Rummynose blisters - bacterial sepsis ?

Blacksheep1

I got two batches of rummynoses from two different places, both quarantined with no issues . A couple of days ago one has started with what looks like blisters , some are small spots some longer almost like a varicose vein but clear. no other symptoms until today it looks like it freezes and floats then carries on normal. It’s still schooling with the others but with this New symptom I’ll quarantine it but any ideas on what to treat it with ?

tank mates - 25 tetras , 1 pleco, 6 corys, 1 kribensis, 1 nerite snail.
180L
Ph 6.8
Ammonia -0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate-20
Kh-2
Gh-8
25c
Tsd -180
I rotate food between tetra pro colour , tetra micro sticks , frozen foods are - mysis +vitamins, cyclops, tubifex worms + vitamins , Artemia with garlic , white mosquito larvae and the occasional blood worm. I feed veggies too but they aren’t interested
I change 50-80% a week or two 50% as I’m a little over stocked

459C8252-DEB4-4073-834F-476B0423071C.jpeg
83783CFA-C5DA-44B9-AAF9-43093DD2A367.jpeg
DD38F6E4-6066-40D2-8642-C3705A4779CC.png
9CC45D34-D6F8-4733-AD82-8B6154D600C6.pngCould this be bacterial sepsis ? I can’t seem to find anything that looks remotely similar to this. Any ideas on what to treat this with or if it’s worth treating at all ?
 

DoubleDutch

Think we're talking about Dermosporidium.
 

Blacksheep1

Oh wow thankyou ! I think you’ve nailed it after a quick search . Should I euthanise or treat do you think ?
 

DoubleDutch

Oh wow thankyou ! I think you’ve nailed it after a quick search . Should I euthanise or treat do you think ?
It is mainly estethic and not a "real" disease and therefor not treatable.
I recall some "treatments" done here but others should jump in here.
As far as I know you don't have to euthanise and it could go on its own.
If fish starts to suffer / can't live a normal life I'd euthanise though..
 

Blacksheep1

I’ve been reading since you gave me the name and I’ve read that eSHa 2000 had some “success” but I’ve read it can also regress on its own and come back too. Thankyou for the diagnosis , it’s a huge help. It’s still eating well and swimming strong apart from its split second freezes so I’ll just watch it closely. Poor little guy :(
 

DoubleDutch

Yeah I have heared Esha 2000 as well, but I can hardly believe cause we here think this is a fairy tail brand that tells to treat allmoat anything.
 

Blacksheep1

I do have it and may try it just to see if it helps in any way from a research standpoint but in low kh you have to double the dose , I will not treat the full tank though.
my other thought is do I waste time and stress an already sick fish for something that’s not supposedly treatable or contagious. Seems like a waste of time and pointless …
Thankyou for all your replies. It would of taken me a long time to figure this one out.
 

Redshark1

DoubleDutch I'm sure you will agree that the ingredients are what is important not the brand (which is really about marketing).

ESHA 2000 Active ingredients: 1 ml of solution contains: ethacridine lactate 6.3 mg, copper 2+ 3.2 mg, methyl orange 0.26 mg, proflavine 1 mg.

Dermosporidium (or "Worm In A Bubble") is a bubble-like protruberance on the skin of Cardinal Tetras and other species with what looks like a white worm inside but isn’t. It is actually another life form related to fungi. It usually disappears on its own given time and no action or medications are needed. I have experienced this parasite on my own Cardinal Tetras and no harm was done.

However, I'm not sure about this in your case because none of my fish had any buoyancy issues or any other issues at all.
 

Blacksheep1

It’s very strange because other than the pic above I’ve only seen it do that one other time. It’s more like it freezes , then kinda floats for a second or two then continues as normal. It’s still eating, it was one of the first to get some artemia last night , it’s still shoaling and seems just fine.

I’m just gonna leave it alone , do an extra water change a week and keep watch. I appreciate the info on your experience with this, it gives me hope it’ll be okay !
 

DoubleDutch

DoubleDutch I'm sure you will agree that the ingredients are what is important not the brand (which is really about marketing).

ESHA 2000 Active ingredients: 1 ml of solution contains: ethacridine lactate 6.3 mg, copper 2+ 3.2 mg, methyl orange 0.26 mg, proflavine 1 mg.

Dermosporidium (or "Worm In A Bubble") is a bubble-like protruberance on the skin of Cardinal Tetras and other species with what looks like a white worm inside but isn’t. It is actually another life form related to fungi. It usually disappears on its own given time and no action or medications are needed. I have experienced this parasite on my own Cardinal Tetras and no harm was done.

