Resurrected Freshwater Tank Ph Very Low & Ammonia Problem

Kia ora from Taranaki, New Zealand!

Brief history of our fish-slaughterous mistakes from 2013. Bought used 165L Aqua One AR850 tank. Previously used for goldfish. Made rookie mistake of getting fish straight away before proper cycling. Too many fish. Didn't clean frequently enough. Etc. Horrific results over about a year, cumulating in us giving up so as not to murderer any more innocent tropical fish. Tank sits unused until Nov 2017, growing algae & sitting as silent guilty memorial. Daughters cleaned completely, using nothing but water and elbow grease. Fishless cycle of over 5 weeks.
Eventually stabilised at:
6.6pH
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
10-30 Nitrate
We're rural so we're on rainwater. (Haven't yet tested tap for "true" pH using air stone.)
Bought 4 Danio to start after 5 weeks. They seemed fine but a bit nippy. Cleaned 20% (vacuum) after a week & brought before and after clean water to pet store. Everything fine except pet store got pH of 6. Decided to start slowly adding in bottled spring water to tank to lift pH slightly (50/50 with tap).
Bought 2 rainbows, 2 more Danio & 3 gourami. Also bought 21L "hospital" tank & started fishless cycle.
Overnight, lost 1 Danio. Tested water. pH 6.4, but ammonia closer to .25.
Cleaned 25% with vacuum. Ammonia back to 0, but lost a rainbow overnight.

Waited a week. Stable tests again - pH back to 6.8ish. Replaced rainbow, Danio & got baby pleco.

Tested 24 hours later, ammonia ok but pH plummeted to 6 (or lower but can't test for lower).

Tested hospital tank for comparison. pH 7.4!!! Researched online. Had discounted KH because we're on tank water, supplementing with spring water. Got KH test. Goes yellow with 1 drop. Got oyster grit bag to hang by water flow.

Did more research. Checked filter bio-noods. Grimy and misshapen. Tried to rinse 20% in old tank water but they got no cleaner. Ordered new noods. Rinsed in old tank water. Replaced 25% 2 days ago ....

*CUE DOOM MUSIC*

Rainbows started hiding yesterday afternoon. Checked ammonia - .25. Did 20L clean & vacuum.

Woke up this morning to ALL fish hiding including Danio. Checked ammonia. Over .5 closer to 1.0!

Immediate 50% change & vacuum. Danios almost instantly came out of hiding. Ammonia back down to almost 0. Rainbows still hiding though.

Question 1: has the bio-nood change caused a minI cycle? If so, how long till it stabilises again? Can I do anything else other than 50% changes daily until then?

Question 2: is my KH causing the pH to flux? If so, then why is the hospital tank pH so different? Will the oyster grit help?

Question 3: with the pH of both tanks so wildly different, can we acclimate the fish from the big tank to the higher pH of the hospital tank to save them through the ammonia cycle or is that stupid given the hospital tank isn't done cycling itself and it's too small for all our fish?

 

Answer 1 : Stop vacuuming for at least a month, your beneficial bacteria lives in your filter and your substrate and every time you vacuum you get rid of a bunch.

Answer 2 : Don't know

Answer 3 : I wouldn't bother transferring the fish, it's not like you're having issues with disease. Plus your BB need a source of food (ammonia) and your fish create this. Just do daily 50% water changes and dose everyday with Seachem Prime.

 

Answer 1 : Stop vacuuming for at least a month, your beneficial bacteria lives in your filter and your substrate and every time you vacuum you get rid of a bunch.

Answer 2 : Don't know

Answer 3 : I wouldn't bother transferring the fish, it's not like you're having issues with disease. Plus your BB need a source of food (ammonia) and your fish create this. Just do daily 50% water changes and dose everyday with Seachem Prime.

Thank you. We didn't vacuum enough the first time round, so perhaps I've now gone overboard. Bought Prime today, so excellent to have that decision reinforced!

I guess I'll just trust the water changes alone will control the ammonia...

 

Question 1: has the bio-nood change caused a minI cycle? If so, how long till it stabilises again? Can I do anything else other than 50% changes daily until then?

Yes, and see next for more info. Daily 50% water changes are going to be your best friend. Stop vacuuming every time, reduce it to weekly or small sections each change, don't vacuum it all every time.

Question 2: is my KH causing the pH to flux? If so, then why is the hospital tank pH so different? Will the oyster grit help?

Yes, 1° kH is very very low and isn't enough of a buffer to keep your pH stable. Ammonia from the fish is actually going to use up some of that buffer as well. Good news is that when your pH is lower than 7 Ammonia is "less" harmful to fish, that is not to say it is not still harmful, especially so close to 7 its definitely still harmful but just less so. The low and fluctuating pH is also inhibiting the cycle from being properly established and why you are continuing to see Ammonia in the tank. Once you stabilize your pH a bacteria starter may be beneficial, I use Stability by seachem when I have a bump in a tank with fish.

Question 3: with the pH of both tanks so wildly different, can we acclimate the fish from the big tank to the higher pH of the hospital tank to save them through the ammonia cycle or is that stupid given the hospital tank isn't done cycling itself and it's too small for all our fish?

I would not move the fish, pH difference alone will disrupt them tremendously and potentially be fatal depending on the kH and gH differences as well. Leave them where they are and work on bringing their tank to acceptable parameters.

