Science Fair Project - Page 3

Scoutsfish

sounds good!

I hadn't really taken into consideration the fact the sun comes up gradually.... I am not sure how I could do that. Maybe just open my blinds and let some sunlight in, then turn lights on? Then again, would it really matter if they dimmed on/off or not? Also, these lights are very bright, I think I'll just do 10 hours.( when I had the 5 set up, it was algae covered!) maybe I'll do 10-12..(don't want to buy a timer, but will do my best to turn on and off same time each day. I'll probably end up turning the lights on lets say 630-7 every morning then off 430-5? (however, turning off at 330 would be a lot easier for me)

I didn't think they'd have actual o2 tests! interesting.. Do you think it'd be necessary to test phosphates or nitrogen levels(as I'm already testing nitrates..)
 

Angelbear

The idea is to try and mimic the natural environment as much as possiable to show the effects of runoff n a natural environment, and what it does to the water supply and how'd flucuates.

Topping off should be fine, I would think since a natural environment gets freshwater through rain, and currents. I would not do a full water change though.

I do not think there is a way to measure o2, however, algae takes up a lot of o2 especially when it covers the surface of the water. If I remember right. You could conclude that Tue more algae in the water the less o2 there is.

On dosing the tank, it would depend on if you wanted to show the effects of heavy runoff, or light runoff....ie the effects carried in a more diluted form father down stream. Going back to the liquid like water conditioner, I would do no more than a drop per gallon unless your showing really heavy runoff. You could also in fact do an experiment on differing ammounts of runoff and is there really a safe amoumt?

Farmers tend to water their crops daily so dosing once a day should be fine.
 

atc84

Testign for 02 throughout your expiriment imo is very important and would have a greater argument.

probably don't need to test phosphates.
 

Scoutsfish

Okay, so no to testing phosphates, yes to just topping off.

So 5 drops for the 5 gal daily? Any idea how much I should dilute the manure with water? Also, that would be an interesting experiment! maybe if I have enough time, I could test it? idk.

Hmm.. light or heavy runoff? Leaning towards heavy as it will show more dramatic changes.

I will see if I can order that 02 test. sounds like I'll need to change a couple things on my 'planning stage' paper.
 

Graphix

To dilute manure in water just put it in a cup, then mix it until diluted and pour it in the water.
 

Scoutsfish

Yes, but how diluted is diluted?
 

Angelbear

I would say until there is nothing floating around or a good bit is dissolved. I would also use declorinated water ahead of time so you won't have to worry about adding it to you tank
 

Scoutsfish

Ok.

I looked at the canal and there is maybe a foot of water in it, looks like less.. However it is a very long canal and I bet if I were to drive back there I could find a place with more water. Besides, the low water level will help me get the dirt as I'd need to climb into the canal to get it. In the summer the canal is very full and very fast, in the winter the water people turn something off and its lowered.

Also, if I get dirt from the bottom of the canal that is used to being submerged in water(the dirt is kinda muddy..) would it go through the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spike? I'm guessing no since it won't have to convery to being aquaticish.. right?
 

atc84

remember, decaying organics is what causes a nitrogen spike. Since it's probably very inert dirt, since it's been under the canal for centuries, it won't go through a cycle (probably).
 

Scoutsfish

That's what I was thinking sadly the jungle Val I got door this project is turning brown, but the contortion Val is doing good. The plants in the canal look like they've slightly frozen...
 

Scoutsfish

Okay. The canal doesn't have any/enough water in it for this experiment, winter came all too early. What should I do? I'm pretty sure the ground is also too frozen to get dirt from there, however I may be able to drive back there and climb into the snowy canal(hoping there's no ice I'll fall through-if there is it'll be just a few inches of water) and try and get some.. The paper is due soon and I've had no time to even start this thing.
 