However, I'm not sure about this in your case because none of my fish had any buoyancy issues or any other issues at all.
I agree but Esha 2000 is quite notorious to tell it treats anything. It is an old med from the sixtees, seventees that never has been changed and after being overused in our country has pointed its sales to other countries telling the same thing. That's what I meand to say. It was the first "We don't know what we're facing so lets throw in something-med".
 

MacZ

Yeah, it's definitely a species of Dermocystidium (Dermosporidium is an invalid synonym).

I just recently got asked if I want to take part in a publication on this stuff.

What I can say:
- It won't kill a fish directly. All cases with losses were either combined infections, the bubbles encased mouth and/or gills (causing suffocation) or were really massive (like in this case)
- There's no known treatment.
- At one point the bubble pops and the spores (that's what the white wormlike things are) are released in the water infecting other fish.

I would isolate this one with high volume waterchanges until the spores have been released.

There are positive reports for bath treatments with a Ginger-Ethanol mixture usually used in South East Asia against flukes. Seems 40% are flushed off the fish with it. I'm postponing translating that treatment's recipe over and over again, maybe I'll finally do this soon.

I agree but Esha 2000 is quite notorious to tell it treats anything. It is an old med from the sixtees, seventees that never has been changed and after being overused in our country has pointed its sales to other countries telling the same thing. That's what I meand to say. It was the first "We don't know what we're facing so lets throw in something-med".
Esha 2000 is indeed notorious. In Germany it's known as a catfish killer and a strong disinfectant.
 

Blacksheep1

Thankyou for the reply. So it is contagious … Ok I’ll catch the little fella now .
Is the ginger- ethanol necessary or worth while trying in your opinion ?
Is this something that I’ve caused or would it of come in already infected ?
 

MacZ

Is the ginger- ethanol necessary or worth while trying in your opinion ?
You can try it if you are impatient, but with less than 50% success I think it is unnecessary stress for the fish.

Is this something that I’ve caused or would it of come in already infected ?
99% of cases are on wild caught fish. You have likely nothing to do with this.

General advice: For every fish encountered with the stuff it is important to keep water quality pristine, otherwise the parasitosis might become malignant. But that's a rare occasion. Most often they are just opening gateways for secondary infections that are actually dangerous.
 

Blacksheep1

Spare heaters broke so a quick visit to the lfs then I’ll get it set up. It’ll be going in a 35l bucket with a lid and cycled filter media. Would salt be a good idea or just leave it be to run it’s course ?
 

MacZ

Would salt be a good idea or just leave it be to run it’s course ?
Leave the salt. I would have mentioned it if it had any beneficial effects in this case. Also softwater fish should not be treated with salt in general.
 

A201

Guys, for what it's worth, looks like the Rummynose is suffering from "Epistylis" to me.
 

DoubleDutch

Yeah, it's definitely a species of Dermocystidium (Dermosporidium is an invalid synonym).

I just recently got asked if I want to take part in a publication on this stuff.

What I can say:
- It won't kill a fish directly. All cases with losses were either combined infections, the bubbles encased mouth and/or gills (causing suffocation) or were really massive (like in this case)
- There's no known treatment.
- At one point the bubble pops and the spores (that's what the white wormlike things are) are released in the water infecting other fish.

I would isolate this one with high volume waterchanges until the spores have been released.

There are positive reports for bath treatments with a Ginger-Ethanol mixture usually used in South East Asia against flukes. Seems 40% are flushed off the fish with it. I'm postponing translating that treatment's recipe over and over again, maybe I'll finally do this soon.


Esha 2000 is indeed notorious. In Germany it's known as a catfish killer and a strong disinfectant.
Twice as old as you mate, so please allow me to use invalid synonyms hahahaha. Thanks for correcting me.
 

Blacksheep1

Well poorly or not that was hard to catch. I saw another with a small mark so that’s come out too. Let’s see how they go , would 50% wc a day be the best idea or more?
 

A201

I think that changing out 50% of the water daily will only accomplish exhausting you & overly stressing out the fish.
One weekly 50% WC, or two 25% weekly WC's should be fine.
 