Oyster grit is going to help add buffer to the tank, I would actually put it into the filter rather than in front of the outflow, it will do more good there. Large water changes are going to be counter acting the effects though especially daily or every other day. It may actually be beneficial to order a kH buffer, I'd use something well renowned such as one used for cardina shrimp NOT a bottle of liquid chemical as sold by API. I would also only raise your kH to 3° and do so gradually over a week or 10 days. Monitor it closely, if you still see the pH going down over a few days raise further to 4° and if absolutely necessary to 5°. Do not raise to 4° unless it's consistently dropping by at least 2 allowing your pH to begin diving as well. Some people use baking soda to increase kH with great luck, I advise against this but it may suit your needs if funds are an issue. Keep in mind that you will have to test pH and kH of all water going into the tank and adjust dosing of whatever you use to meet the tanks parameters. With baking soda you will have to recalculate, with a good kH product the it will be much easier, both will require regular water testing and precision.

 

Yes, and see next for more info. Daily 50% water changes are going to be your best friend. Stop vacuuming every time, reduce it to weekly or small sections each change, don't vacuum it all every time.

Yep, makes sense. I've never vacuumed the whole thing during weekly cleaning, but I think I have vacuumed too often.

Yes, 1° kH is very very low and isn't enough of a buffer to keep your pH stable. Ammonia from the fish is actually going to use up some of that buffer as well. Good news is that when your pH is lower than 7 Ammonia is "less" harmful to fish, that is not to say it is not still harmful, especially so close to 7 its definitely still harmful but just less so.

The pH has been at 6 (or lower for all the test can detect) for nearly a week. I've tested daily and after every change to conditions. The fish haven't reacted until the ammonia spiked.

The low and fluctuating pH is also inhibiting the cycle from being properly established and why you are continuing to see Ammonia in the tank. Once you stabilize your pH a bacteria starter may be beneficial, I use Stability by seachem when I have a bump in a tank with fish.

Excellent. I will order some. Thank you.

Oyster grit is going to help add buffer to the tank, I would actually put it into the filter rather than in front of the outflow, it will do more good there. Large water changes are going to be counter acting the effects though especially daily or every other day. It may actually be beneficial to order a kH buffer, I'd use something well renowned such as one used for cardina shrimp NOT a bottle of liquid chemical as sold by API.

How do I know how much oyster grit to add to the filter? Do I add it to the layer with the noods? And do I just take the mesh bag out of the tank and use the grit in the filter alone? I put it in the bag because another thread on this forum said to use it in the tank in a way that can be removed easily once the parameters are stable....

I would also only raise your kH to 3° and do so gradually over a week or 10 days. Monitor it closely, if you still see the pH going down over a few days raise further to 4° and if absolutely necessary to 5°. Do not raise to 4° unless it's consistently dropping by at least 2 allowing your pH to begin diving as well. Some people use baking soda to increase kH with great luck, I advise against this but it may suit your needs if funds are an issue. Keep in mind that you will have to test pH and kH of all water going into the tank and adjust dosing of whatever you use to meet the tanks parameters. With baking soda you will have to recalculate, with a good kH product the it will be much easier, both will require regular water testing and precision.

Phew! Thank you! I never realised how much chemistry a tank would require... not that I mind as a former geologist....

Really appreciate your advice. I'll post an update as new reply

Update: came home with Prime to find them all hiding again. Added Prime and within seconds the Danios were acting normal. After a couple minutes the rainbows cruised out... but now an hour later everyone is hiding again. Danios on the gravel at the bottom but alive. Turned lights back off (only turned them on to add Prime & see if everyone was alive) & randomly the rainbows & gourami came out.

Will do another 50% water change (without vacuuming) tomorrow morning, but have a feeling we'll loose a few overnight... is doing more than one 50% change in a day advisable? Wouldn't have thought so but obviously we're not experts

It may actually be beneficial to order a kH buffer, I'd use something well renowned such as one used for cardina shrimp NOT a bottle of liquid chemical as sold by API.

I've searched for Seachem products - there's Equilibrium and Alkaline Buffer. Do you recommend either or both?

 

Oyster grit : don't take it out of the bag that would be very messy and pain in the rear to change when necessary. Just drop it where you can inside the bag and inside the filter.

Kh boosters, I've only used baking soda... Not easy to calculate and raises TDS more than necessary. It's been quite some time ago. I know that there are people in the shrimp world very happy with a number of products sold towards cardinas shrimps and they very specific demands. And essentially you working with rain water is very very similar to their remineralizing their RODI water. Might be worth getting a recommendation from someone running RODI water as to reliability and cost effectiveness.... Shrimp forum specifically some cardinas (tiger, bee, etc) not cherry shrimp are going to likely have some great experience and recommendations... I don't pay enough attention scrolling through but I think one named Salty Shrimp is fairly popular.

 

Oyster grit : don't take it out of the bag that would be very messy and pain in the rear to change when necessary. Just drop it where you can inside the bag and inside the filter.

Excellent that's what I thought.

Kh boosters, I've only used baking soda... Not easy to calculate and raises TDS more than necessary. It's been quite some time ago. I know that there are people in the shrimp world very happy with a number of products sold towards cardinas shrimps and they very specific demands. And essentially you working with rain water is very very similar to their remineralizing their RODI water. Might be worth getting a recommendation from someone running RODI water as to reliability and cost effectiveness.... Shrimp forum specifically some cardinas (tiger, bee, etc) not cherry shrimp are going to likely have some great experience and recommendations... I don't pay enough attention scrolling through but I think one named Salty Shrimp is fairly popular.

