Rotala Indica Deficiencies?

Help!

I’ve since planted my Rotala Indica 2 weeks ago. Some of the stems are looking deficient. They’ve grown & ive had to trim, but the leaves don’t look as healthy as when I first obtained them. I’m dosing the NPK’s every few days, flourish about once per week. Iron, as well. Substrate is Flourite with flourish tabs. Dosing CO2, using diffuser. Normal light schedule, Tank is 1 year matured.

 

What do you think their deficiency is?

They look healthy to me!

 

Those plants look gorgeous - in fact, all of the plants in that tank do. I would just wait a little longer if there is a problem. Some plants take a while to adjust.

 

What do you think their deficiency is?

They look healthy to me!

Well the leaves have cupped a bit, and the stems have turned a yellowish color. Not sure.

 

HI aquadude91 ,

What are you dosing for NPK?
Are you dosing iron (Fe) besides what is in the Flourish Comprehensive?
What is your PH?
Do you know your dKH and dGH; if so what are they?
Do you dose any sort of GH Booster like Seachem Equilibrium?

-Roy

 

HI aquadude91 ,

What are you dosing for NPK?
Are you dosing iron (Fe) besides what is in the Flourish Comprehensive?
What is your PH?
Do you know your dKH and dGH; if so what are they?
Do you dose any sort of GH Booster like Seachem Equilibrium?

-Roy

I’m using seachem Pottasium, Phosporus, and Nitrogen. I am also dosing seachem Iron. pH 7.8, dKH is 5-6, dGH is about 15-18. I don’t use GH booster or equilibrium

 

HI aquadude91 ,

I see a two or three things going on; there appears to have been a calcium deficiency in the past but it may have been resolved, the margins of the older leaves are curling under along the length of the leaf, the new growth is looking yellowish which is likely either an iron or nitrogen deficiency. I downloaded your picture and added some arrows so you can see what I am referring to in the photo. Where you see #1 arrows do you notice how the tip of the leaf 'hooks' downward? When this shows up on newer leaves it is a sign that the plant is to getting sufficient calcium (Ca). Where you see #2 in the photo, can you see how the leaves are 'curling' along the long axis of the leaf at the margins? This shows up in older leaves when the plant requires more magnesium (Mg).

As for the" yellowing" of the growth I am guessing it is the newer leaves? If so the likely problem is nitrogen or iron.

What size tank?
How much Flourish Nitrogen are you dosing? How many times per week?
How much Flourish Iron are you dosing? How many times per week?

Then we will discuss how to proceed to improve the plant health.

 

HI aquadude91 ,

I see a two or three things going on; there appears to have been a calcium deficiency in the past but it may have been resolved, the margins of the older leaves are curling under along the length of the leaf, the new growth is looking yellowish which is likely either an iron or nitrogen deficiency. I downloaded your picture and added some arrows so you can see what I am referring to in the photo. Where you see #1 arrows do you notice how the tip of the leaf 'hooks' downward? When this shows up on newer leaves it is a sign that the plant is to getting sufficient calcium (Ca). Where you see #2 in the photo, can you see how the leaves are 'curling' along the long axis of the leaf at the margins? This shows up in older leaves when the plant requires more magnesium (Mg).

As for the" yellowing" of the growth I am guessing it is the newer leaves? If so the likely problem is nitrogen or iron.

What size tank?
How much Flourish Nitrogen are you dosing? How many times per week?
How much Flourish Iron are you dosing? How many times per week?

Then we will discuss how to proceed to improve the plant health.

View attachment 401239

The tank is a 10 gallon. I only dose nitrogen on occasion as my nitrates usually consistently stay around 20-40 PPM. Flourish Iron every few days, and I doze according to what the instructions say. The standard flourish I dose once a week, the day after a water change. I have crushed coral to maintain a stable kH so I thought that’d take care of calcium. Maybe it’s magnesium. Not sure? What other questions may I answer to help you determine this one. I’m at a loss!

 

HI aquadude91 ,

Not a huge fan of using crushed coral in a freshwater tank. It tends to push up the PH, dKH, and dGH and adds a lot of calcium to the water which is not what we want for plants nor for many fish varieties except for the rift lake African cichlids. The high PH can effect the uptake of some types of iron, the calcium level can effect the uptake of magnesium in plants. Hopefully you tap water is softer than your tank water.

First do a 25% water change, that should hopefully reduce the calcium, and lower the PH a little. If the crushed coral is in a filter where it can be removed, please do so. Start dosing the Seachem Nitrogen once a week. Continue the iron as you are currently dosing. Add 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom Salt (yes just plain epsom salt / MgSO4*7H20 with no additives) twice a week. Do weekly 25% water changes.

