Saltwater Newbie Need Help With My Clownfish!

I just started my first saltwater tank. I Googled and researched and watched videos on what I needed to do to get it started and this is what I've done so far and then I'll get to my questions. Any helpful info would greatly be appreciated!


I bought a 10 gal tank and set it up with live rock directly from another friend's tank that was clean and I trusted, live sand (it was had water in the bag),a heater, and a aquaclear filter I believe the 20. I used seachem stability as directed on the bottle, ghost fed the tank and waited a few days to check conditions. Ammonia and nitrite went up and then nitrate and then ammonia and nitrite went down. I'm using store bought saltwater and I bought a refractometer and checked it's right on 1.025. So I waited about another week and checked the water it was still the same so I went and got some fish. I got a firefish and ocellaris clownfish and few snails. I wanted a pair of ocellaris but there was only 1 that I actually liked the look of so I waited. Fish are doing great so I waited another week and went to check on the clownfish again and found one that was a little smaller and got it. Now these are the 3 fish I will get for now as I'm getting a cobalt aquatics c vue 30 I believe. So this 10 gal is basically my qt. Now to my questions.


I did some research on what I need to look for in terms of disease and ich and velvet are the biggest. Also brooklynella. So I keep my eye closely on them. Now my two original fish were doing great. No problems healthy as can be eating everything I give them which is brine shrimp and pellets with garlic already added. But when I added the new clownfish, my original clownfish came down with white spots this morning on it and the new clownfish is just hanging out at the bottom of the tank. It's eating but just goes back to the one place he's kind of wallowed out in the sand. The new clownfish came down with a few white spots too. Now when I bought the new clownfish it didn't have any spots. So I fed them when I seen the spots with the pellets and now all the spots are falling off within hrs? So was this ich? Only the original clownfish has a spot on it now but the new one is still hanging out at the bottom. He gets up and swims and both of them kind of dance and shake a little? So maybe the new clownfish stressed both of the out when I added it? Now I know that if this is ich then it's in the tank and since this is actually going to be the quarantine tank until the new one gets here, I don't want to medicate, as I have live rock in there, just yet. So I need to know what all I can do and if this is really ich or not and if I can now transfer the live rock into the new tank as I had planned? Any advice would help and also if you think what I'm doing wrong or right is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

HI there and welcome to fishlore! Are you able to post a photo of the spots so we can get a better idea of what we’re dealing with?

stella1979 and Culprit, you guys have treated clowns before.. any ideas?

 

Well I took some pictures of them. Both of them are spot free now and this all happened this morning! It's so crazy to me bc I know it wasn't just sand on them. I checked on them at 5:30am found the spots which they didn't have the day before and by about 10 am all spots are gone. Here is the 2 pics of their behavior though. The smaller one is the one who is in the sand. The bigger one is just kind of hovering over the smaller one. They're both eating fine and the smaller one is getting up and swimming quite a bit but then just goes back to this one spot in the sand.

HI there and welcome to fishlore! Are you able to post a photo of the spots so we can get a better idea of what we’re dealing with?

stella1979 and Culprit, you guys have treated clowns before.. any ideas?[/QUOTE

HI there and welcome to fishlore! Are you able to post a photo of the spots so we can get a better idea of what we’re dealing with?

stella1979 and Culprit, you guys have treated clowns before.. any ideas?

Sorry I'm new so I didn't know how to reply directly to you with answer above. But thank you for the welcome and for any help and advice you can give me!

 

HI Welcome to Fishlore and congratulations on your first salty tank. I understand how this feels... stressful, confusing and exciting. So, I'll start with the best bit of advice with marine tanks, and that is, nothing good happens fast. In other words, take your time, try not to worry too much, but keep observing closely as you have been.

