Same Angel .. same problem? Stressed on this one.

Same as last time - updates Added as appropriate - same black angelfish acting a little strange and has new marks.

so first - just did water test 20 mins ago that will matter.

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 55gallon
How long has the tank been running? 7 months or so
Does it have a filter? Yes canister 360 + internal sponge combo with bio media.
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 79
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.) 4 Angelfish 3-4 inch bodies up 6” top to bottom, 7 pearl danios, 3 clown pleco.


Maintenance
How often do you change the water? slowed up a little as I had to for med treatment this last week was 4 days and then 5 days later.
How much of the water do you change? 30-40%
What do you use to treat your water? Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Vacuum where I can - plants. Just did a very big vacuum of this tank and removed a couple old plants.

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes.
What do you use to test the water? API test kit.
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0 - i always see green I hate color tests. If any it’s tiny .25 Im panicked that I killed my cycle with meds. So really feel this is normal 0 reading.
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20-40 feel like this one is solid lowest orange color I’ve seen in a bit for this tank.
pH: 7.6 ish I feel like I read this high. Same today - ran high range test and was tan color and low range was bright teal blue. … 7.5-7.7 ?

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? 2x day
How much do you feed your fish? see symptoms
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Multiple. Pellets, flake,
Do you feed frozen? yes recently bloodworm and brine shrimp
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? Yes worms and dafnia

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 6 months or more now …


ok so what’s up - big black Angel fish has sliver/white lines/marks in several places. On first look two days ago they looked like what I see on this one allot. it grows fast and sometime the pigment is not dark right away and a there is a shiny “mark” that goes away over night or so. I’ll see this every now and again - same thing with tail I thought he had tail rot - was just new growth that filled in with his pattern nicely …

however it also is refusing almost all offered food. It’s eating hunting snails, eggs, eating bits floating plant roots and even off of some plant leaves. He ate tubifex worms cube like a beast. He refuses all flake, or pellet food. which is their normal everyday food. He did chase down a half of algae wafer I tried just cause, but seemed to be loosing interest (I had to walk away so missed if ate it all).

so now he’s not eating “right” and aggression in the tank is real - no serious hiding yet but more chasing and all 4 are now in it not just the biggest two.

This whole tank Was just treated for parasites using API general cure. I ran the full course as directed etc. All fish including a pretty yuck looking danio have been fine.

So thinking it cou”d not be parasite I treated for fin and body cure API product. It was a bit of a panic move and now I’m wondering if I should water change and run carbon ….


the glass is dirty so there is more smudge than spots in first photo. Second the light almost catches so you can see maybe it’s a little shiny?

man I’m stuck on this one think I acted rashly

 

Judging from the last pic, the Angel might have Hexamita. The white markings on top of the Angel look to be consistent with the oozing secretion commonly associated with Hexamita.
A regular weekly 50% water change might help the situation.

 

Thanks for Reply I’m on day three of Meds. I treated for possible Hexamita about a month ago so went bacterial this time lights are just coming on see how it is. Today is water change between med does… I don’t really want to stop halfway through but could try general cure again.. they get 30-40 water changes every 5-6 days …

 

If things don't work out, you might try "Microbe Lift Artemiss". It's a botanical med with anti bacteral properties. Plenty of good on line reviews.

 

Thanks I’ll look into it. Seems same today. Just did the water change PH is up a bit but all other water tests before water change - looked good. I did not test yet after water change going to give it a bit. Still two days of this treatment and I don’t want to stop mod course now so going to finish this course and then give it a few days …probably another post after…

 

Could it be Costia ?

 

one thing, are you saying you have 4 adult angels in the tank? it's fine in a 55 to have 4 however keep an eye on them closely, make sure you don't have a female or more than one coming of age in there, the males will fight, someone will be dominant and there will be a loser that will isolate, and then the male and female pair will get aggressive to everyone else in the tank.
This can also happen with two females they won't be able to fertilize the eggs, but they will go through the motions as a pair and you'd be surprised how hard an adult angel can hit with it's beak when it comes at you or another fish at full steam. they can dent each other up pretty good and cause wounds that look pretty rough, knock off scales and get white and funky afterwards. Again if that's the case, nitrates at 10 or lower will let them heal up quickly without infections.