FishTank Maniacz

Have you thought of trying out the Jordan river? Me and my friends go there a lot... Their is lots of cool things such as mosquito fish, duckweed, bladder snails, and what I believe to be some sort of penny wort plant. You could probably find a spot with not too much snow.
 

Scoutsfish

I haven't! How far away is it from you? Do you know if its frozen yet? If the plants aren't frozen id be able to also grab some and use them too I think the jordan river would look much better than some random canal on my paper.. lol! Now to find out exactly where it is... and to find buckets to hold maybe around 30 gallons of water(15 for the 2 tanks and 15 for water replacement when/if needed. Could probably get away with 20-25 gal. )

Also random history hw question. Are you doing the summarizing stuff before class on tuesday/ any idea when it's due?

Will also take any other advice you guys have! Any help is better than none!

My jungle val is pretty much a goner. I'm taking a few fish in tok the lfs to replace with more cories and I'm going to see if they have some good cheap plants in turn(ya never know) also, anyone have a good snail dip? I need to start researching this..
 

atc84

Also random history hw question. Are you doing the summarizing stuff before class on tuesday/ any idea when it's due?

you guys have the same class together?
 

FishTank Maniacz

The Jordan river is the border between Riverton and draper. As for it being frozen.... I don't think so but I could be wrong. I think the river hardly ever freezes over but it has been very cold lately. I saw it like 3 days ago and it was not frozen yet... It might be a little hard with all the snow.
 

Scoutsfish

Haha yup!

And that is good to know! I told my mom and she said we can go tomorrow hopefully its not frozen and stuff!!
 

Scoutsfish

Okay. We have the water! Not as much as I wanted, 5 or so gallons short but that's okay. We had to (or I had to) carry the water 15-20 gal or so up a steep rocky slope. We couldn't find an easier access but it worked.

The side of the bank we were on was rocky so I couldn't get dirt as it was across the river. Do u think it would be fine with just water and a little gravel? Or is dirt needed for the plants? I was planning on jungle val-however all the val I bought r it from peabodys is pretty much a complete gonner. I could possibly pick up a compact sword or something from petsmart tomorrow. I do have hornwort, which is a plus.

Tell me what you think
 

FishTank Maniacz

What part of the river were you at? Was it by 12600 south? There are a few places along the the river that are mushy dirt. But I guess the gravel may be fine..... Hornwort is more of a water column plant then root feeder right?
 

Scoutsfish

My mom says it was 14600 s... We could probably try 12600 s. And see if we can get the short there. It was getting dark and we were just glad to find a place we had access to the water considering my parents weren't quite sure where to go.
Yes, you're right, hornwort is water column, but I wanted a root feeder too.. so wasn't sure.
 

FishTank Maniacz

Ok sounds good... I haven't been down that far south very often. Lets hope it all works out!
 

Scoutsfish

What west is it on 12600, do you know?
 

FishTank Maniacz

Ya, 12600 is usually where we start. Then we either hang out at the river their or ride our bikes to 11400 south.
 

Scoutsfish

But do you know what part of 12600 it is? Like what east or west?
 

FishTank Maniacz

It's about 1200 west. If you don't have luck their, try 11400 south
 

Scoutsfish

I got the dirt a couple weeks ago, and set up the tanks 9 days ago. I have been feeding the shrimp/ snails about every other day, alternating algae wafers and shrimp pellets. I got 20 shrimp for the 10 gal control tank and am down to 18-1 due to injury either in bag or while caatching at store, the other I'm unsure but am blaming either territory issues(there's this one big female that is mean to the others and I found her eating the dead shrimp..) or the amm/nitrite present. The 5 gal has 10 shrimp and is my riable tank.

I've been adding 10ml to the 5 gal daily(a lot, but am seeing changes. I'm adding more due to the time crunch). I tested the water 3 days ago, but attat time I had about .25-.50 amm, 2-5 trite and 5 trate. The pH is surprising high at 8.4 but lowered down to 8.2 after 5 days of tank being tested.. the gh and kh are incredibly high too, off the charts-either that or I'm somehow testing wrong. The 10 gal has lower trite, slightly higher amm, same trate, 8.4 ph and same/slightly lower gh and kh. I was unable to get an oxygen tes kit.