From what you've described and the very nature of the hobby, I do believe you're dealing with ich here. You probably don't want to hear this, but you're in for the long haul, as ich is not as easily taken care of in salty tanks as it may be in fresh tanks. In fact, it's a totally different parasite that we're dealing with and saltwater ich could more accurately be called crypt. Anyway, the fish can be treated pretty easily, but it's the rock, sand, and other surfaces in the tank that presents a problem. This is because the life cycle of the parasite means it can take up to 76 days to be eradicated from a system. I wish I had time to go further in depth here, but I think you'll be able to find more info online with some of the facts I've given, so I will now go onto the best method for becoming ich free.

1st - The live rock should be removed from the system and placed somewhere else with saltwater and a pump for flow. A bucket will do just fine for holding the live rock. Sand should also be removed and could go in the bucket too. These porous things can hold onto ich cysts, which would later burst and reinfect your fish. Rocks and sand will also absorb meds, making the treatment less effective AND, because the meds can later leach into water, the rocks and sand would bring meds into the display. No bueno. Without fish to attach to in the bucket, the ich will complete its life cycle and die out in no more than 76 days. Perhaps less... but this all depends on precise parasite species and the environmental, both of which are nearly impossible to know for sure, and this is why it's best to go for the full 76 days. Research tells us that this is the longest amount of time ich has survived without a host.

2nd - The fish. Your best bet with them is to closely and carefully follow a copper treatment. For this, you'll need both the copper med, as well as a copper test. You'll need to check on the exact level, but what I can tell you is that copper is ineffective if below that therapeutic level, and harmful if kept above that level. So, you will need to watch copper levels and maintain them with every water change. Sounds like a real pain, yes? The thing is, this is the most effective and safest treatment for ich. I have been lucky enough to have not dealt with a parasite that needs copper... yet. I do have copper and a copper test though, as well as a few other meds in my war chest, and thus, I am prepared to deal with whatever new fish may bring home with them. I'm sorry I can't be more specific on copper treatment, but there is someone here who can. Oh, Culprit Also, there are some very good copper treatment guides that can be found online.

The fish will be uncomfortable in a bare tank, and we want to increase comfort and immunity as much as possible during treatment, in QT, and just in general. So, you can use PVC pipes and cheesy plastic plants to offer hiding places, and I would highly recommend supplementing their diet with a fishy vitamin like Selcon or VitaChem for saltwater. In my own display tank, fish get fed once a day, with one or two days of fasting per week. However, this is in a reef tank, which I do not want to overfeed. So, I look at a quarantine period, medicated or not, as a chance to fatten them up. Well fed fish will have the strongest immune system and a strong fish can more easily withstand disease and treatments. When I have fish in qt, they eat twice a day, and each time, they get as much as they'll eat.

From here on out, you will be doing yourself a favor if you keep the qt tank free of anything porous.

Your fish appear strong and I do believe they can survive and thrive with proper treatment. With improper treatment, you may see those symptoms disappear. However, ich has a nasty habit of hiding until an opportunity presents itself. So, without completing treatment, you are taking the risk of the parasite reappearing any time the tank/fish go through a stressor.

Good luck!! Hope this helps, and please, just let us know if you have more questions.

 

There are a few things here.

1) Are you using tap or RODI water?

2) If you have sand and live rock and need to treat with copper (considered by many to be the most effective treatment for ich) you have a problem as the copper will create long term problems for them. QT tanks are best with barebottom (no sand) and no live rock and some established filter media (ineffective for long term care for multiple fish, but it works well for 1 or 2 fish short term for the QT process). As mentioned add some PVC pipe to help them feel like they have some shelter.

3) Don't bother setting up the new tank yet as mentioned you have a bare minimum of 76 days (and I personally recommend 12 weeks or more just for good measure) ahead of you.

 

HI Welcome to Fishlore and congratulations on your first salty tank. I understand how this feels... stressful, confusing and exciting. So, I'll start with the best bit of advice with marine tanks, and that is, nothing good happens fast. In other words, take your time, try not to worry too much, but keep observing closely as you have been.