Now the hard part......wait! The existing leaves will not change. The new leaves as they emerge should be greener, maybe a little larger, and the growth rate may improve somewhat. As the leaves mature they should not curl as the existing leaves are doing. If you dKH drops below 3.0 or your dGH drops below 6.0 then you can put the crushed coral back in until the dGH gets back to 6.0. Keep me posted as to how things progress, you should see some changes in about two weeks.

 

HI aquadude91 ,

Not a huge fan of using crushed coral in a freshwater tank. It tends to push up the PH, dKH, and dGH and adds a lot of calcium to the water which is not what we want for plants nor for many fish varieties except for the rift lake African cichlids. The high PH can effect the uptake of some types of iron, the calcium level can effect the uptake of magnesium in plants. Hopefully you tap water is softer than your tank water.

First do a 25% water change, that should hopefully reduce the calcium, and lower the PH a little. If the crushed coral is in a filter where it can be removed, please do so. Start dosing the Seachem Nitrogen once a week. Continue the iron as you are currently dosing. Add 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom Salt (yes just plain epsom salt / MgSO4*7H20 with no additives) twice a week. Do weekly 25% water changes.

Now the hard part......wait! The existing leaves will not change. The new leaves as they emerge should be greener, maybe a little larger, and the growth rate may improve somewhat. As the leaves mature they should not curl as the existing leaves are doing. If you dKH drops below 3.0 or your dGH drops below 6.0 then you can put the crushed coral back in until the dGH gets back to 6.0. Keep me posted as to how things progress, you should see some changes in about two weeks.

I went ahead & removed the crushed coral. The only reason I did the coral to begin with, was because when I was first learning the trade, I decided to convert my tank from tap water to Distilled water. I did it too quickly & as you know distilled water has nothing in it so my pH became under 5, and my tank went out of whack. I had just left the crushed coral in there for 8 months or so, but my dKH never got above 6. My tap water dKH is 6, I just measured. A bit high. So I can see that crushed coral isn’t even necessary at this point. Even though I’ve removed the crushed coral, being my tap water is 6 for dKH, should I still see improvement? As far as the epsom salt is concerned, what does this do for the tank? Also, what is the best product to use for aquaria epsom?

Update: my tank dGH is currently 20, after a WC. Tap water dGH is 15-16. Seems like I have hard tap water. If this is the case then Epsom salt might not be necessary?

 

HI aquadude91 ,

Yes, you do have "moderately hard water" however dGH does not give us any clue as to how much Ca or Mg we have in our water.....just the total amount of divalent metals in our water solution. Granted that most of the divalent metals in our water are either calcium or magnesium but iron, manganese, zinc, and others also contribute to our dGH. What complicates understanding dGH is the hardness is measured in "CaCO3 equivalent" units even though what we are measuring is Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, Zn, and other metals. A dGH is is "equivalent to 0.17832 mmol per litre of elemental calcium and/or magnesium ions" but how much is Ca? How much is Mg? How much is 'Other'? dGH does not answer that. To boil it down dGH does not tell us how much (if any) Ca, Mg, Fe, etc. is in our water sample.....just that there is some of one or all of those metals are present.

As for your water, you could have a balance of calcium or magnesium or you could not......the dGH does not tell us. Depending upon where you live, and the source of water your utility provides, you could have an abundance of calcium (common), magnesium (sometimes), iron (sometimes), or others (unlikely). Most water utilities do regular water testing, they may post the results online (like here in Seattle) or you may have to call and request a copy of the most recent test results. Unfortunately not all utilities test the same way, or measure 'non-regulated' ingredients in the water like calcium and magnesium or iron.

You asked what magnesium does for your tank. Magnesium is not only necessary for plant health but for fish health (and our health as well). In plants, magnesium is a 'mobile nutrient' meaning that a plant can move the nutrient to where it is needed within the plant. Since the primary priority of a plant is to grow, if there are not sufficient nutrients in the substrate of water column for new growth then the plant will move mobile nutrients from existing leaves to new leaves to maintain growth. As the plant migrates mobile nutrients from the older, existing leaves to the new growth signs of the deficiency deficiency will begin to appear. What does the deficiency look like? It depends upon the nutrient that is deficient and how a particular plant species responds to that deficiency. Here is a description of magnesium deficiency. A plant species may show one, some, or all of the symptoms listed depending upon the species and the magnitude of the deficiency. The symptom I spotted on your stems was the leaf margins curling downward.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems have a tendency to curve upward and are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.