That's really good advice for where to learn more. What's mystifying me is our hospital tank has high pH with same water... realised the big tank doesn't have carbon in filter. Only wool, then black foam stuff then bio noods. I wonder if that's part of the problem....

 

Update: as I anticipated 10 fish were dead this morning. All the Danios and gourami. Rainbows ok but hiding. Pleco ok. Changed 50% of water without vacuuming & added Prime.

The difference in pH between our tanks is a mystery. I'm going to do a real pH test as well as kH on our rainwater, our bottled spring water, and the 50/50 mix I've been using before replacing any fish. Gonna stabilize those two metrics before any thing else.

 

What all is in your main tank?
What substrate?
What plants?
What decorations?
At this point with the difference between the hospital tank and the main one may suspect that there is something else causing this difference in pH.

Also with the pH dropping to 6 or lower you may effectively have killed off your cycle as quite a bit of good BB has problems existing in such low pH.
I would say the focus tight now is on raising your pH and keeping it stable. The oyster grit is a good start. You may also grab some cuttlebone (yes like the one they have birds chew on) and putting that in the tank. It will slowly dissolve over time and increaae your kH which will in turn help buffer and stabilize your pH.

 

What all is in your main tank?
What substrate?
What plants?
What decorations?

Yep fair questions we've considered. Fish stock listed above, but the rest are similar btwn tanks (intentionally). No live plants.

Big tank:
Only fake plants that came with it when we bought second hand. Same with gravel. Nothing but gravel substrate. Decorations are a large helicopter and a vase - helicopter came with tank, vase recently purchased from fish store. Have a scuba diver air thingy & air stone.

Hospital tank has same fake grass as in big tank. Decorations are fake barrels & fake anemone from fish store.

Gravel in hospital tank. Bought neon colored gravel for this one & mixed with gravel that looks exactly like the stuff in the big tank. None said they affected pH but one did say "helps pH" but didn't day how. ...

Also with the pH dropping to 6 or lower you may effectively have killed off your cycle as quite a bit of good BB has problems existing in such low pH.
I would say the focus tight now is on raising your pH and keeping it stable. The oyster grit is a good start. You may also grab some cuttlebone (yes like the one they have birds chew on) and putting that in the tank. It will slowly dissolve over time and increaae your kH which will in turn help buffer and stabilize your pH.

Awesome, thank you. I was briefly in mourning earlier today, then nearly decided to give up on having aquariums again. Traveling for NY Eve so spent most of drive thinking about pH & kH & why tanks could be different. Keep wondering about filter but that gravel ambiguity bothers me...

 

Hmm so all your decorations are plastic, that should not affect pH or kH.
Limestone rocks are sometimes used I aquaria as decorations which also have the added benefit of hardening your water.
All your plants are silk or plastic. Unless they are silk from the 60s or earlier when they used different dyes (some of which do in fact affect pH) then you should be fine with those not bothering anything.
Your gravel is questionable. Being as we don't know what it's sourced from we don't know if it could be a source of an issue or not. However I rather doubt it as low pH is your problem not high pH. I've seen folks who unintentionally had fluorite gravel before which tends to buffer pH up. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
Was the gravel in the main tank taken out before this restart and throughly rinsed? There is the passing thought that your tank could have cultured some anaerobic bacteria during its sitting time that is affecting the rest of your good bb colony. But even then I find that would be secondary as it has nothing to do with pH or kH.

The filter media, were any of the sponges reused after it sat empty? Or was it only the noods? I'm wondering if there could have been any breakdown of anything in the filter causing this pH issue but I'm admittedly running low on guesses at this point.

Having baselines for what your rain water and bottled water are at will be helpful though.
Also, not sure on your locals laws or area, but are there any local lakes, rivers or ponds you could take water from to use in your tank? You state you are rural so at this point I would be looking at all available water options for the fish. I would take samples from any possible draw sites and testing them to compile a list of stats to see what your options are.

 

Your gravel is questionable. Being as we don't know what it's sourced from we don't know if it could be a source of an issue or not. However I rather doubt it as low pH is your problem not high pH. I've seen folks who unintentionally had fluorite gravel before which tends to buffer pH up. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

The problem in the main tank is low pH but the hospital tank where the questionable gravel we bought is has high pH. Is there an easy way to check if the gravel is affecting that tank?

Was the gravel in the main tank taken out before this restart and throughly rinsed? There is the passing thought that your tank could have cultured some anaerobic bacteria during its sitting time that is affecting the rest of your good bb colony. But even then I find that would be secondary as it has nothing to do with pH or kH.

Yes, our girls rinsed the gravel out when we resurrected the main tank.

The filter media, were any of the sponges reused after it sat empty? Or was it only the noods? I'm wondering if there could have been any breakdown of anything in the filter causing this pH issue but I'm admittedly running low on guesses at this point.

Our girld rinsed the wool and black plastic-like foam media in the filter during the resurrection BUT not the noods or the plastic filter housing itself. I tend to agree we had oodles of anaerobic bacteria after it was sitting with water for years unused. That's partially why I decided to do a 25% nood change tbh... then disaster ensues. Sigh.

Agree this is not straight forward to figure out which is why I finally joined this forum rather than just stalking it as I had been, lolz. The pH difference is bizarre and makes no logical sense to me at this point.