Blacksheep1

Ok Thankyou.

thanks to all of you for your help. I’ll update either way on how they do :)
 

Redshark1

I agree but Esha 2000 is quite notorious to tell it treats anything. It is an old med from the sixtees, seventees that never has been changed and after being overused in our country has pointed its sales to other countries telling the same thing. That's what I meand to say. It was the first "We don't know what we're facing so lets throw in something-med".
This is interesting for me because on my Clown Loach Fanatics forum Esha products are constantly recommended for Clown Loaches and often quite insistently by numerous people as though it should be the only action considered. Other suggestions of action, medication or otherwise, are swamped and lost in the hurricane of Esha fans.

I have tried to explain that the ingredients are what counts and we have to medicate with the correct ingredient, whoever markets it. Also the Esha products Esha Exit and Esha 2000 are a cocktail of many medications and I have found that people do not know what they are dosing.

To my mind Esha Exit is expensive for the volume of water it treats and may have unnecessary chemicals added. Basically its Acridine, Malachite Green, Meth.Violet, Meth. Blue.

Blacksheep1 Here's your erratic swimming mentioned in the article.
How do I treat Dermocystidium
 

Blacksheep1

eSHa 2000 states it treats neon tetra disease along with fungus, fin rot, bacteria , gill problems ulcers and dropsy … at the risk of sounding stupid I’ll ask anyway-
am I wrong in thinking dropsy isn’t actually treatable as it’s a secondary symptom.

I’ve used this medicine before and it did nothing in my very humble opinion.
 

Redshark1

I believe dropsy is a disorder with many causes and may be the result of the kidneys and gills failing to pump out water entering the fish. But it may be treatable. At my school the Platies were displaying dropsy symptoms and a few died, but when I took them home they recovered in my comparably calm house. I drew the conclusion that the constant harassment of the fish by children brought on the condition via stress.

Zebra Danios were not so afflicted and I would recommend them for a school aquarium, with every effort made to teach children to behave correctly. There will always be a child that taps on the glass no matter what.
 

Blacksheep1

Thankyou. They were my thoughts just a lot more eloquently worded :)

Ive added a marimo ball and a couple of rocks as they were hiding under the tiny filter . No air stone but it’ll do for tonight. Since adding the decor , although minimal , they seem a bit happier and are moving around more. I’ll keep an eye on the parameters as the media although cycled for over 2 months is small and may not be enough to kick start the nitrification sufficiently. Fingers crossed these guys make it.

what does everyone use to disinfect equipment ? I don’t have peroxide, should I just go get some ?
 

MacZ

what does everyone use to disinfect equipment ?
Hot water, sometimes saltwater, sometimes vinegar essence. Best is still just letting stuff dry completely, rinsing with hot (60-70°C) water before and after. That's pretty much it. I rarely have to disinfect anything.
 

Blacksheep1

Well that’s more than do-able. Thanks again :)
Sorry for another question but I’ve been reading up on Dermosporidium / Dermocystidium / Epistylis… if I’ve got this right affects tetras mostly in this specific strain ( cardinals I’ve read quite a bit on but I don’t have ) but can affect other fish if weakened.
I have 3 types of tetras - rummynose, black widow & black neon.
3 black neons I’ve had for 2 ish years and upped the school to 7 , no losses or sign of infection.
the black widows I had 3 of for well over 2 years and inherited 5more , no losses or sign of infection.
rummynoses from 2 diff stores- 6&8- losses in the beginning in quarantine for both batches but seemed healthy since until this -

will this spread to my other tetras ? Can the krib be affected ? Can it affect scaleless fish like the corys and pleco, I can’t seem to find evidence on this. I’ve read once they ‘burst’ if they can’t find a host they die but who are the potential hosts. I’d expect the black tetras to be next in line, is that a fair assumption ?
 

Redshark1

In my case, no other fish were infected. It faded away on its own in a couple of months.

Fish are notoriously subject to stress, weakened immune systems, disease and death when transported and subjected to environmental changes.
 

Blacksheep1

Rummynoses seem a bit more sensitive than others, it’s reported a normal occurrence to lose a couple of a new batch.

I’m hoping I share your experience ! They’ve eaten today and although shy they seem ok so far.
 

Cherryshrimp420

The problem is not the disease, it's your water parameters. Treating the disease while not addressing the water will not cure anything. The fish will just get some other infection and get sick again.

You said the heater broke? What's the water temperature now? Rummynose especially prefers very high temperatures, you will likely have better success at 28C or higher. What was your water change schedule? How much have you been feeding?
 

Blacksheep1

The new heater was for the quarantine tank not the main tank. See original post for foods and wc schedule .
 