really watch them for a while, try to determine if you have pairing going on, or there's an outcast situation, when my fish came of age and a pair was starting to form everyone was fighting, and one guy wouldn't eat and sat in the same spot for days afraid to move because he was the weakest, but not necessarily the smallest. I had to give him his own tank or he would have gotten more beat up or staved to death, he didn't feel safe enough to eat anymore.
With 4, there's a good chance one of them is a female. and if so the aggression is normal, and someone being the biggest loser is normal, they will end up refusing to socialize and even eat so the others don't take it as a challenge and attack him. 55g is good for 4 angels but not if they are trying to pair. they are relentless at that stage and it's even worse if the pair lays eggs.

if there's a pair they will stick together mostly, if they are fighting for a female the others will fight until its one that's a clear winner, the female will act normal and stay out of it, but if she refuses the winner, she's keep chasing him off next and fighting with him.
totally normal for angels to shift color at different times. they get pretty pale when sleeping or stressed, or submissive, or sick, pretty bright when flaring fins, being aggressive eating or wide awake.
IF there is a female the sooner you can identify which one it likely is, or remove the pair to their own space, the less damage gets done to everyone else.

i don't see signs of fin nipping in the pictures, but the marks could be from ramming and the mouth from lip locking to wrestle.

I also could be way off base here..... others may not agree, just my observations keeping angels for a long time. everything is fine and dandy until a female reaches maturity then it all goes to heck and someone loses and gets beat up and injured and stops eating and gets really secretive about when it will eat around the other fish because they don't want to challenge for it anymore.

 

one thing, are you saying you have 4 adult angels in the tank? it's fine in a 55 to have 4 however keep an eye on them closely, make sure you don't have a female or more than one coming of age in there, the males will fight, someone will be dominant and there will be a loser that will isolate, and then the male and female pair will get aggressive to everyone else in the tank.
This can also happen with two females they won't be able to fertilize the eggs, but they will go through the motions as a pair and you'd be surprised how hard an adult angel can hit with it's beak when it comes at you or another fish at full steam. they can dent each other up pretty good and cause wounds that look pretty rough, knock off scales and get white and funky afterwards. Again if that's the case, nitrates at 10 or lower will let them heal up quickly without infections.

really watch them for a while, try to determine if you have pairing going on, or there's an outcast situation, when my fish came of age and a pair was starting to form everyone was fighting, and one guy wouldn't eat and sat in the same spot for days afraid to move because he was the weakest, but not necessarily the smallest. I had to give him his own tank or he would have gotten more beat up or staved to death, he didn't feel safe enough to eat anymore.
With 4, there's a good chance one of them is a female. and if so the aggression is normal, and someone being the biggest loser is normal, they will end up refusing to socialize and even eat so the others don't take it as a challenge and attack him. 55g is good for 4 angels but not if they are trying to pair. they are relentless at that stage and it's even worse if the pair lays eggs.

if there's a pair they will stick together mostly, if they are fighting for a female the others will fight until its one that's a clear winner, the female will act normal and stay out of it, but if she refuses the winner, she's keep chasing him off next and fighting with him.
totally normal for angels to shift color at different times. they get pretty pale when sleeping or stressed, or submissive, or sick, pretty bright when flaring fins, being aggressive eating or wide awake.
IF there is a female the sooner you can identify which one it likely is, or remove the pair to their own space, the less damage gets done to everyone else.

i don't see signs of fin nipping in the pictures, but the marks could be from ramming and the mouth from lip locking to wrestle.

I also could be way off base here..... others may not agree, just my observations keeping angels for a long time. everything is fine and dandy until a female reaches maturity then it all goes to heck and someone loses and gets beat up and injured and stops eating and gets really secretive about when it will eat around the other fish because they don't want to challenge for it anymore.

Thanks so. Inch for the input, there is so much changing as they grow. The two largest the black one and a platinum have been “sparing“ fin waving and a little chasing some body blows during feeding.

now things have changed - 2 on one side and 2 on the other. The platinums will tolerate the third (other plat mostly) I’m going to try and get pictures but - I “believe“I have at least two males … one female and third underdeveloped still. much more intense spats still short and no hiding someone just swims back


here they are on separate sides - black one swimming in the up the bubbles one I think to be female facing camera.