Also, not sure on your locals laws or area, but are there any local lakes, rivers or ponds you could take water from to use in your tank? You state you are rural so at this point I would be looking at all available water options for the fish. I would take samples from any possible draw sites and testing them to compile a list of stats to see what your options are.

Yep we have a few rivers but being rural means dairy farms with nitrates so I would be cautious but that's probably a good option to consider. You've been super helpful btw. I was nearing the stage of giving up but now I have a plan...

 

To test and see if the gravel is affecting pH take water from the same source, test it for pH kH and gH to establish your baseline. Then add the same amount of water to two glass or plastic cups. Add a handful of the questionable gravel from that tank to one cup but not the other. Retest the water in both cups in three days and again in one week. If they stay the same, it is not the gravel. If there's a difference, then we know the gravel is part of the issue.

The wool you mention in the filter, is this filter floss? If so I would probably chuck it and put new floss in just because that stuff does tend to break down over time and need to be replaced. It's good at catching gunk and grit but eventually it becomes the gunk.

High nitrates may not be too terrible if the rest of the water parameters are good. Just get yourself some tubs set up outside (I am assuming you don't freeze in those parts?) with some fast growing floating or emersed plants. Thing like water hyacinth, red root floaters or pothos. These plants are great at gobbling up nitrates. I often will put water here in tubs and let the plants pull the ammonia and nitrates out for several days to a week before then taking that water and using it for my tanks. I kept guppies in the tubs for mosquito control. Their bioload was just more food for the plants and I could regularly take water that came out of the tap testing between 20-40 nitrates and .5 ammonia and et it sit for four days and retest and it would be zeroes across the board. Floating g plants are excellent nitrate sponges like that. It may be an option for you.

 

Update: somehow our 2 rainbow fish & pleco are still alive. Got back home last night (36 hours after last 50% water change/ prime dose) and ammonia reading 2! Did another 50% change & prime dose.

This morning, ammonia greater than 1, did another 50% change & prime dose. Reading about 0.5 now.

Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5ppm (lowest ever, not happy because I think it means bio filter not working)

Put oyster grit in filter & ordered kH/gH buffer because pH still reading 6 (my hunch after all these discussions is indeed that pH is actually lower than 6 & killing the BB so the tank isn't able to stabilise biofilter).

Might lose the fish but need to get pH under control if we're ever going to get tank parameters liveable for fish in the future.

To test and see if the gravel is affecting pH take water from the same source, test it for pH kH and gH to establish your baseline. Then add the same amount of water to two glass or plastic cups. Add a handful of the questionable gravel from that tank to one cup but not the other. Retest the water in both cups in three days and again in one week. If they stay the same, it is not the gravel. If there's a difference, then we know the gravel is part of the issue.

Excellent, will do!

The wool you mention in the filter, is this filter floss? If so I would probably chuck it and put new floss in just because that stuff does tend to break down over time and need to be replaced. It's good at catching gunk and grit but eventually it becomes the gunk.

I think it's filter floss... it looks similar. Will replacing it get rid of yet more BB? Can I cut new pads, rinse in tank water & then put them on top of or underneath the old stuff to mitigate that?

The last time I rinsed out those when we still had live fish in the tank (2013), I didn't use old tank water and the tank filter crashed. I now reckon that's because our BB are fragile given our pH/kH/gH issues with the rainwater because most fish tank experts tell me that alone shouldn't have crashed the filter...?

 

I think it's filter floss... it looks similar. Will replacing it get rid of yet more BB? Can I cut new pads, rinse in tank water & then put them on top of or underneath the old stuff to mitigate that?

The last time I rinsed out those when we still had live fish in the tank (2013), I didn't use old tank water and the tank filter crashed. I now reckon that's because our BB are fragile given our pH/kH/gH issues with the rainwater because most fish tank experts tell me that alone shouldn't have crashed the filter...?

Pretty sure the floss contains a large amount of BB. If you're worried about losing BB, you can take out some tank water (don't worry, the water doesn't contain a lot of BB- most of it is in the filter) and gently clean off all the dirty particles on the floss in the tank water. You should actually be able to do this until the floss literally falls apart

Hope this helps

 

I pull my filter floss when it's gunked up and toss it but it can easily be rinsed as stated above with some tank water. And yes best way to prepare to change sponges from a filter is to add another sponge on top or behind the current one, then what I do is replace slowly by removing about a third to half the sponge (depending on how much other media is in the filter) at a time leaving a week or two before cutting off or removing another portion. I always let the new media sit for 2-4 weeks before removing any of the old media.

Might be worth looking into switching from all sponges to some ceramic media or sintered glass media in a portion of the filter too. That kind of biomedia holds BB very very well, needs less maintenance and essentially never needs to be replaced. That makes swapping sponges or floss much less nerve wracking.

 

Might be worth looking into switching from all sponges to some ceramic media or sintered glass media in a portion of the filter too. That kind of biomedia holds BB very very well, needs less maintenance and essentially never needs to be replaced. That makes swapping sponges or floss much less nerve wracking.

Thank you for confirming about putting new media in with old for a few weeks. That makes complete sense given how sensitive the tank and fish are to change.

My filter media are:
Wool filter floss on top directly under water spouts; then
Black bio sponge; then
Bio noods (ceramic)

I have new AR850 filter cartridges with carbon etc sitting here in case my other media aren't sufficient, but haven't dared use them lest I kill off what few BB are likely to be left in my tank...

Do you have any thoughts on my current media? I'm very keen to get this back on track. At this stage I'll start with pH, kH, gH tests & trying not to kill the 3 fish we have left...

