Reverse UGF: constructive criticism needed.

I have a 55 gallon with African Leaf Fish and lots of caves and hiding spots. The gravel vac is not easy and those hiding spots are gravel dirt magnets. So how do I get a system that needs little or no gravel vacuuming? I want to try a reverse flow undergravel filter.
I wont take a chance on this heavily planted, densely covered environment but I have a 38 gallon that will be my experiment. It has Angels, bandit corys, ottos and snails with plants in pots. It has 3 ugly sponge filters and an HOB. Water is great except for base of sponge filter under driftwood and under plant pots.(dirt magnets).

So here is the 38 plan. Small sponge or skimmer on a slow small water pump near surface but hidden by plants in the corner back. Oxygen rich water forced under the plate and up into the gravel. I would keep the HOB to round up the suspended waste and debris. PWC schedule will be unchanged. The transition will be over a month or two so that the beneficial bacteria can get into the gravel. The corys will be watched, had them a year on smallest gravel with no problems. Will watch to see if algae or plant problems show up.

The thought is that removing sponge filters give more space for Angels and the gravel would need almost no vacuuming. Before anyone suggest alternatives, let me spell out the deal breakers that I tried and dislike. Sand. Bare bottom. Cannister. Sponge filter on suction cups. Hamberg Matten filter.

Do you think that this set-up would only need, water changes and HOB floss changes? This 38 gallon tank would be the experiment. I would put in hand made stone caves to see if they still collect gravel dirt. I would move one of my plecos there too because they are poop factories. The lifeforms most affected by this drastic change would be my Malaysian trumpet snails, assassin snails, the Corys, and the Ottos somewhat.

I'm about the try this. Looking for some UGF that are cheap but can hold up to rocks. Pet co maybe?
So let's hear the pros and cons. If you under 21, please google under gravel filter, reverse flow.

 

I have many tanks that never get the gravel vacuumed. Some have under gravel filters, some do not.

The key here is to maintain a balanced environment where the build up of organic waste in the gravel is processed by the bio filter. So it is all about the stocking.

Keep the stocking on the light side, and don't over feed. Feed pellets that they eat all of so there is no extra food. The only thing that should be building up in the gravel is fish poop. Then you never need to clean your gravel. Pelleted food is one of the keys actually to never cleaning the gravel.

The UGF or reverse UGF brings more water to the bio filter, which would allow you to have more stock and will digest more waste.

So the best is to use the UGF (or reverse UGF - I don't think the direct matters, just the flow) and then also keep understocked. You will never have to clean the gravel!! I have tanks like this and they are crystal clear and beautiful. Zero gravel vacuuming.

BTW, it is WAYYY better to use a power head with your UGF. Plenty of them allow you to flow either direction. So definitely get power heads.

 

Many thanks for the advice. You're absolutely right about pellet foods. My multiple bags of flake food have sat untouched for years. Also, the inexperienced always ask why I don't have more fish. I use aqadvisor to estimate my stocking.
I'm not well versed in powerheads. I bought a marineland 15 years ago trying to help with water changes but that was a mistake so I tossed it. Sicce Ultra Zero, now that's a fast water change.
Isn't a powerhead similar to a submersible water pump but with more flexibility? Pumps are cheap and powerheads seem to be bigger and more expensive. I'm thinking 200 gph flow for the entire set up and using only one flow tube. Sounds risky but I can modify that if needed.
In the last 10 years, my tank filter flow rates were cut to one third. If you don't overfeed and keep up on water changes one slow HOB with sponges works well. But we should repeat Fishlore's advice. What works for some doesn't mean it works for you.
As for zero gravel vacuuming, that's not possible for me. My plecos don't get fed much and my plants and glass are spotless, but they still leave enough poop that collects. Maybe it's only a visual problem but I worry a bit on that.
I really want to try this but not until I hear from others who did reverse flow.

 

One consideration is aeration of the water. All gas exchange is achieved at the surface and requires that the surface be broken or well agitated. Either with bubbles or a water pump of any sort discharging across the surface. Reverse flow UGF does not do this. This is why I favor the normal flow UGF which I have had great success with for decades.