From what you've described and the very nature of the hobby, I do believe you're dealing with ich here. You probably don't want to hear this, but you're in for the long haul, as ich is not as easily taken care of in salty tanks as it may be in fresh tanks. In fact, it's a totally different parasite that we're dealing with and saltwater ich could more accurately be called crypt. Anyway, the fish can be treated pretty easily, but it's the rock, sand, and other surfaces in the tank that presents a problem. This is because the life cycle of the parasite means it can take up to 76 days to be eradicated from a system. I wish I had time to go further in depth here, but I think you'll be able to find more info online with some of the facts I've given, so I will now go onto the best method for becoming ich free.

1st - The live rock should be removed from the system and placed somewhere else with saltwater and a pump for flow. A bucket will do just fine for holding the live rock. Sand should also be removed and could go in the bucket too. These porous things can hold onto ich cysts, which would later burst and reinfect your fish. Rocks and sand will also absorb meds, making the treatment less effective AND, because the meds can later leach into water, the rocks and sand would bring meds into the display. No bueno. Without fish to attach to in the bucket, the ich will complete its life cycle and die out in no more than 76 days. Perhaps less... but this all depends on precise parasite species and the environmental, both of which are nearly impossible to know for sure, and this is why it's best to go for the full 76 days. Research tells us that this is the longest amount of time ich has survived without a host.

2nd - The fish. Your best bet with them is to closely and carefully follow a copper treatment. For this, you'll need both the copper med, as well as a copper test. You'll need to check on the exact level, but what I can tell you is that copper is ineffective if below that therapeutic level, and harmful if kept above that level. So, you will need to watch copper levels and maintain them with every water change. Sounds like a real pain, yes? The thing is, this is the most effective and safest treatment for ich. I have been lucky enough to have not dealt with a parasite that needs copper... yet. I do have copper and a copper test though, as well as a few other meds in my war chest, and thus, I am prepared to deal with whatever new fish may bring home with them. I'm sorry I can't be more specific on copper treatment, but there is someone here who can. Oh, Culprit Also, there are some very good copper treatment guides that can be found online.

The fish will be uncomfortable in a bare tank, and we want to increase comfort and immunity as much as possible during treatment, in QT, and just in general. So, you can use PVC pipes and cheesy plastic plants to offer hiding places, and I would highly recommend supplementing their diet with a fishy vitamin like Selcon or VitaChem for saltwater. In my own display tank, fish get fed once a day, with one or two days of fasting per week. However, this is in a reef tank, which I do not want to overfeed. So, I look at a quarantine period, medicated or not, as a chance to fatten them up. Well fed fish will have the strongest immune system and a strong fish can more easily withstand disease and treatments. When I have fish in qt, they eat twice a day, and each time, they get as much as they'll eat.

From here on out, you will be doing yourself a favor if you keep the qt tank free of anything porous.

Your fish appear strong and I do believe they can survive and thrive with proper treatment. With improper treatment, you may see those symptoms disappear. However, ich has a nasty habit of hiding until an opportunity presents itself. So, without completing treatment, you are taking the risk of the parasite reappearing any time the tank/fish go through a stressor.

Good luck!! Hope this helps, and please, just let us know if you have more questions.

Thank you so much for all the info. I was afraid that's what it was and I would have to do the copper treatment. So I went down to my lfs and told the girl I always work with that I needed seachem treatment and copper test and also told her what was going on. She told me that ich downy just go away within a few hrs completely like it did this morning on my 2 clowns. So now I'm even more confused. I would to take a picture and show you the spots but neither have anything on them whatsoever now. I'm starting to think I am crazy lol. But my questions is could ich appear and then disappear so quickly like that?

There are a few things here.

1) Are you using tap or RODI water?

2) If you have sand and live rock and need to treat with copper (considered by many to be the most effective treatment for ich) you have a problem as the copper will create long term problems for them. QT tanks are best with barebottom (no sand) and no live rock and some established filter media (ineffective for long term care for multiple fish, but it works well for 1 or 2 fish short term for the QT process). As mentioned add some PVC pipe to help them feel like they have some shelter.

3) Don't bother setting up the new tank yet as mentioned you have a bare minimum of 76 days (and I personally recommend 12 weeks or more just for good measure) ahead of you.