 

Do you have any thoughts on my current media? I'm very keen to get this back on track. At this stage I'll start with pH, kH, gH tests & trying not to kill the 3 fish we have left...

Current media is fine. Don't change anything in the tank unless absolutely necessary, follow the cleaning instructions and water change ideas listed above and focus on getting the kH up a bit so your pH is stable.

Your biggest problem isn't a low pH, it's a fluctuating pH. That needs to be rectified before anything else is going to stabilize. So... Have you done anything other than oyster grit yet to stabilize it? I fear that the oyster grit isn't the best route with essentially no buffer in your water, it isn't dissolving fast enough to be effective. An additional buffer is going to be a huge benefit to you and your tank. Oyster grit should help keep it stable at a kH as low as 3° but with no kH your tank pH is diving to quickly. The difference with the hospital tank is that it's not stocked, or stocked much less heavily than the main tank... Ammonia produced by the fish is going to be contributing to the dive (cycled or not acid is acid).

I personally would do the daily or every other day water changes of 50% ish (remove loose waste and vacuum small sections each time) based on test results until I chose and started stabilizing that pH by raising the kH. Remember to make that change slowly like 1/2 degree every other day or slower... This way the fish have a chance to adapt to the changing parameters with stress, illness or death being much less likely than if you raised it all of a sudden... Honestly I'd personally do about 1/2 degrees every three to four days totalling about a degree a week.

A clean filter helps. Clean substrate helps. But clean water is your key ingredient to maintaing your parameters and fish health. The more you change the less likely you are to know what actually worked... Fix the kH and everything else will fall into place.

 

Your biggest problem isn't a low pH, it's a fluctuating pH. That needs to be rectified before anything else is going to stabilize. So... Have you done anything other than oyster grit yet to stabilize it? I fear that the oyster grit isn't the best route with essentially no buffer in your water, it isn't dissolving fast enough to be effective. An additional buffer is going to be a huge benefit to you and your tank. Oyster grit should help keep it stable at a kH as low as 3° but with no kH your tank pH is diving to quickly. The difference with the hospital tank is that it's not stocked, or stocked much less heavily than the main tank... Ammonia produced by the fish is going to be contributing to the dive (cycled or not acid is acid).

The SeaChem alkaline buffer (raises pH & kH) is on its way to me along with Equilibrium which helps gH. Trying to find where I can get cuttlebone that will fit in my filter.

I personally would do the daily or every other day water changes of 50% ish (remove loose waste and vacuum small sections each time) based on test results until I chose and started stabilizing that pH by raising the kH. Remember to make that change slowly like 1/2 degree every other day or slower... This way the fish have a chance to adapt to the changing parameters with stress, illness or death being much less likely than if you raised it all of a sudden... Honestly I'd personally do about 1/2 degrees every three to four days totalling about a degree a week.

I totally agree... I'll do research to make sure I'm doing it slowly enough. (Then again if the fish die given the ammonia is persistently 0.5 or higher atm, I can just fix everything straight away... but that's pretty ruthless & the remaining fish have names & are my faves.)

A clean filter helps. Clean substrate helps. But clean water is your key ingredient to maintaing your parameters and fish health. The more you change the less likely you are to know what actually worked... Fix the kH and everything else will fall into place.

Yep. thanks. Advice like that keeps me from panicking & doing too much to know what's working. As long as I have live fish, I'm only changing one parameter at a time & slowly.

My current theory is to go back to using 50/50 spring water/tap(rain) water during changes. We ran out of spring water so the last 2 changes have been 100% tap (rain). But I'll do that after buffering only if buffering doesn't slowly work.

As a random aside, I'm pretty sure the ammonia has caused the rainbow fish some metal disability. They are skittish to the extreme when not hiding & keep slamming themselves against the tank sides. I feel like a monster. We named one Bowie & the other Big Gay Al. You didn't need to know that, but now you do

 

Cuttlefish bone is generally available inbty bird section of any pet store realistically you likely don't need it but it can help with gH. It also breaks up really easy and is a nuisance to get to sink lol I have a chunk in any tank that has shrimp because I allow pest snails with assassin snail control in most of them I have the cuttlefish bone to be certain I don't have an issue with a bunch of hatching and molting and I have very high gH.

Getting the buffer into the water will help. You should have no need to buy spring water. Thing with buying spring water is first off even though it's not a big expense it certainly adds up very quickly. Second and I think most importantly. If you change brands parameters change, sometimes even the same brand isn't consistent as many come from multiple water sources so there's huge potential for the water to be doing that constant change your trying to avoid anyway. And obviously if the store is out of your brand or when you are rural like myself you are out and can't exactly make a "quick trip" to the store or a different store to get what you need things go south.

Good news is that the frequency of the water changes being every day or two your fish are going to have some stability in parameters as the change is keeping the swing from being severe!

Also, your fish names are great, I like them

 

Getting the buffer into the water will help. You should have no need to buy spring water. Thing with buying spring water is first off even though it's not a big expense it certainly adds up very quickly. Second and I think most importantly. If you change brands parameters change, sometimes even the same brand isn't consistent as many come from multiple water sources so there's huge potential for the water to be doing that constant change your trying to avoid anyway. And obviously if the store is out of your brand or when you are rural like myself you are out and can't exactly make a "quick trip" to the store or a different store to get what you need things go south.