one thing, are you saying you have 4 adult angels in the tank? it's fine in a 55 to have 4 however keep an eye on them closely, make sure you don't have a female or more than one coming of age in there, the males will fight, someone will be dominant and there will be a loser that will isolate, and then the male and female pair will get aggressive to everyone else in the tank.
This can also happen with two females they won't be able to fertilize the eggs, but they will go through the motions as a pair and you'd be surprised how hard an adult angel can hit with it's beak when it comes at you or another fish at full steam. they can dent each other up pretty good and cause wounds that look pretty rough, knock off scales and get white and funky afterwards. Again if that's the case, nitrates at 10 or lower will let them heal up quickly without infections.

really watch them for a while, try to determine if you have pairing going on, or there's an outcast situation, when my fish came of age and a pair was starting to form everyone was fighting, and one guy wouldn't eat and sat in the same spot for days afraid to move because he was the weakest, but not necessarily the smallest. I had to give him his own tank or he would have gotten more beat up or staved to death, he didn't feel safe enough to eat anymore.
With 4, there's a good chance one of them is a female. and if so the aggression is normal, and someone being the biggest loser is normal, they will end up refusing to socialize and even eat so the others don't take it as a challenge and attack him. 55g is good for 4 angels but not if they are trying to pair. they are relentless at that stage and it's even worse if the pair lays eggs.

if there's a pair they will stick together mostly, if they are fighting for a female the others will fight until its one that's a clear winner, the female will act normal and stay out of it, but if she refuses the winner, she's keep chasing him off next and fighting with him.
totally normal for angels to shift color at different times. they get pretty pale when sleeping or stressed, or submissive, or sick, pretty bright when flaring fins, being aggressive eating or wide awake.
IF there is a female the sooner you can identify which one it likely is, or remove the pair to their own space, the less damage gets done to everyone else.

i don't see signs of fin nipping in the pictures, but the marks could be from ramming and the mouth from lip locking to wrestle.

I also could be way off base here..... others may not agree, just my observations keeping angels for a long time. everything is fine and dandy until a female reaches maturity then it all goes to heck and someone loses and gets beat up and injured and stops eating and gets really secretive about when it will eat around the other fish because they don't want to challenge for it anymore.

So here is a short video if you don’t mind taking a look.there are four just maturing not full adults 6-8 months old.

think marks could be wounds ?

Could it be Costia ?

I am not sure tank had api general cure dosed about a month ago as suspected hole in head …that’s a parasite med …hope it’s not or I’m in for more medication next week.

 

my opinion, the black one is submissive posture its the weaker male, the white one with it might be an immature female, it seems to defend and distract, not really looking to fight over the female or assert dominance necessarily but run interference for the black one.
the white one on the left is a dominant male, and I think the angel at the top way on the left is the female.
yeah.

there might be two females and two males there. Pretty sure your pair is on the left though, and the aggressive one is the male while the female is back in the top corner chilling. If the white one thats with the black one is a female, it might just be too young still, and not seen as a female yet. your black angel is done fighting over it though, but your winner male isn't going to let either of them near her at this point.

they can hit maturity at around 6-12 months anywhere in there, it is size and development triggered, not by age. the fast growers get there sooner than the slow growers and the female can lay eggs and spawn anytime shes ready to after that, even if her male can't fertilize them yet, even if she's too early and they aren't viable yet, she'll still go through the motions.

watch the female thats way on the left at the top, when she's getting ready to lay eggs she will peck at stuff and clean up the places she's interested in laying eggs at and will just pick one for the spawn site when she's ready to lay them. the male is going to stay on offense to keep the pther angels from getting near her, if she lays eggs, he wants to be the one.

Unfortunately, though, these guys can't all stay together. it would be best to move the white male and the likely female he's defending to their own tank. when they lay eggs those other guys cruising around won't be welcome on their side of the tank either. even in a 72 g tank, when I have a pair that lays eggs half the tank is off limits for any and all trespassers and they are relentless at defending it for a good distance off taking turns.

other option would be to remove the likely female and see if that stops the aggression if you aren't interested in breeding them, but I'm not sure about the 2nd white one, it might also be an immature female that pops up in a another month or so. but if you don't want to breed them, females have to go to keep the peace, too much dominance and aggression with a mature female in the mix.

If you decide to spawn them, any pair I've had has failed to get free swimmers for at least the first 6 attempts, they get a little further each time as they figure it out though and if they screwed it up they will end up eating the eggs to start over in two weeks again.
So if you are going to let them breed, don't get discouraged with the string of failures at the beginning.