The tanks started with 3 feet in the 10 and 1.5 feet in the 5 gallon of hornwort. As of 3 days ago, it was 3.5 ft and 2 ft. I couldn't find any rooted plants in time that would work, other thn my favorite compact sword in the 29, or the slow growing crypts or wisteria which is water column feeder.

I also found a freshwater clam that slipped in with my mud/dirt! Its nickel sized, hoping it lives past the experiment. It'd be cool in my sand substrate 15 gal. I leave lights on for 12 hrs and am starting to see algae growth. Especially the 5gal. The 5 also has slightly cloudy/ water tinted green mostly due to the fertilizer mix(4 cups or so river water and about 2 cups horse manure.) We will see how things go. Water level stays above filter line too. I'm testing the water today
 

FishTank Maniacz

Sounds good! How long is the experiment going to be?
 

Scoutsfish

As long as possible!! Its due the 21st.. maybe finish/ end it like the 18th.. only 9/10 more days for things to really happen! Ahh

Word of advice: never procrastinate...
 

atc84

hahaha, well hopefully you will end up with the result you want it would have been better if it was a month or longer process, since it would give it more time to change, but alas, the evil procrastinate demon has struck again! xD
 

Scoutsfish

I tested the water tonight. The results after 9 days are:

10 gal control tank:
Ammonia:0-.5
Nitrite: 2-5ppm
Nitrate: 10
pH: 8.4
GH: 214.8
KH: 179 ish

5 gal:
Ammonia: 0-.25
Nitrite:2-5
Nitrate: 10
pH: 8.2-8.4( a smidge lighter than other tank, but not much)
GH: 214.8
KH: 179 ish

These aren't the results I've been hoping for. Why isn't there a change in any of these? Should I up the 10 ml fertilizer daily to 20 ml? Also, does anyone else have issues with the gh and kh testing? The thing never goes green again for gh or yellow again for kh. Is it really supposed to?? Also, is it normal for air bubbles to be trapped beneath the dirt? I've been using the net to poke the substrate and release the bubbles but they're always back the next day. I really wish I had more time, but I don't.
 

atc84

You are doing your best to replicate a very complicated process, it's not easy replicating nature! There are many factors that can change your results. since you're running out of time I think you should increase the amount of fertilizer. Also the difference in the hornwort between tanks will change your results, since more plants means more nitrogen being converted. If there is no apparent difference between tanks, I would increase it to 30 ml.
 

Teleost

Ending up with the result you want is not science.

If an experiment gives you data different to your expectations, you need to evaluate whether your initial hypothesis was flawed, whether your methods were adequate/appropriate and come up with either a new hypothesis, revised methods/experimental design or suggest future directions for the line of enquiry.

Altering your experiment to obtain the data you want is the one of the worst things you can do in science.

In science, no result IS a result!
 

Scoutsfish

Thanks for your help guys! So, increase fertilizer or no? Its the 10th day, so that would be a good marking point to change it if I do. I know its not all on what I was expecting etc, but its on what I read on all of the sites I read on..
 

atc84

well considering scoutsfish doesn't have the exact water to fertilizer ratio in the real world scenario, we can assume the variable that is lacking is the amount. Considering this is a school science fair, not a documented experiment, it is more important to come up with a result. Do what you think scoutsfish.
 

Scoutsfish

There's more algae in the 5, but parameters are the same.. what would you guys do?? Also, Iwent onto the state round last year so it is possible I go to that around again or even past that(not counting on going past.... lol) should I or no??
 

atc84

well you could explain your reasoning for the extra fertilizer is because the lakes had been pre-established and a large change in nutrients will cause algae growth, which would justify adding more. Just a thought...
 