Cherryshrimp420

Yes I see the list of foods, but how much were you adding? Its the amount that matters and most people tend to add more than their tank can handle

Anyways like I said, 25C is on the lower end for rummynose they prefer 28C or higher
 

DoubleDutch

The problem is not the disease, it's your water parameters. Treating the disease while not addressing the water will not cure anything. The fish will just get some other infection and get sick again.

You said the heater broke? What's the water temperature now? Rummynose especially prefers very high temperatures, you will likely have better success at 28C or higher. What was your water change schedule? How much have you been feeding?
What exactly is wrong with the waterparameters ?
 

MacZ

What exactly is wrong with the waterparameters ?
I'm asking the same question. Besides GH I see no problem. Definitely enough waterchanges.
 

Cherryshrimp420

What exactly is wrong with the waterparameters ?

When growth like Dermocystidium shows up it's usually a water quality issue. This could be anything, like too much organic matter, temperature issues etc not just the usual ammonia byproducts. Overfeeding is the most common culprit so I always ask how much people have been feeding. But of course, it's not the only cause.

Keeping the water clean should be the first step...and then look at medication. Adding medication when the water is not clean is not going to solve the issue
 

MacZ

Yeah... I think in this case the factor water quality can be ruled out, looks good so far. Only thing I can agree on would maybe temp (too low) and GH (a bit high), otherwise I doubt it.

Also we all already advised against medication because there is none against Dermocystidum.
 

DoubleDutch

When growth like Dermocystidium shows up it's usually a water quality issue. This could be anything, like too much organic matter, temperature issues etc not just the usual ammonia byproducts. Overfeeding is the most common culprit so I always ask how much people have been feeding. But of course, it's not the only cause.

Keeping the water clean should be the first step...and then look at medication. Adding medication when the water is not clean is not going to solve the issue
Could you please link me to this info.
Very interesting.
As said I don't see big problems in the waterparameters given.
 

Cherryshrimp420

Could you please link me to this info.
Very interesting.
As said I don't see big problems in the waterparameters given.

Every time fish poops, it releases nitrogen and carbon. Ammonia is the nitrogen part that we commonly test for because it's cheap and easy. Carbon is in the form of dissolved organic carbon (DOC) which is not easy to test for so we often ignore it, but it still impacts the aquarium because it's food for bacteria and other microorganisms.

There are studies that show DOC inhibits growth and lakes with high DOC tend to have smaller populations of fish:

Antagonistic effects of temperature and dissolved organic carbon on fish growth in California mountain lakes - Oecologia

Canadian Science Publishing

This study looks at how quickly fish poop and food leech DOC and ammonia into the water:
Addition of dissolved nitrogen and dissolved organic carbon from wild fish faeces and food around Mediterranean fish farms: Implications for waste-dispersal models

Fish poop leeches quite a bit into the water column, and carnivorous fish leeched faster than omnivores and herbivores. The authors also discussed that it may lead to eutrophication of the water and effect the microbial structure....which to me, it seems like bacterial blooms and weird growths on fish in our aquariums is one of the results of that.
 

DoubleDutch

Every time fish poops, it releases nitrogen and carbon. Ammonia is the nitrogen part that we commonly test for because it's cheap and easy. Carbon is in the form of dissolved organic carbon (DOC) which is not easy to test for so we often ignore it, but it still impacts the aquarium because it's food for bacteria and other microorganisms.

There are studies that show DOC inhibits growth and lakes with high DOC tend to have smaller populations of fish:

Antagonistic effects of temperature and dissolved organic carbon on fish growth in California mountain lakes - Oecologia

Canadian Science Publishing

This study looks at how quickly fish poop and food leech DOC and ammonia into the water:
Addition of dissolved nitrogen and dissolved organic carbon from wild fish faeces and food around Mediterranean fish farms: Implications for waste-dispersal models

Fish poop leeches quite a bit into the water column, and carnivorous fish leeched faster than omnivores and herbivores. The authors also discussed that it may lead to eutrophication of the water and effect the microbial structure....which to me, it seems like bacterial blooms and weird growths on fish in our aquariums is one of the results of that.
Okay, but where exactly is the link between pollution / bad waterparameters and Dermocystidium.

Personally I seriously doubt there is one and I don't see anything in the mentioned waterparameters that would point towards this as cause of the "problem".

Of course pollution leads to all kinds of issues, but I can't see why that would be the cause or issue here.
 

MacZ

Going by that logic my botanical blackwater tank should be a death trap.

Besides the fact that it would be definitely nice if you could link the articles without paywall (40 bucks for an article? I'm in academia and used to unbelievable pricing but this is theft!) ... An excerpt alone without knowing details on methods and settings is not very helpful.