Yeah, I think it's injuries honestly. more noticeable because he's black. males can be kept together and they establish a pecking order and maybe fight a bit for who's boss and who eats first, but it's nowhere near this kind of aggression, and this video, it's not anywhere near how bad it gets. this is just "stay out of may space and away from my girl!"

feed way to the left and way to the right for the time being, see if they'll eat like that.

drooping the nitrate to 10 or less for a bit if you can, it should allow them to heal injuries faster, they really don't like the 20ppm or higher in general for their skin. there might be fungal or bacterial infection there seconday to the wounds, but I'm not sold there's anything worse than that going on anymore after seeing the tank behavior and the fish interactions, the battle for the female is over, the black one lost and has given up. if he crosses the halfway point or looks like he might the dominate male will be on him though. that's not gonna change with the female there.

 

so many thanks .. and few more questions if I may.

I think you have i totally- male and female that were to the right. Can see the rounded outline on smaller one. I’ve seen her pecking at a spot on that driftwood up in the corner. ….hmm

boy



girl




the black one is male pretty sure I can tell now, he and the big white have been sparing for months. And the last one has not developed as far as I can tell… so.

my options for tanks etc.
I have a 40 gallon breeder that was just vacated by sick shipment of guppies. It’s empty now except plants, but it would be shorter but more overall space. second choice is I have a cycled 29 gallon that my tetras just vacated also empty. 30” 18” x 12” probably the better option cause taller?

also ..how soon … and they could have it to them selves or I should I get some dither fish?

would the change in dominance effect eating ? Or is that unrelated. He ate veggies today blanched broccoli, but no interest in food really more interest in defending etc. I Do feed on opposite sides but he just moves to middle back and pokes a little at flake today. (I was doing it to give the danios some space)

current meds Question I did about 40% water change today am supposed to do next dose of meds tomorrow. Should I finish it out, API fin and body cure.? API general cure was used about a month ago. I hate dosing the tank like this but if it was parasite advice was don’t move anyone.

Sorry so many questions! I’m happy to let them try and spawn but I’m doubting them … they all have some defect already from pearl in-breading …I did not really know until after.

edit - nitrites to 20 is a real struggle as my tap comes out at about that. I have some many tanks and an apartment that RO just did not seem feasible but may have to set something up in bathroom… it’s pretty low right now for my tanks Which seem to run around 40 most of the time.

many thanks again

 

finish the meds, it's bad practice to not finish the prescribed treatment course, always best to finish it out once it's started.

he's scared to eat except for things he knows the other won't want to eat and beat him up for. the sooner to move the pair or at least the female if you don't want to spawn, it should settle right down again in less than a day and the three left singing kumbaya together, unless the little one is a female also and just a juvenile still... with out her to fight about, they should go right back to brotherly love again.

they all have defects from inbreeding to some extent, you do what you can to get nice examples that are unrelated but you never really know how far removed they are pearlscale and platinum will manifest with both parents being platinums and It depends on if you want to deal with it or not really and see what happens and cull for defects ect., but are you sure these are from the same spawn of angels, at least those two?

if you identified the female, you could stick her separate with any male you want and she should spawn with him, it's just when there's other males the dominate one wins. as they breed and get better at it is when the bond gets really created and they won't fight with each other and be a pair, but now it's just a possession thing and the strongest wins and protecting his trophy.

if you know the black and the platinum aren't related, you could do an outcross with those, not sure what' you'd get though,I think maybe you'd get black hybrid ghost maybe? maybe a smokey hybrid ghost and the black gets watered down.... not sure depends on what the black exactly is. 40 breeder is perfect for a pair, the 29g would work also. but a couple weeks in if you have fry swimming, the parent will need to move from them, or the fry will start harassing the parents and eating their slime and stuff. plus cleaning the fry tank is really hard with the parent int heir with the fry. The pearlscale should go dormant though, and I don't think you'll get platinum at all.
they are a lot of work to raise and get to size though. Just saying. I would probably not do it again, knowing what it all entails now.

 

Hmmmm …

so much to think on.

Yes the platinums are all siblings as far as i know Same online eBay breeder and same spawn, they came from a batch of 6 these 3 made it to the 55 grow out.

the black is a just plain black veil from imperial tropics his fins are huge and wide compared to the platinum. He is about a month older and was dominate until very recently.

during feeding they all ignore the black one but he try to/chases them away from food (like he always has) but now retreats after rejecting it himself. 10 seconds later repeat - I try to put food in front of them as they “run” away and they will grab it but as soon as they group together the black one is back to break it up/check it out ..and then leave again.