Scoutsfish

The crunch is on! It's due tuesday. I have to write up the 250 word abstract, get pictures developed, write the conclusion, make a result/data graph and put the board all together! I'll let you guys know how it goes. I tested the water today(tested early morning so counted it as yesterday/day 18. last time tested was day 9 so I thought day 18 would look slightly better. didn't have time last night and figured this morn wouldn't change much.) and got results of 10g: 0amm,1trite,5-10trate,8.2 pH still super high gh/kh. 5gal: .25 amm, 2 trite, 20 trate, 8.0-8.2 pH same gh/kh. Looks like I have some results! The 5 gallon has slightly lower pH, higher amm/trite/trate as expected. I think adding the 20ml really helped.

Also, the 5 gallon is so green/cloudy I can hardly even see the shrimp! 1 female shrimp in each tank is berried.. in the 10g, there are strange clear w/ whiteish dots inside like gel looking sacks. I counted 5 the other day, now have about 10. googled it and these seem to be ramshorn snail eggs. I have plans for the shrimp when this experiment is done.. what should I do with the snails? They're not going in any of my other tanks(already having 'fun' with them in the 29 g) I'd feel slightly bad just right out killing them. Also, the biggest is .5-1 inch now. the rest are tiny, squishable babies.
 

atc84

I think the 20 nitrates vs. 10 is very important, and if the water is green then that is a major result. Also aren't 20 and 10 nitrates on the test kit basically the same color?
 

Scoutsfish

Pretty much, the 5 gallon was a bit darker though. Ive been taking pics of the tanks, just wish the green showed more on pics. It's not really algae green but more horse muck green.. Lol getting pics developed at costco Monday. Am doing conclusion stuff tomorrow. I had a horse awards thing tonight so project was put on hold for few hrs.
 

ravenlady13

Pretty much, the 5 gallon was a bit darker though. Ive been taking pics of the tanks, just wish the green showed more on pics. It's not really algae green but more horse muck green.. Lol getting pics developed at costco Monday. Am doing conclusion stuff tomorrow. I had a horse awards thing tonight so project was put on hold for few hrs.

What kind of horse awards? English, Western, driving, conformation? I used to do contesting events until my usual horse went lame and the one I got stuck with was the barn klutz. Tripped over his own hooves and fell over on my knee. Squished it pretty decently lol he got up, looked at me, and went and put his head in the corner of the arena like a kid in timeout
 

Scoutsfish

I ride saddleseat/country english, showhack and arabian native costume. I'm going to try sidesaddle this year too and I've done hunter english in the past. The award was vbasically for showing up and working/helping when not being asked but next month I get a highpoint award in equitation. I got reserve champ, wouldbe gotten champion but I missed one horse show..

Sorry to hear yours went lame, Ihate when that happens! I lease my own horse now and luckily she hasn't gotten seriously hurt or sick in the 3 yrs she's been 'mine'. Do you still ride at all? Btw excuse my typos.. lol having typing issues today
 

ravenlady13

Unfortunately, I can't actually afford to ride anymore, since I'm regrettably an adult and can't rely on my parents to pay for stuff anymore.

I started off riding English, switched to western because my form on the flat was laughable and my form over fences was a bit alarming. I generally had a 50/50 rate of going over the jump with a horse under me. I hit every variation from going without the horse to the horse going without me lol

Oddly enough, I could never get the position right in English riding, but I could stay on through amazing series of bucks, bolting, shying, and other acrobatics. My instructors over the years spent a lot of time shaking their heads because apparently it's not typical to be more likely to end up in the dirt when the horse is doing what it's supposed to. Finally I rode at a barn that did English and western and the owner witnessed me riding a horse that was green and being trained for barrel racing when he bolted, and took me through my first barrel course full-speed. Wasn't his fault, someone left the barrels up and he was just learning what they were for, so he got confused when he saw a jump in front of him and took off to do what he understood. I was up there, whooping and laughing like a mad thing because instead of doing something I mildly hated (jumping in proper form while going a moderate pace), I'd just discovered I LOVED flying around in complicated patterns at full speed!