It is common knowledge that adequate water quality is one of the keys to good fishkeeping but with the waterchange schedule of this tank I see absolutely no reason to put it on the water quality.

Also with dermoscystidium I can definitely say water quality is important, but not in context of incubation and outbreak. Rather in context of dealing with the parasitosis itself.
 

Cherryshrimp420

Going by that logic my botanical blackwater tank should be a death trap.

Besides the fact that it would be definitely nice if you could link the articles without paywall (40 bucks for an article? I'm in academia and used to unbelievable pricing but this is theft!) ... An excerpt alone without knowing details on methods and settings is not very helpful.

It is common knowledge that adequate water quality is one of the keys to good fishkeeping but with the waterchange schedule of this tank I see absolutely no reason to put it on the water quality.

Also with dermoscystidium I can definitely say water quality is important, but not in context of incubation and outbreak. Rather in context of dealing with the parasitosis itself.

Blackwater does not have high DOC though, but rather quite low compared to other water systems.

Well, most papers are behind paywalls, I assume there are many ways to obtain them for free. If it is within the rules of the forum then I can attach the PDFs.

Anyways this is getting off topic, the OP may or may not have overfed and even if she did, the water may have become okay by now. Hopefully the rummynose recovers
 

DoubleDutch

Blackwater does not have high DOC though, but rather quite low compared to other water systems.

Well, most papers are behind paywalls, I assume there are many ways to obtain them for free. If it is within the rules of the forum then I can attach the PDFs.

Anyways this is getting off topic, the OP may or may not have overfed and even if she did, the water may have become okay by now. Hopefully the rummynose recovers
Huh where exactly are we going of topic?

We have ID-ed an issue and then you're having a quite interesting post that the waterparameters are culprit, OP is overfeeding and only has to wait for a next infection.

When I ask where that statement is based on (I don't see such a relation or cause), we're going off topic ?
 

MacZ

Blackwater does not have high DOC though, but rather quite low compared to other water systems.
Well, for one, in a tank that has a several centimeter deep layer of rotting leaves it is to expect to find relatively high DOC. As I can't remove any debris of food (90% live artemia nauplii are the staple) or fish waste, it stays in. The fish are doing great though.

My point is what you say yourself: Water systems are different. Conditions are different. So I don't think you can transfer the results of these specific papers that easily onto any fish tank. Going by the little information I can access.

And still I'm missing the relationship with diseases.

Well, most papers are behind paywalls, I assume there are many ways to obtain them for free. If it is within the rules of the forum then I can attach the PDFs.
Bad enough many are behind paywalls, but it's extra frustrating when it's a smaller site or nationally limited access, when writing in an international forum.
The bibliographial info would have sufficed then. Just please don't link it if it's not fully free to read.
 

Blacksheep1

I feed one cube of frozen per day if freezing frozen or a pinch of flakes with a tiny pinch of catfish pellets , there’s never anything left after 1 minute never mind two. Starve day once a week. Every other day I feed the pleco a veggie, he strips it with in an hour and I remove the rind .

I change minimum 50% per week , sometimes I’ll do a 30-40% that’s maybe once or twice on top of the 50%. I’ve not medicated the tank or the tetras in Qt. Nitrates never go above 40. There’s plants in the tank, driftwood , alder cones and ial. If water quality has caused this issue I’m not sure what else I need to do, add another wc to my schedule or another filter / change media maybe ?
the OP may or may not have overfed and even if she did, the water may have become okay by now. Hopefully the rummynose recovers
They are in qt and are acting exactly the same. The main tank is also exactly the same. If you need any more info please ask.
Edit—— not tested gh in that tank for a while so after it being mentioned I just did. It’s 7.
 

Cherryshrimp420

Well, for one, in a tank that has a several centimeter deep layer of rotting leaves it is to expect to find relatively high DOC. As I can't remove any debris of food (90% live artemia nauplii are the staple) or fish waste, it stays in. The fish are doing great though.

My point is what you say yourself: Water systems are different. Conditions are different. So I don't think you can transfer the results of these specific papers that easily onto any fish tank. Going by the little information I can access.

And still I'm missing the relationship with diseases.


Bad enough many are behind paywalls, but it's extra frustrating when it's a smaller site or nationally limited access, when writing in an international forum.
The bibliographial info would have sufficed then. Just please don't link it if it's not fully free to read.
The organic detritus on the floor is not DOC, it is not dissolved if it is on the floor. The leeching is less from decomposition (which goes mostly into co2) but more from mechanical separation of organic molecules as the leaf falls down the water column. Not all organic matter leeches equally, the soft carnivore poop leeched more DOC than the firm herbivore poop, even though they were fed the same food.