Right now I'm using petsmart brand of saltwater. It's premade and a little expensive but I thought for right now it would work until the new tank comes in and then I would invest in a rodI system and mix my own. I do water changes every week since I've had the fish. Is that enough changes since I've seen no ammonia spike since putting them in? I do top off with distilled water. I just draw a line on the tank and fill whatever evaps back to the line. I didn't know about bare bottom qt until after I set up my little tank. I was hoping nothing would break out while the fish were in there until new tank came and I got it running and cycled. Now I plan on getting the new tank set up and running while my fish are in qt and get it cycled. And as I was told above now the live rock is contaminated so I'm going to get a bucket with a air pump and just keep it in there for time recommended until it's safe to put into new dt. I'm going to just scrap the sand I have now and get the qt bare minimum with a few pipes like suggested. Now will taking all that out crash my cycle I've already got completed in the tank they're in now?

 

ich does not just go away. Healthier specimens can fight it off for the time being but it will keep coming back periodically and when the fish gets sick it is more likely to cause death. The point is that once it is there it is always there until the aforementioned treatment takes place. Ich can survive as long as fish are present in the environment

Right now I'm using petsmart brand of saltwater. It's premade and a little expensive but I thought for right now it would work until the new tank comes in and then I would invest in a rodI system and mix my own. I do water changes every week since I've had the fish. Is that enough changes since I've seen no ammonia spike since putting them in? I do top off with distilled water. I just draw a line on the tank and fill whatever evaps back to the line. I didn't know about bare bottom qt until after I set up my little tank. I was hoping nothing would break out while the fish were in there until new tank came and I got it running and cycled. Now I plan on getting the new tank set up and running while my fish are in qt and get it cycled. And as I was told above now the live rock is contaminated so I'm going to get a bucket with a air pump and just keep it in there for time recommended until it's safe to put into new dt. I'm going to just scrap the sand I have now and get the qt bare minimum with a few pipes like suggested. Now will taking all that out crash my cycle I've already got completed in the tank they're in now?

The rock isn't contaminated per se. ich needs fish to survive long term, so the rock will be fine provided it isn't around fish for 3 months or so. The cycle will need to be redone in the new tank once the LR dries out even partially. The cycle is caused by the die off of bacteria and other life on the live rock and getting back up to speed so to speak. What you could do is go ahead and setup the new tank with the sand and transfer the rock into the tank WITH THE UNDERSTANDING that no fish will enter it for a MINIMUM of 3 months. This will preserve the cycle for the rock though as long as it's going from tank to tank. You could put inverts there in the meantime to give it some life (they are not affected by ich and ich cannot survive for 3 months or more without fish). The only issue with inverts and rocks is being a temporary carrier for ich eggs, but Ich cannot survive for months on end without fish.

 

ich does not just go away. Healthier specimens can fight it off for the time being but it will keep coming back periodically and when the fish gets sick it is more likely to cause death. The point is that once it is there it is always there until the aforementioned treatment takes place. Ich can survive as long as fish are present in the environment

Gotcha! Ok so idk if you read my response to the poster above, I noticed these spots at around 5:30 this morning but by 10 there was nothing there anymore. Is that possible with ich? I gave no meds just fed them. Just trying to make sure I treat them for the right thing is all. Like I told the previous poster, I wish I would've taken a pic of them this morning when I saw the spots on them but I didn't and when I went back to check on them later, all spots disappeared and this was in just 3.5 hours. But I do have the meds now and I'm getting ready to do this thing lol. I've got their little tank set up by my bed to check on them since I have kids that are depending me getting these little guys well right now plus if one of them takes a turn I don't want my kids to find the little guys floating. Here's the little clowns now.