We do have one other item to consider, if you notice the description of the deficiency it states "Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium", hopefully we are just dealing with a regular magnesium deficiency and not one brought on by too much calcium in the water.....that is why I asked that the crushed coral be removed. If it is just a plain magnesium deficiency the addition of plain old Epsom Salt (MgSO4), available at your local market or drug store, should provide the benefits posted above. Hope this helps! -roy

 

HI aquadude91 ,

Yes, you do have "moderately hard water" however dGH does not give us any clue as to how much Ca or Mg we have in our water.....just the total amount of divalent metals in our water solution. Granted that most of the divalent metals in our water are either calcium or magnesium but iron, manganese, zinc, and others also contribute to our dGH. What complicates understanding dGH is the hardness is measured in "CaCO3 equivalent" units even though what we are measuring is Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, Zn, and other metals. A dGH is is "equivalent to 0.17832 mmol per litre of elemental calcium and/or magnesium ions" but how much is Ca? How much is Mg? How much is 'Other'? dGH does not answer that. To boil it down dGH does not tell us how much (if any) Ca, Mg, Fe, etc. is in our water sample.....just that there is some of one or all of those metals are present.

As for your water, you could have a balance of calcium or magnesium or you could not......the dGH does not tell us. Depending upon where you live, and the source of water your utility provides, you could have an abundance of calcium (common), magnesium (sometimes), iron (sometimes), or others (unlikely). Most water utilities do regular water testing, they may post the results online (like here in Seattle) or you may have to call and request a copy of the most recent test results. Unfortunately not all utilities test the same way, or measure 'non-regulated' ingredients in the water like calcium and magnesium or iron.

You asked what magnesium does for your tank. Magnesium is not only necessary for plant health but for fish health (and our health as well). In plants, magnesium is a 'mobile nutrient' meaning that a plant can move the nutrient to where it is needed within the plant. Since the primary priority of a plant is to grow, if there are not sufficient nutrients in the substrate of water column for new growth then the plant will move mobile nutrients from existing leaves to new leaves to maintain growth. As the plant migrates mobile nutrients from the older, existing leaves to the new growth signs of deficiency. What does the deficiency look like? It depends upon the nutrient that is deficient and how a particular plant species responds to that deficiency. Here is a description of magnesium deficiency. A plant species may show one, some, or all of the symptoms listed depending upon the species and the magnitude of the deficiency. The symptom I spotted on your stems was the leaf margins curling downward.



We do have one other item to consider, if you notice the description of the deficiency it states "Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium", hopefully we are just dealing with a regular magnesium deficiency and not one brought on by too much calcium in the water.....that is why I asked that the crushed coral be removed. If it is just a plain magnesium deficiency the addition of plain old Epsom Salt (MgSO4), available at your local market or drug store, should provide the benefits posted above. Hope this helps! -roy

Thanks for this valuable information. I went ahead and dosed 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom salt into a cup of water dissolved and poured into tank. I will do this again in a few days. My other thinking was the substrate. I’m using Seachem Flourite by itself. No soil, or dirt. I did our flourish root tabs into the substrate a while back. I’m wondering if this substrate is sufficient to support a planted tank. I know I’ve had excess nutrients in my tank as I just had an algae outbreak, and decided to start over and replant. The algae has stayed away. Do you know if this substrate by itself is suitable to my plants? I only have Rotala Indica & Dwarf lillie’s. Also, should I consider trying to bring my hardness down by mixing distilled water with my tap, for WC’s?

 

HI aquadude91 ,

Seachem Flourite is a good substrate however it contains no macro-nutrients such as nitrogen, phosphorus, and potash. It does contain a fair amount of micro-nutrients however they may not be available to the plants in the quantity a species requires. No, Flourite by itself will not be able to sustain healthy plants. I prefer not to "mix" water unless it is absolutely necessary. It is a lot of work and can get expensive over time. Let's see how your plants do for the next couple weeks and review how things are going then.

 

HI aquadude91 ,

Seachem Flourite is a good substrate however it contains no macro-nutrients such as nitrogen, phosphorus, and potash. It does contain a fair amount of micro-nutrients however they may not be available to the plants in the quantity a species requires. No, Flourite by itself will not be able to sustain healthy plants. I prefer not to "mix" water unless it is absolutely necessary. It is a lot of work and can get expensive over time. Let's see how your plants do for the next couple weeks and review how things are going then.

I went ahead and upgraded to a 20 gallon. Mixed some of my old tank Flourite with Eco-complete planted aquarium substrate. I used all the old filter media & the old tank water. Now it just has to settle.

 

HI aquadude91 ,

It should look good when it clears and the plants start filling in; hopefully your plants will do better with a little less calcium.
-Roy