Most studies on fish are behind paywalls, but they are accessible to research institutions and there are "open access" movements that provide them for free. Just look up open access research papers and you should be able to access the majority of studies

I feed one cube of frozen per day if freezing frozen or a pinch of flakes with a tiny pinch of catfish pellets , there’s never anything left after 1 minute never mind two. Starve day once a week. Every other day I feed the pleco a veggie, he strips it with in an hour and I remove the rind .

Wow that is quite a bit of food, especially the frozen cube which can foul the water quite quickly. The 2 minute rule on fish food labels is not a good rule for water quality, but more so that you use up the food quicker so you will buy more. My advice is to just feed enough to be eaten immediately, not in 1 or 2 minutes.
 

Blacksheep1

I politely disagree. As the cube dissolves and sinks it’s eaten before it hits the substrate. The same for the tetra flakes. The only things that reach the bottom is when I purposely feed the bottom dwellers. There’s never anything left.

I don’t disagree with you on the 2 minute rule though and like I say the food doesn’t last a minute. Thankyou for your input :)
 

MacZ

The organic detritus on the floor is not DOC, it is not dissolved if it is on the floor. The leeching is less from decomposition (which goes mostly into co2) but more from mechanical separation of organic molecules as the leaf falls down the water column. Not all organic matter leeches equally, the soft carnivore poop leeched more DOC than the firm herbivore poop, even though they were fed the same food.
I was not talking about detritus, I was talking about layers of organic matter in all stages of decomposition leaching things.

Most studies on fish are behind paywalls, but they are accessible to research institutions and there are "open access" movements that provide them for free. Just look up open access research papers and you should be able to access the majority of studies
You don't get it and I spare myself further discussion.
 

Cherryshrimp420

I was not talking about detritus, I was talking about layers of organic matter in all stages of decomposition leaching things.


You don't get it and I spare myself further discussion.
In the decomposition process most of the carbon in the organic matter is turned into CO2 which is INORGANIC carbon so it increases DIC but the CO2 just gasses off anyways. DOC is really just organic molecules breaking off and mixing into the water as food or poops fall through the water column. If you were to stir up the layers of organic matter, then DOC would spike temporarily if that makes it easier to understand.
I politely disagree. As the cube dissolves and sinks it’s eaten before it hits the substrate. The same for the tetra flakes. The only things that reach the bottom is when I purposely feed the bottom dwellers. There’s never anything left.

I don’t disagree with you on the 2 minute rule though and like I say the food doesn’t last a minute. Thankyou for your input :)

Sure, but it really doesn't matter what we humans think is enough food or not. It's the health of the fish that determines it. The tank exists at an equilibrium of waste production and waste removal, so if the fish is getting sick or showing weird growth then whatever feeding or maintenance we do needs to be adjusted.

My feeding amounts is just my experience of keeping healthy fish, but if you can feed more and have healthy fish then that is great too.
 

Blacksheep1

Sure, but it really doesn't matter what we humans think is enough food or not. It's the health of the fish that determines it. The tank exists at an equilibrium of waste production and waste removal, so if the fish is getting sick or showing weird growth then whatever feeding or maintenance we do needs to be adjusted.

My feeding amounts is just my experience of keeping healthy fish, but if you can feed more and have healthy fish then that is great too.
I appreciate your point and I do understand how over feeding affects a tank and the water quality. it isn’t so much as what I think is the right amount per say, I feed from observation of my tank and have worked up to the amount needed so every fish gets at least something.

what I’m not seeing is the correlation to water quality and this infection . Of course I agree a lot of issues are caused by what you are saying, from everything I’ve read on this particular one no where has stated water quality to be the cause.

from every comment and my parameters I didn’t think I had an issue with the quality, however like I always say I’m more than willing to learn and adapt.
From my research this was the temperature I was seeing too. I don’t mind upping my temp by a degree or two though to 26/27c
 

Cherryshrimp420

That link has been posted before, it's not correct. Rummynose have been reported to spawn reliably at 33C and keepers have had success at no lower than 28C

This has been discussed to no end on discus forums as they are the most popular companion and yes, people do need to bring their tanks to 82F - 84F (28C) and it's usully an expensive lesson

Anyways these are all just hobbyist inputs. You can definitely try below 28C but I would be very surprised if they can last a year.
 

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