I’d love to try and move the female and the black one to avoid the sibling situation …but I’m nervous about moving an already stressed/sick fish. and will the remaining two have it out with no moderation …big male might be stressed his lady is gone? it could also just not work out she could refuse or they could fight…

the 40 gallon just had 18 guppies die off in it from a bad shipping/weak fish .. hard acclimation .. lots of reasons but either way removed last dead a couple days ago. water changed but was going to do again before trying new guppies any recommendations on preparing that tank for angels other Than water change and up the temp?

I am already dealing with rainbow fish fry - now almost 3.5 months so lil fishes and while slow growing all 10 are still going strong. But more Baby fish …maybe It’s good the guppies did not work out .,sad, but for the best. I’d like to try but either way someone has to go to that 40…

appreciate you sharing experience

 

From my experience without a female they briefly fight for who's boss and stronger and they all stay in line afterwards relatively peacefully with an established order again. If she stays in there all you could hope for is that they keep to their sides of the tank and don't cross. If the pair wants the opposite side of the tank, thinks it might be a better breeding spot over there, they will kick out the others, and this can go back and forth from one side to the other.. A pair really can't be kept with others and it just gets worse with eggs involved.

I've not had trouble pairing a female with a different male after her initial pairing if I didn't like the winner. Yeah it could go wrong and them not get along, but most times any male is as good as another early on. It's later when the pair has spawned a handful of times it can cause disruption by removing and changing males. Normally she just assumes the first male died or got eaten and not coming back and takes another male that's available to pair with.
The male left behind assumes the same thing.
They also get over taking the eggs easily. They are extremely aggressive in defense but 20 minutes after removing the eggs they are back to normal and peaceful again.

I've been through a few dozen different scenarios trying to spawn and get to freeswimmer fry and beyond, and tried many different things, even jar rearing eggs. What worked best for me was just letting the pair, alone, figure it all out and fail a half dozen times until they got it right.

The fist batch, she might not be ready or he might not be ready and the eggs are weak or his fertilizing is weak, or he's missing the eggs and a lot or most are white, and they'll scrap it and try again two weeks or so later.
Next they will get more fertilized, but they won't likely realize the white ones are bad and will fungus and turn the others bad they'll likely scrap that and start over. At some point they will figure out to fertilize properly, pick out the white ones early, fan the eggs in turns, and they will be wrigglers. A lot can go wrong there also if they don't move them from the ones that didn't hatch or die, the fungus again. They will learn.

What I did is leave them to figure it out, without needing to defend from other fish (that makes it even harder for them to learn if they are under constant attacks for the spawn).

I kept the spawning tank with just them, kept it super clean with low nitrates, as low as I could get it and then lower, and the temp at 82F which will speed up hatching and freeswimming. Hatching will take like 3 days, from wigglers to them all freeswimming(not just some darting off the pile of a couple freeswimming) another 3 days, then they start getting fed at day 8 or so when their yolk sack is depleted. Then they should be ready for first meal. Bbs, or you can try finely ground flake or first bites if they will take it, but some need to chase to trigger feeding sometimes. After 2 weeks, the parents should be pulled. It's around this time the babies will try to hang on to them and snack on slime coat which would continue until the hit tiny angels (juveniles)

Anyways. If all that works out from egg to taking tiny angelfish form about 30% will die for various reasons. If things go wrong 50% and more will die before you get to freeswimmers and what's left will be too small to really want to spend 4 months feeding and raising for knowing one here or there along the way will also die. If freeswimmers are low, like 30-50, you'll only maybe have a handful left by 4 months if you are lucky.

But the female will lay eggs every 10-14 days when they aren't tending to eggs or fry so there's plenty of opportunity to try again.

Most folks would say don't move your pair, move the other fish or move the fry, so you don't risk your breeding pair. You can always get more fry with the pair but I find moving the pair is easier than moving fry and haven't run into a problem yet but it is a risk and one of the two or both could get stressed and die I suppose.

Hard to say if you are apprehensive about moving fish when they are sick/recovering,, what the best thing to do is, I'm sure you've got your reasons and experience for your position on it. As long as the water conditions are the same between tanks it should go fine.

 

So while I’m waiting to finish resetting up the 40, I’ve also been watching this tank allot.