Good advice. I'll focus on the buffer of our tap water. Will get cuttle stone and be wary of how messy it is. Quite right about the joys of rural living

We just bought 6 x 15 L containers of Tongariro spring water (that's a volcano on the North Island of NZ), so we have an emergency supply. I've got the spring water and our tap water set up with air stones so I can do true pH and kH tests. As expected, the spring water is 5-6º kH & 7.2+ pH initial test without air stone. But this is now mostly academic so I know what's up with the hospital tank being so different. Hospital tank kH is 3-4º kH and 7.8 pH... And I'm pretty sure it's because we didn't do 50/50 spring/tap but more like 65/35 spring... so that means I need to start getting more tap water in there so the Hospital tank is closer to the big tank.

Thanks so much for your advice and encouragement! I'm going to look up assassin shrimp because they sound awesome!

 

Good luck!

By the way, Seachem makes a product for maintaining a steady pH. I recently purchased Seachem Neutral Regulator which keeps my ph steady at 7. Might be worth a look!

 

Cuttlefish bone is generally available inbty bird section of any pet store realistically you likely don't need it but it can help with gH. It also breaks up really easy and is a nuisance to get to sink lol...

Quick question: would putting the cuttlebone into a mesh bag in the filter like the oyster grit be an option or does it need to be in the tank itself? If it needs to be in the tank, can I use a mesh bag to help it sink & stay tidier?

Once I stabilize our big tank, I reckon I'm going to start a thread about "Using Rainwater for your Aquarium" & offer my experience with all your collective helpful advice credited. I'll check to see if one already exists. I got phenomenally bad advice when we started in 2013 from a friend who breeds guppies & several fish stores that our rainwater was unlikely to be causing any issues...smh

At least no one told me to use bleach like I've seen in another thread on this forum...

 

Quick question: would putting the cuttlebone into a mesh bag in the filter like the oyster grit be an option or does it need to be in the tank itself? If it needs to be in the tank, can I use a mesh bag to help it sink & stay tidier?

Nah just rinse it. I should have been more specific, it breaks easily as in if you only want a chunk you can snap it off with your fingers... It holds up well in the aquarium. you can put it anywhere you want to, when mine FINALLY stop floating input them in the tank behind decor where the creatures can pick at it of they want.

 

Update: I'm cautiously relieved! Our biggest remaining fish - Big Gay Al the rainbow fish - ate today for the first time in 5 days!

Did another 50% water change with Prime. Ammonia still over 0.5 (closer to 1) after change.... going to pet store for cuttlebone.

 

You can add Prime daily to temporarily detox that Ammonia. So long as it remains under 1ppm a double dose does the trick! It only lasts between 24-48 hours so daily dosing between water changes would be needed. And if course dose when doing the change as well.

 

You can add Prime daily to temporarily detox that Ammonia. So long as it remains under 1ppm a double dose does the trick! It only lasts between 24-48 hours so daily dosing between water changes would be needed. And if course dose when doing the change as well.

That's what I've been doing. I dose it when changing water every 24 hours when I wake up & then again at night before bed so it's getting a dose 12 hours. That wasn't enough to save all the other fish but hopefully these 3 can survive. They aren't happy but they're alive.

 

If you are dosing every 12 hours just use a regular dose rather than a double so you don't end up getting your tank smelling like Sulphur lol. I've never had it happen but I've seen others post it. Then again maybe they were dosing way to much to start....

 

If you are dosing every 12 hours just use a regular dose rather than a double so you don't end up getting your tank smelling like Sulphur lol. I've never had it happen but I've seen others post it. Then again maybe they were dosing way to much to start....

Yep I only double dosed after being away 36 hours totaling 3 doses for both 24 hours immediately following my return. Smelled like sulfur with very first 1 dose but then normal since & only doing single dose every 12 hours.

 

Ok. I'm 24 hours into my true pH (&kH) test. Fascinating:

Initial test without airstones:
Spring water:
pH read 7.2 on low pH test & 7.8 on high pH test (bizarre, I may have issues reading colours)
kH turned yellow/green at 5º & yellow at 6º

Tap (rain) water:
pH 6 (or lower)
kH 1º (mostly clear, but yellow when you look down through tube)

After 24 hours airstones:
Spring:
pH 8.2 (!!!)
kH 6º

Tap (rain):
pH 6.4 - 6.5
kH 1º

Will the naturally low kH of our rainwater man even the true pH test will fluctuate? Makes logical sense if so

 

PH can change a little on any test yes. Comes from variances in where exactly on that line the miniscus of the fluid hits. Out test kits are far from a perfect and precise measurement but they are accurate enough for what we generally need. Think if you have one extra drop or two of water or one less drop or two of water in a 5ml tube and 5 ml is approximately 50 drops of water.... It's actually fairly significant when looking at ppm or pH measurements. If you don't have your regents generating perfectly formed drops because there's a buildup, your not holding perfectly upside down squeezing a little harder or softer, didn't quite shake enough, etc it also plays a part... So yes it's fine and normal. I've always went by whatever is further from neutral (7.0) that way you know you're covered.


Edit: duty called lol had to work...
The fluctuations your seeing is likely from any extra gasses coming off the water from falling and running through the tap. Co2 lowers your pH, it's a long complicated explanation but it does.... PH isn't usually the issue hence why we test for kH and gH that causes pH fluctuations, and aerate water a day or two and test pH for true pH values, blah blah....