UGF's always give me crystal clear water, which I favor, whether used on their own or along with an additional filter. I've never tried RFUGF but do wonder if the water would be as clear blowing wastes up into the water column instead of pulling them down into the substrate. (even with the aid of an additional HOB filter)

As long as you use some other means to achieve proper surface agitation I believe your plan is solid, and look forward to seeing and reading more about it.

 

Surface agitation is no problem. I have a nice collection of air pumps, bubble wands, and a cheap surface skimmer. I can pick and choose from that. Blowing waste up instead of down will be interesting but we won't know for months because I'll decrease my 3 huge sponge filters over an exgtended time. People forget the sponges clear the water so well. Just watch the plecos and ottos hang onto them to eat. And when you squeeze them to clean, micro particles come out.

Now to really add another unknown into this experiment, I will replace the gravel with small smooth pebbles from Estes natural collection.
Another question for the group. Should I collect data on ph and nitrogen for your analysis? It could be helpful to those interested.
Frankly, I haven't used a test kit in 2 years. I use to test EVERYTHING, pH, phosphates, hardness, nitro, etc and our municipal water supply pH changes somewhat and the hardness is pretty high for Angelfish. But my strategy changed when a LFS refused my angel juvies because he said they would be too fragile due to inbred US stock and home breeders treating fry with kid gloves. So I've gone more robust with the handling, survival of the fittest. Even my water change temperature is done by a hand in the water. I laugh at having to be HALF a degree off in the past using digital thermometers.

I'll wait another couple weeks to hear more advice before I order the gravel and filter frame. I do appreciate the expert advice received so far! For those longtime fish people that evolved from UG filters to corner box to HOB to sponge to canister, their stories should be in a book. I'd get that one!

 

I think you should consider the normal flow UGF with a power head. Why go reverse flow? I am not sure the reasoning on reverse flow is sound.

A power head places the impeller right at the head height which maximizes the amount of flow you get. Using external pumps and hoses will only reduce the flow rate and is less efficient.

The water (and oxygen) you bring to the bio filter the bigger your biofilter.

 

I was persuaded to try reverse flow UGF but it didn't work for me. Instead of crystal clear water I had all the detritus suspended in the water column and this looked terrible despite adding a canister filter to try and filter this. So I changed back and still have conventional UGF working fine 27 years later.

 

Now that's what I want to hear. Real experience with reverse flow.

I don't have data to back this up but going with logic the flow up or down should not impact the gravel biofilter. Normal flow pulls debris into the gravel which is what I am trying to avoid. Reverse flow puts debris in water level which would be filtered by HOB.
My main goal is less gravel vacuuming and more strain on HOB. The clarity of the water will be important and if this fails, I would switch to normal flow and we all learn something important. The powerhead would be useful if switching from reverse to normal flow. Right now I have small submersible impeller pumps that could easily force water into UGF tubes.

Like I said, this will be a long term experiment. As I back off the sponges one at a time we will see if water clarity degrades. Right now I have one HOB, 3 sponges and crystal clear water.

Loving this conversation, keep sending your thoughts. Different brains working for same cause. There is more than one way to keep aquariums. My path , at this time, is less traveled. But don't be surprised if the tried and true UGF comes out the winner.

 

I am in process of upgrading, and I am thinking of setting up reverse UGF + some sort of over-the-tank mechanical filter to remove detritus. Ideally all powered by air, however, I am ready to add powerheads if needed.

The thought and goal is to eliminate sponge filter and external filter make making the tank just one self sufficient unit. The gravel surface area, if utilized properly, should be more than enough for all bio filtration needs.

 

I was persuaded to try reverse flow UGF but it didn't work for me. Instead of crystal clear water I had all the detritus suspended in the water column and this looked terrible despite adding a canister filter to try and filter this. So I changed back and still have conventional UGF working fine 27 years later.

Thanks for sharing your experience !

Can you please share some more details ? Tank size, planted (heavily?) or not, frequency of gravel vacuum, fish density..etc

 

Thanks for your interest !

120g no plants gravel vac 50% each week six clown loaches 15 harlequin rasboras 1 bristlenose etc.

 

086 - what did you decide on UGF or reverse-UGF ? Any progress update on your project ?