 

So it went from many spots to completely clean in a few hours? About how big were the spots (ie just little dots like specs of sand or bigger). If they were just little dots it's entirely possible we missed the mark completely on this one. What we could be seeing is a problem that is common among wrasse owners in that your clownfish merely had sand stuck to them and fell off. Sometimes they will set a spot in the sand bed and dig a little.
I'm not saying ich can't fall off or disappear but to go from multiple spots to none in a few hours sounds more like sand stuck to the slime coat. My wrasses have nearly given me heart attacks on many occasion due to this only to have the spots vanish over a few hours as they swim around in the current. That's what I get for having fish that bury in the sand. If indeed that's all it is my appologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

 

I'd be pretty sure that like Jester said we've missed the mark. I've had completely clean, prophylactically treated fish show up with some white dots, and panic, but when I check later their gone. Air droplets, sand, anything can look a lot like ich. Especially if its newly setup a lot of time there are bubbles all over. If you have a firefish, it might have took a dive in the sand finding a burrow and splasshed some sand on the clowns, causing sand to get stuck in their slime coat.

I would keep observing VERY closely, as often as you can. You want to make sure they're not flashing, breathing heavy, ect

 

It is definitely ich unfortunately. Even my firefish has spots on it this morning. I'm starting treatment asap. I'm also getting another 10 gal tank and a small filter to transfer them into that is completely clean and sand free. My fish are still active and swimming around and eating so I'm hoping this will go well as I've never done it before but I guess I will need to learn as this probably won't be the last time I do this. Thank you all for the info and advice. I really appreciate it!

 

Sorry about ich .
Before you waste time and money know it is completely different then in fresh water .
In freshwater there are many ways to cure ich and it is not as quick of a killer as in marine .
There are only 3 ways to kill marine ich .
Some have suggested the life cycle of marine ich to be MUCH longer then freshwater with a possible 1 year plus life cycle.
Ich has no eyes so the lights out suggestions [all wrong] IMO are useless and as victI'm of marine ich I believe even detrimental.
Marine ich is a little smarter then freshwater ich in that when it falls off it often sets up its temporary home where your fish sleep so it can reinfest over night.
So although no eyes I believe leaving the lights on may actually help. I know fish ALWAYS look worse in am after lights out …
So now on to the three ways to kill ich .It is important for you to understand there are NO OTHER PROVEN OPTIONS ..NONE !
1. Copper .Used in a bare bottom tank with PVC to help the fish feel comfortable [did I mention how much more difficult QTing marine is ?] .They will likely never look comfortable but ?
2.Hyposalinity
3. Transfer method.
Anything else is delaying the lengthy battle you have ahead of you .
Here is the one link that I completely agree with .There are many others and like bad advice if you read them you get what you get ? I have kept marine tanks since the 1980's do very little to enjoy them and have enjoyed fish that have lived well over 5-8 years at a clip. Ich has also killed $750 worth of my fish in under 2 weeks and caused me to run my 120 gallon fallow [with only marine betta and green mandarin who are possibly ich immune naturally] for over 3 months !
Marine Ich (cryptocaryon irritans) - the real scoop -
There are only 3 ways to kill it .If you use copper then you NEED a copper test so you know your levels..
Good luck and ask away if you don't understand the link.

 

Forgot about hyposalinity and ttm. If I remember though the other two aren't quite as effective as copper.

 

Hyposalinity is a bit hard to do, when compared to copper. Keep it a bit too low, and you're risking losing your fish - a bit too high, and the ich doesn't die. Not worth it, IMO - although it does work. Never done the TTM.

Cupramine is easy to use, and is safe when used correctly.

 

Tank Transfer Method is 100% effective against ich if done correctly.

The other thing to point out is that it is possible to practice ich management and not lose fish. You need to keep the fish healthy enough to fight off the ich though.

And as for going fallow, I think that’s requires no fish in the tank. If you leave fish in there, then as soon as you start adding fish back, you’ll see the ich reappear. It needs to be a fishless environment for 76 days.

 

The issue is with ich management is that any one stressor can cause the ich to come back in full force. What if your power goes out? Your heater/AC isn't going to work. Temp is going to swing, fish are going to stress, and the ich will find a way back. At that point, there's not a ton you can do. It just usually isn't worth it to not cure ich.

 

The issue is with ich management is that any one stressor can cause the ich to come back in full force. What if your power goes out? Your heater/AC isn't going to work. Temp is going to swing, fish are going to stress, and the ich will find a way back. At that point, there's not a ton you can do. It just usually isn't worth it to not cure ich.