Anyway co2 injected, high tech, planted tanks experience a daily pH drop that isn't harmful to the fish/shrimp when done appropriately and it raises back up overnight when co2 depletes... More complex science stuff if you want to read into pH and co2 and why it's an interesting relationship.

 

Think if you have one extra drop or two of water or one less drop or two of water in a 5ml tube and 5 ml is approximately 50 drops of water.... It's actually fairly significant when looking at ppm or pH measurements. If you don't have your regents generating perfectly formed drops because there's a buildup, your not holding perfectly upside down squeezing a little harder or softer, didn't quite shake enough, etc it also plays a part... So yes it's fine and normal. I've always went by whatever is further from neutral (7.0) that way you know you're covered.

OMG! I thought I was being waaaaay too anal trying to get the 5ml measurement exact. Of course I wasn't being anal enough. Ok. Gonna buy an eye dropper now. And shake the test liquid the same amount... I aways try to hold it vehicle but some liquids come out super fast and others need harder squeezing... right. Will take the "worst" measurement to play it safe. Did you learn all this as you went btw?

 

I edited my last post lol was interrupted hit send before I'd finished.

Did you learn all this as you went btw?

I learned some through mistakes, some through science nerd knowledge and a LOT through tons of time researching various aspects of fish keeping through the years.

Several years back I started plants in my tanks for something new and have recently started trying to challenge myself in that way while I get accustomed to my new water parameters after a big move and I've learned a tremendous amount of information I didn't know even mattered about how all these things interact along with ferts and different compounds and what actually is in tap water and why exact composition can actually matter lol my pretty hard water (pH 8.2, kH 10, gH 15-16) has been quite the lesson in water chemistry in finite detail to have successful planted tank... I'm finally I think dine ironing out the kinks and deficiencies and quirky weird chemistry things and running a couple more months then adding co2 and hopefully getting a nice dense jungle effect lol

Lots of reading, talking to people, and staring at reports and ingredients and then reading and talking to people more until it lines out for my specific needs. But, I love to expand my knowledge and enjoy the challenges and successes and failures lol. Knowing that I know exactly enough to be dangerous is half the battle lol. Everyone's tank is different and everyone's solution is different but the approaches to identifying the issues are generally pretty similar.

 

I edited my last post lol was interrupted hit send before I'd finished.

Thanks for letting me know. My step daughter is learning about pH and kH and CO2 in chemistry rn & I've been helping her a bit on compounds & elements so I'll grab her book and see what I can find. Fun with refresher when you're 20 years out of hs lolz.

So given the pH of the tank is so much lower than our tap water true pH I'm really glad for the advice on kH & gH to stabilise because our tap pH is pretty close to ideal if we can indeed stabilise it.

Lots of reading, talking to people, and staring at reports and ingredients and then reading and talking to people more until it lines out for my specific needs. But, I love to expand my knowledge and enjoy the challenges and successes and failures lol. Knowing that I know exactly enough to be dangerous is half the battle lol. Everyone's tank is different and everyone's solution is different but the approaches to identifying the issues are generally pretty similar.

I'm so glad I'm a science nerd about thus stuff! We don't know many people with tanks locally and the one I knew gave me the phenomenally bad advice so I'm banking on my own research and this forum plus my own expense through trial & error. We too love challenges so in addition to the tank we took up SCUBA in 2013 & now have our AOWD certs and 35 dives under our belts. Same requirement for science & maths skills. Both hobbies are centered around aquatic life

Good to know we can eventually advise others like you! We'll keep at it as the freshwater fish tank is certainly proving more challenging than or cat, chooks (kiwI slang for chickens) & new red eared turtles combined. <

 

Update. The buffers are taking ages to arrive (my local doesn't stock brands I trust), so I added cuttlebone & some of the spring water to get the pH above <6 so my BB could live. Here's how that's going:

165L tank.

2 days ago, Morning test:
Ammonia between 1 & 2
pH barely yellow, <\= 6
kH nearly clear 1º

50% water change.
Added 13 L spring water & Prime.
Ammonia <1
pH <6.4
kH 1º

Yesterday, morning test:
Ammonia >1 but much <2

50% change with 7L spring water & prime
Ammonia >0.5 but <1
pH 6.5
kH 1º

Today, morning test:
Ammonia 0.5 (best since the disaster)

50% water change with 8L spring water & prime
Ammonia 0.25 (YUSSSS)
pH >6.5 <\= 6.6
kH 1º

Pleco & rainbows alive & got a bit more active last night. Barely eating but Big Gay Al is eating a tiny bit. Don't think Bowie had eaten for 6 days though. Haven't seen it eat at least & hides when I try to feed a few flakes.

So, my plan is to stop with spring water once the buffers arrive & I start treatment. But I think my hunch about the pH killing off BB may have been right. I'll check nitrites today because we may start seeing increase as BB finally start cycling. Until 2 days ago, nitrites 0ppm & nitrates <5ppm, so I figured my BB were dead. Until this disaster, nitrates between 10 - 20ppm

 

Remember to make that change slowly like 1/2 degree every other day or slower... This way the fish have a chance to adapt to the changing parameters with stress, illness or death being much less likely than if you raised it all of a sudden... Honestly I'd personally do about 1/2 degrees every three to four days totalling about a degree a week.
... Fix the kH and everything else will fall place.

Update: I was so careful! Had my electronic scales & calculator!! I added less than 1/4 of the recommended amount of Equilibrium & Alkaline Buffer to one of my 10L buckets near the end of the 50% change today... and it spiked the tank pH waaay more than it should have for the fish!