Of course, he didn't quite stop..... until he'd bucked, hit me in the face with his neck, bloodied my nose, and dumped me on the ground..... apparently he wasn't supposed to be used for lessons, but the instructor didn't have any other free horses, so she just stuck me on him.

Really nice lady ended up buying him, though, right before she did she sought me out to ask me if I thought he was a problem horse, because "Jack's meltdown" had become a big piece of barn gossip, since he wouldn't stop running until the instructor cleared the ring and turned off the lights, and he still broke 2 of her fingers when she was trying to catch him. I told her he was a wonderful horse who was young and a bit timid and got confused and nervous when confronted with something he didn't understand, and that if someone took time with him, he'd be a lot happier. He turned out awesome after this lady had worked with him for 6 months, he did contesting, Western pleasure, and conformation without a problem.
 

5thgradeguppyraiser

Cool! I will have to think of ideas. What grade is this for? Nice to see someone else from Utah on here.
Oh thank you Scoutsfish from being from Utah! I thought BW's and I were the only ones.
I recommend doing water tests on water from different areas of Utah. That's what I'm doing unless I find a better idea.
 

5thgradeguppyraiser

Bwfishtanks! For all Iknow... we could be neighbors or go to same school!! Haha
I just realized that we could have seen each other at the lfs a few times....
 

Scoutsfish

Sounds awesome raven! Luckily, I've never fallen off though I have come close a few times(not because of a spooky/bolting horse but because of my silly habits to be a little extra daring at times-riding backwards, standing on horse then trying to stand while they move, riding bareback/halter at the same time someone falls off and their horse chases mine-she got so excited lol then I jumped off and grabbed the other. my trainer thought I fell but I jumped and happened to hit the fence.. haha-, ride bareback and lean all the way over to help a friend put on spurs etc. For some reason, I've never had a horse able to unseat me even if theyre rearing or bucking or taking off like maniacs.

Also, I don't jump-though I have for fun(can be scary when the horse freaks if you pull back both reins at the same time..there's no slowing down!) I've tried western and showed it a couple times but my figure/form apparently is horrible for it. I think my trainer has me show it at fun shows just to have a good laugh.. It's not too bad, just looks awkward for me.

Lucky for me my parents are pretty nice, and my neighbors with kids/pets love hiring me to feed their animals(one neighbor w/ horses goes out every month for work so her horses are all mine a week+ and I get paid! Can't ride them though..) Alright.. enough about horses haha I could go on for days


5thgradeguppyraiser- It's a possibility.. Who knows.. I'm not going to bother really testing other water sources, don't have time anymore.. lol

well. I have to get back to making a data chart and finishing this thing. I want to get all of the typed stuff done tonight so tomorrow 'all' I have to do is the pictures and board.. oh and my english and seminary hw. 'yaayyyyyy'
 

atc84

lol, you have seminary homework?? I guess in utah they have grades, we just have attendance .
 

ravenlady13

You guys are both becoming priests? What are the odds?
 

Scoutsfish

Well we'd usually do it in class but the semester ends Thursday so Wednesday is our last class and we don't have time in class. Its actually just alittle 'test' -you do it and you get credit- with the scripture masterys.. lol utah is.. well... utah!
 

atc84

You guys are both becoming priests? What are the odds?

wait what?

lol my seminary teacher isn't very organized, so I havn't really learned the SM this year! xD
 

FishTank Maniacz

I haven't either, ha ha
 

Scoutsfish

Haha mine is pretty awesome. He's an artist too so paints awesome things and makes class fun by telling jokes.

Alright.. the camera won't work now.. come onn just a few more pictures! Hopefully its just the battery needing to be charged.. it just won't focus in.:/ anyone here good with nikon D60's?...
 

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