I totally agree... on 99% of smaller and most bigger tanks. However, if you have a large, healthy, diverse tank that gets fed very well and is natural, you can practic ich management like Paul B.

 

Tank Transfer Method is 100% effective against ich if done correctly.

The other thing to point out is that it is possible to practice ich management and not lose fish. You need to keep the fish healthy enough to fight off the ich though.

And as for going fallow, I think that’s requires no fish in the tank. If you leave fish in there, then as soon as you start adding fish back, you’ll see the ich reappear. It needs to be a fishless environment for 76 days.

Thanks, after taking a look it appears that TTM is about on par with copper in it's effectiveness. Hypo however is a mixed bag. It will kill certain varieties of ich, but in a study they found certain variants of ich that could have the eggs survive all the way down to 1.005 (which is deadly to fish) and it's basically useless against velvet or other varieties.

 

I totally agree... on 99% of smaller and most bigger tanks. However, if you have a large, healthy, diverse tank that gets fed very well and is natural, you can practic ich management like Paul B.

If I am being honest I have an ich management tank. In addition to having a larger tank, I also think it helps to keep it more sparsely stocked and you definitely don't want expensive fish in there. I do keep my fish well fed and they do seem to be doing fairly well and have been for over a year. I have a 90 gallon tank with a whopping 5 fish (most would consider that pretty lightly stocked for a tank of this size). For me in my case I have several problems with a QT Tank:

1) I simply have no where to put it
2) With my Foxface, Wrasses and Coral Beauty, I would not feel comfortable keeping them in anything less than a 40 breeder for the QT phase, which adds to the cost and space required for QT
3) Both of my Wrasses are Sand Burying wrasses so I would need to hope they would be okay with a couple of containers of sand or adapt to hiding in PVC pipe
4) Any tank transfer can put significant stress on a fish and people do lose fish in QT despite their best efforts, and I do believe in some cases if the fish appears to be doing well and is eating and active for an extended period of time that it might actually make things worse to do a drastic change on them like that.

For the record, I do still feel it's best practice to QT and I would never tell someone not to do it. I think that ich management type cases only work for those with larger and more sparsely stocked tanks (fewer fish means fewer sources for the parasties to infect and it limits the damage if something goes really wrong). There are very few cases where I would recommend ich management over good QT or treatment methods. Ich Management just seems to work for me.

 

Goodness there are so many different ways to treat this that my head's swimming. I appreciate each and everyone that took the time out of their day to answer me and give me very helpful advice and recommendations! Upon starting the treatment this morning I realized that what my lfs sold me is not copper treatment some herbal stuff I'm not going to waste my time and money on, and they don't carry copper or tests so I have to order from Amazon and it won't arrive until Monday. But I was able to get another 10 gal tank and some other supplies to try the tank transfer method until I get the copper treatment in to at least keep them alive. All 3 fishes are doing good and eating well. Most of their spots are gone again after just feeding them garlic and vitamins but I know this won't be for long. So hopefully this ttm will do the trick. And if not then I'll have copper to treat it. As for my dt I just got it in and will be starting over completely in there with new rock and sand. I'll be keeping my original rock in a separate bucket in water but won't be adding it to my dt until after a few months. Thank you all again. I do have a good question with the ttm. How do you sanitize tank and equipment between transfers? Bleach and left to dry? I'm starting with new stuff today heater filter and tank but if I'm going to try the ttm, I want to do it right and make sure everything it ich free for the next transfer

 

Well sadly my firefish died. But I don't think it was bc of the ich. My heater lafunctioned and when I found him my thermometer was ready 83-84. My 2 clownfish are still doing well. No spots on them. I think I'll be treating them with general cure after the ttm is complete as they both have white stringy poo

 

Sorry to hear about your fish. Glad to hear the clownfish are still doing well.

 

Sorry to hear about your fish. Glad to hear the clownfish are still doing well.

Thank you. My kids named him alphalpha. So rip alphalpha.