I think the unknown platinum is another female. It has been hanging in the middle of the tank. The male will charge out and it will submit but Not run away, and he is not pushing it like he does/did with black one (just staying to far side mostly now). i have seen several times the known female charge out at unknown sexed platinum. They will spar with known female being very showy - unknown will back away but again not really run, Is it a she and trying to steal him?

Either way I think my plan is to finish meds tomorrow and after water change day have the 40 ready for The black one and the current unknown. Will leave the paired up ones in 55. Will also have to get the danios out, but was planning on it anyway going to cook them in 80+ degrees. Can I leave the clown plecos? because I think I have to I’m not sure I could get them out!

In the 40 I still need a better heater currently have that silver tube one that has already has air bubbles in it and is hard to get set. I’ve water changed again today and will test tomorrow- everything was good except high PH. going to run my UV on it for 24 hours maybe leave it, not sure. Removed all the large rocks and other hard scape searched for any last guppy remains In both filters, and got the tank put all back together!

if the unknown is female then moving the black one and “her” might encourage a second pair. If it’s male then they either work it out or one goes in with my rainbows.…if the stress of the move 15 feet away is to much well not sure I can do much on that. Whew maybe a breeding journal ?

 

Males won't fight much without a female. If the unknown one is male they'll get along mostly fine with each other, and if it's a female they'll get along fine also. It's just when there's a couple males and a female to fight over there's problems.

Although I have to say, 40 or 55 gallon is a lot of tank for newly freeswimming fry. They will be like half a millimeter to a millimeter in size, and with big water they spend more energy to get the food than they eat. Starting them small, 10 or 20g for first 30 days is better. They can eat and use the energy for growth rather than getting to the food.

Depends on if you will keep the eggs and fry with the parents or jar rear the eggs and then small tank the fry after free swimming.. But that's down the road a few months from my experience. The pair needs to Lear at least how to lay and fertilize a viable batch first.

I found with fungus, I really wanted the eggs to hatch as fast as possible. Theres always going to be a few white eggs, and at cooler Temps it can take 4-5 days to get to wigglers, and at 80-82F it's right around 72 hours. By day 3 going on 4 and the pair hasn't eaten the white eggs, the fungus really spreads and takes over the spawn and killing good eggs.
You can do it at cooler Temps, it just takes longer to hatch and then longer to freeswim, longer to grow.
I didn't personally find benefit from methylene blue at all I still had fungus take over so speed was the answer for me.
As far as jar rearing eggs without the parents involved I had minimal fungus using chlorinated tap water, by the time the eggs hatched the water had aged a couple days and chlorine wasn't an issue anymore. The chlorine didn't have any negative effect on hatch rate at all and it kept the fungus down on the white eggs longer.

I don't know how it would go with plecos. I just keep a pair alone because a breeding pair just doesn't work with other fish involved. I do know that even if I stick a vac or my hand in there to clean the pair will relentlessly attack at full speed in defense. The pleco could probably take a beating but I don't know if he would force his way in and suck up the eggs on them.
Trial an error I suppose, let it run its course and see what happens.

Worst case they lay eggs, the plecos suck it all up and gets a free meal and in 2 weeks they try again. Once they get going its gonna be a spawn roughly twice a month from each pair.
If nothing else it's something to do and a learning experience. Once you have it figured out you can try to get top quality genetic stock from different breeders and breed and raise whatever your interest is, be it double dark veil, clowns, half blacks, super reds, whatever you fancy. Once youre confident you can breed and raise them up, and decide to make the journey to breeding, then the higher cost for the show lines makes sense to buy a couple groups of good juveniles from different breeders and then pair them out.

 

So many thanks for sharing your experience and such details !

I have the 55 at 79 now but the danios go and I can turn it up. I’ll set the 40 at 82 once new heater is here.

As to tank size my only other choices are the 29 gal. one is empty and the other has accidental rainbow fish fry. They should be leaving in a month or two once they start to get some color a LFS wants them. so I have two 29 gallons that could be used for the breeding pairs fry that Would leave 40 and 55 empty .. well the clown plecos they are 3” full grown wood chewers, sure they would eat the eggs if they could, i guess, but they stay well clear of the angels always have. either way those tanks would be ..open? Lol no no no no.
thank so much again. I’m going to start a breeding journal tomorrow with where I’m at so far and what I’m thinking - along with a big thank you out to you! Please follow along and keep the insight coming ! Really hoping this sick fish post has happy ending for the big black he was boss for so long. Mostly cause it was oldest.