They're alive but hiding... not happy fish. Big Gay Al looked to be having a shaking fit briefly!

pH was around 6.5 to start today (because of the spring water I've added during my 50% changes the last 3 days). Now that the buffer arrived, I'm using only our tap water.

After adding the buffer & Equilibrium, now the pH somewhere between 6.8 - 7.2 (depending on the light we use to read colour). I hope they live. Really worried about our pleco who prefers pH below 7...

On the bright side, kH is up to 2º (exactly where I wanted it to get to) and gH is between 2º - 3º which is what I wanted. Maybe I should have gone with the acid buffer / alkaline buffer combo according to the conversion chart to raise pH more gradually...but someone else on this forum who made a lot of sense and uses the product said it wasn't necessary. Sigh.

Also. Now I'm terrified about tomorrow's water change. Ammonia <0.25ppm after today's change, but not 0ppm. Which means I'll probably need to continue the 50% changes. I'll test in the morning & decide if I wait another 24 hours so I'm changing out 50% every other day.

But! I'll either need to maintain a pH higher than the fish prefer OR buy Acid Buffer to slowly lower it to about 6.6 - 6.8... yet more changes for my poor fish.

Final point. I realise what I've done wrong. I didn't do enough of my OWN research & I should have used 1/8 not 1/4 of the dose, and used Acid Buffer with alkaline buffer.

Incredibly, it's been nearly 4 hours and the fish still live! All of them.

Your gravel is questionable. Being as we don't know what it's sourced from we don't know if it could be a source of an issue or not. However I rather doubt it as low pH is your problem not high pH. I've seen folks who unintentionally had fluorite gravel before which tends to buffer pH up. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I thought you might like to know that I completed my true pH test and then added a handful of the suspicious gravel. Bingo. The lying bag it came in simply stated "helps pH" but detailed nothing & sure enough, it raised our tap pH from 6.4-6.5 to nearly 7!!!

 

I just wanted to say first thing, yay! You're going in the right direction! The kH change is the shock to the fish not the pH, pH is just a relative measurement. Think of it something along the lines of our air pressure randomly increasing... That's kind of like kH to the fish, and a full degree is significant especially considering it just doubled on them but just maintain that kH until after they have settled with it a couple days. Try to raise by a half a degree next time

Next the Pleco, don't worry about its preferred pH unless he's from the wild. A assure you being tank raised he's much more used to a pH of 7 or higher as he's many many generations away from those acidic water wild relatives. Stable is much much more important than proper and almost any fish has an easier time adapting to a higher pH (given kH and gH aren't sky high) than a lower one. Kh and gH provides the minerals that they require for osmoregulation. A lack of the minerals is much more quickly detrimental than an excess of them. If you were to put live bearers like say guppies in that water they likely would quickly develop issues, have a dramatically shortened lifespan if they didn't pass within a few weeks and fry would likely either never happen or perish almost immediately. They require the minerals from hard water in order to regulate themselves appropriately and grow/survive. Guppies can survive in less than hard water but acidic water is another story for most if not all live bearing fish that I'm aware of.

Also you've just changed the TDS from near nothing to who knows what which can also shock fish. It's a slightly easier adjustment than the kH but still a fairly dramatic shock. I've no idea how seachem products change TDS but I know many name brands use compounds that absolutely sky rocket the TDS... Especially liquid types hence why I recommended to avoid them.... Seachem is relatively well spoken of and in powder form I believe so I am sure it was a much smaller TDS change than otherwise expected with the name brands I'm just not tried it myself to know how much it could have been.

 

Also you've just changed the TDS from near nothing to who knows what which can also shock fish. It's a slightly easier adjustment than the kH but still a fairly dramatic shock. I've no idea how seachem products change TDS but I know many name brands use compounds that absolutely sky rocket the TDS... Especially liquid types hence why I recommended to avoid them.... Seachem is relatively well spoken of and in powder form I believe so I am sure it was a much smaller TDS change than otherwise expected with the name brands I'm just not tried it myself to know how much it could have been.

Ok I'm going to look up TDS. It was SeaChem powder so hopefully I haven't shocked then enough to kill them.

My calculations were that I raised the kH by .75, but our testing kit isn't going to show that level. It just finally went blue with the first drop (always yellow to clear until now) and yellow with second. So maybe they'll live. I know I should have done half again now, but too late.

Do you think I should use acid buffer to gradually bring the pH to the 6.6-6.8 level? Or from your post, maintain where it is now as much as possible?

 

Don't use any more chemicals than necessary they all add to that TDS. Use only what you have to to get that kH up. The pH isn't going to be a problem once you stabilize it.

 

Don't use any more chemicals than necessary they all add to that TDS. Use only what you have to to get that kH up. The pH isn't going to be a problem once you stabilize it.

I AM SO RELIEVED! TODAY THE AMMONIA IS 0ppm !!!! I didn't need to change any water! STOKED! *dances*

Bowie & Big Gay Al are happy. Swimming around & they only hide when I approach the tank. A bit gutted but they'll come around. They both ate today. Not much but still.

Parameters:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate between 5ppm & 10ppm
pH 6.9
kH 2º
gH 2º

The only thing I noticed was overnight the pH, kH & gH seemed to go down slightly. The kH turned a much darker blue with the first drop yesterday an hour after adding the SeaChem whereas today it was just slightly blue. Same with gH. I'll keep monitoring though. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH especially sfsamm