)

The above happens all the time with Google.

Continuing on from Seachems own words:

Prime will also bind with nitrite and nitrate, however, it will not prevent bacteria from consuming these compounds as well. Unfortunately, while we have researched it extensively in our laboratory, I do not have any documents that I can provide you as proof.



So, Seachem has no documentation or any proof of detoxifying ammonia since Prime is a reducing agent which only reduces chlorine/chloramine to 0. It is not an oxidation agent. The only way to get rid of ammonia is through oxidation, which Prime and all other de-chlorinators cannot do. Proven all over the web for this statement.

Funny, calling Seachem they said they are the only facility in the world, have about 60 employees and employ only 1 chemist that does all their products. Their facility there is marketing and distribution. Asking if anyone could visit, look around and talk with some folks there… they so no, they are not open to the public you cannot talk to anyone and you cannot talk to the chemist.

Fascinating… (said Spock)
Of course the representative for Seachem, Tetra, Fluval and the rest don't have "documents" they can give you! Seachem doesn't have to provide their research results. This is a democratic, capitalistic society. Would you publish your secrets if you invented something? Or would you patent it and make as much money as you could on it? Give me a break.
 

Cichlidude

Of course the representative for Seachem, Tetra, Fluval and the rest don't have "documents" they can give you! Seachem doesn't have to provide their research results. This is a democratic, capitalistic society. Would you publish your secrets if you invented something? Or would you patent it and make as much money as you could on it? Give me a break.
I see you have moved from proof mode to deflection mode.

Seachem never said they would send me anything. They said they have no proof, period. Which means they can’t send anything to anybody, that is quite different.

As far as patents go, Seachem has none at all. You don’t think I did my homework? Yes I sent them email as asked for the patent on Prime or any US patents that they have.

Here is the email:

***

Hello,

Just wanted to know if Seachem Prime is patented. I would like to know
the following please.

1. Is just the name Prime patented?
2. Are the ingredients like Sodium Dithionite (from Seachem MDS) are
patented to Seachem?

I can't find this on Seachems web site.

Please point me to the Seachem web site for the URL for this or the
internet URL. If you could just send me the PDF for that patent, that
would be great too.

Thank you very much.

***

Here is Seachems response:

***

Hello, thanks for reaching out!

Prime is a registered trademark. What is published on our website, and what is available to you on the SDS is as far as we can release. Anything beyond that is proprietary.

Thank you and have a great day!

Seachem


***

To which I replied:

Thank you for that information.

One more question please. How many Patents does Seachem hold?

Thank you.

***

Seachem replied:

You can use the United States Patent and Trademark Office's website as this is public information.

https://www.uspto.gov

Best,

Seachem


***

I searched many patent web sites including the one above. There are none for Seachem. Go ahead, check it out. Just to let you know, SDS forms do not include any materials or ingredients, the MDS does by law.

Seachem has ZERO patents on anything (that I can find). All Seachem has is a trademark on anything they name, like Prime. Same as Amazon Prime, so they are not confused.

All Seachem does it use off the shelf ingredients for all their products. Just like all the manufacturers in the Aquarium Industry.

You told me to check my facts? I did and proved it. However yours have been proved incorrect. Nobody wants to give wrong information stating that Prime will put an invisible Star Trek shield around your fish that will make ammonia safe. Only to find out later the ammonia has caused poisoning to those fish over the next few weeks or months. They may even die because of this information. Folks will not return for any follow up posts sadly.

Just change the water and add any de-chlorinator to the water you added. Nothing is gained by adding any more Prime 24-48 hours later. You have to find the issue of the problem. Most of the time it is inefficient filter media or the filter was thoroughly cleaned too much to be able to process the oxidation of ammonia in a reasonable amount of time, but nobody asks this question. Again, this will be difficult.

Just to let you know, the United States is a Republic and not a Democracy, proven on the web or if you recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
 

AvalancheDave

There are dechlorinator patents by Tetra and others. ClorAm-X is patented and the ingredients disclosed.

The ClorAm-X patent is actually quite detailed, describing how it works and the tests performed. However, a later Tetra patent says it doesn't react with ammonia. We'll see.

Why is Seachem so secretive? Is it because their stuff is really good? Or is it because they're afraid that people will find out their formulas are rather mundane or outright don't work?
 

Cichlidude

There are dechlorinator patents by Tetra and others. ClorAm-X is patented and the ingredients disclosed.

The ClorAm-X patent is actually quite detailed, describing how it works and the tests performed. However, a later Tetra patent says it doesn't react with ammonia. We'll see.

Why is Seachem so secretive? Is it because their stuff is really good? Or is it because they're afraid that people will find out their formulas are rather mundane or outright don't work?
I have not verified any other manufacturer. Sorry. Don't know the answer to the last sentence but Seachem does not know either I guess.
 

Momgoose56

I see you have moved from proof mode to deflection mode.

Seachem never said they would send me anything. They said they have no proof, period. Which means they can’t send anything to anybody, that is quite different.

As far as patents go, Seachem has none at all. You don’t think I did my homework? Yes I sent them email as asked for the patent on Prime or any US patents that they have.

Here is the email:

***

Hello,

Just wanted to know if Seachem Prime is patented. I would like to know
the following please.

1. Is just the name Prime patented?
2. Are the ingredients like Sodium Dithionite (from Seachem MDS) are
patented to Seachem?

I can't find this on Seachems web site.

Please point me to the Seachem web site for the URL for this or the
internet URL. If you could just send me the PDF for that patent, that
would be great too.

Thank you very much.

***

Here is Seachems response:

***

Hello, thanks for reaching out!

Prime is a registered trademark. What is published on our website, and what is available to you on the SDS is as far as we can release. Anything beyond that is proprietary.

Thank you and have a great day!

Seachem


***

To which I replied:

Thank you for that information.

One more question please. How many Patents does Seachem hold?

Thank you.

***

Seachem replied:

You can use the United States Patent and Trademark Office's website as this is public information.

United States Patent and Trademark Office

Best,

Seachem


***

I searched many patent web sites including the one above. There are none for Seachem. Go ahead, check it out. Just to let you know, SDS forms do not include any materials or ingredients, the MDS does by law.

Seachem has ZERO patents on anything (that I can find). All Seachem has is a trademark on anything they name, like Prime. Same as Amazon Prime, so they are not confused.

All Seachem does it use off the shelf ingredients for all their products. Just like all the manufacturers in the Aquarium Industry.

You told me to check my facts? I did and proved it. However yours have been proved incorrect. Nobody wants to give wrong information stating that Prime will put an invisible Star Trek shield around your fish that will make ammonia safe. Only to find out later the ammonia has caused poisoning to those fish over the next few weeks or months. They may even die because of this information. Folks will not return for any follow up posts sadly.

Just change the water and add any de-chlorinator to the water you added. Nothing is gained by adding any more Prime 24-48 hours later. You have to find the issue of the problem. Most of the time it is inefficient filter media or the filter was thoroughly cleaned too much to be able to process the oxidation of ammonia in a reasonable amount of time, but nobody asks this question. Again, this will be difficult.

Just to let you know, the United States is a Republic and not a Democracy, proven on the web or if you recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
John F. Kuhns evidently invented, and owned or owns patents to ingredients in Seachem Prime and Safe too. Why don't you write him and ask him why he didn't publish that information?
Seachem's Prime- Ingredients? [Archive] -

Seachem Safe
 

Cichlidude

John F. Kuhns evidently invented ingredients in Seachem Prime and Safe too. Why don't you write him and ask him why he didn't publish that information?
Seachem's Prime- Ingredients? [Archive] -

Seachem Safe
OK, yes, and so do all other manufactures use the same ingredients as stated in that same paragraph. Don't know why he didn't publish that information, I think he may have.

Your doctor may have a patent on hydroxymethanesulfonate . Not the same a dithionite which is what Prime and all others. Did you read the small line above that post. Here:
***
The conversion of ammonnia to ammonium ion is just a pH effect, but ammonia does not react with dithionite.
***

Here are the patent(s) on Sodium Dithionite.

Dithionite Patents and Patent Applications (Class 423/515) - Justia Patents Search

Proof again, Prime does not work. It is only a de-chlorinator.
 

Momgoose56

OK, yes, and so do all other manufactures use the same ingredients as stated in that same paragraph. Don't know why he didn't publish that information, I think he may have.

Your doctor may have a patent on hydroxymethanesulfonate . Not the same a dithionite which is what Prime and all others. Did you read the small line above that post. Here:
***
The conversion of ammonnia to ammonium ion is just a pH effect, but ammonia does not react with dithionite.
***

Here is the patent(s) on Sodium Dithionite.

Dithionite Patents and Patent Applications (Class 423/515) - Justia Patents Search

Proof again, Prime does not work. It is only a de-chlorinator.
If he did publish it, it's searchable, right? If you are so convinced that it's useless and determined seachem is hiding something (I'm sure they just are avoiding infringement on John f. Kuhns legally protected patent rights, NOT hiding the information) why don't you search the patents? @AvalanchDave posted one of John F. Kuhn's published patents above-https://patents.google.com/patent/US4666610A
Patent information is proprietary for 20 years as long as the inventor pays the fees to maintain ownership of that information. Evidently and pretty obviously, Seachem obtained Kuhn's permission to use his formulas in their product but are prohibited by law to disclose the specific information about the formula until the patent expires or Kuhn's sells the patent to them.
 

Cichlidude

If he did publish it, it's searchable, right? If you are so convinced that it's useless and determined seachem is hiding something (I'm sure they just are avoiding infringement on John f. Kuhns legally protected patent rights, NOT hiding the information) why don't you search the patents? @AvalanchDave posted one of John F. Kuhn's published patents above-https://patents.google.com/patent/US4666610A
Patent information is proprietary for 20 years as long as the inventor pays the fees to maintain ownership of that information. Evidently and pretty obviously, Seachem obtained Kuhn's permission to use his formulas in their product but are prohibited by law to disclose the specific information about the formula until the patent expires or Kuhn's sells the patent to them.
And those patents state: consisting of sodium formaldehydebisulfite and potassium formaldehydebisulfite.

Seachem has already stated that they do not use any formaldehyde at all. Information is on their web site.
 

AvalancheDave

I don't think Prime uses the same ingredients as ClorAm-X. No way to really know without knowing what's in Prime.

I know there was some guy a few years ago that claimed they were the same but he had no evidence and wasn't taken seriously.

ClorAm-X doesn't have the same obnoxious sulfur odor as Prime/Safe.
 

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