Removing UGF

I've had my UGF and power filter running in conjunction for the last 11 days. I plan on removing the UGF next weekend. I'll move the fish and the power filter to a 10 gal tank while I remove the UGF.

Once the UGF has been removed, should I clean my gravel? It was real filthy at first but I've been vacuuming it every few days these past two weeks with my water changes to help get my nitrates down (they're down to 10 now, btw). So I figure my gravel <i>should</i> be pretty clean by now and I don't want to remove most of the beneficial bacteria by cleaning it.

Any other suggestions on removing UGF's?

 

Hopefully since you've been vacuuming the gravel a lot lately, it won't need a lot more cleaning, but if it still appears dirty once the ugf is removed, vacuum it again.

 

I suppose it depends on what you find when you take the UGF out. If it is still really dirty, it will probably need to be cleaned. Congratulations on the numbers, by the way. That is almost unbelievable considering where you were just a short time ago. Fantastic work on your part! Kudos!!! I'll bet your fish are happy little "flippers" about now.

Rose

 

Yes, what a difference a little effort and knowledge can make! Everything in my tank looks great now ;D

Gunnie and Rose, I was thinking the same thing about when I take out the UGF. With the amount of gravel vac'ing I've done recently I think the gravel is fairly clean but if it's a real mess when I take UGF then I'll give it some cleaning.

By the time I plan to take out the UGF my power filter will have been running for 3 weeks along with my UGF. Do you think that's sufficient time for the bacteria to take hold in my new filter media? I have the bio-cubes/carbon/sponge media in the filter now but from what I've read the carbon doesn't do much after the first day or so except being a media for bacteria. Would it be a good idea that when I take out the UGF I replace the carbon with some other media? Maybe just a mesh bag of my current gravel, or would there be comparable amounts of bacteria in both by now?

On another note, it looks like I'll be relocating the tank as well when I take out the UGF. I just got word that my uncle has a tank he wants to unload. I'm fairly certain that it's at least 55 gal, I'll find out the details this weekend.

mmm, MTS ;D

 

Make sure you temporarily house your fish when you take the ugf out. All those nasties being held down there will be freed and you don't want to make your fish sick by exposing them to it.

 

Congratulations on the new tank if you get it. Yes, MTS does hit all of us sooner or later. The carbon doesn't do much for building up the bacteria I think. It isn't much use unless you are having odor or you want to remove medication from your tank. The bio-cubes and sponge media are the important part when it comes to the bacteria. I wouldn't worry about the carbon at all. Some people don't use it at all. I use White Diamond that doesn't even contain carbon but helps keep ammonia from building up. I do keep the Marineland Carbon and White Diamond mix on hand in case I ever need to have medication removed from the tank, but other than that the small amount of carbon found in the filter cartridges from the Eclipse system, I usually remove. That way if I ever do need to medicate I don't need to change the filter before it is ready. I was wasting too many filters leaving it in. Since your tank was already cycled, you may have good luck with the new filter being ready. I had my new tank cycled with two filters (one cycled and one new) for about that long and had a very small amount of nitrite (.25) for about a week but with about 3 water changes (25%) it was gone, and all has been well since then. Getting the dirty filter out is well worth the effort, perhaps.
Once again, I congratulate you for all the effort you put forth in making your fish a decent and healthy place to live. You have accomplished a lot and I know it took a lot of work and perseverance on your part. You deserve a pat on the back.

Rose

 

I definitely plan on moving my fish and power filter to another tank while I remove the UGF.

No news yet on getting my uncles tank, I didn't see him this past weekend as I thought I would. Hopefully I'll talk to him tonight or tomorrow.

 

When I rip out my UGF I'm also thinking about replacing the gravel as well. I currently have a mix of black and white which doesn't look good, there's too much white. I want to change it to a more natural looking stone/gravel, would this be too much to change in tank at once? By removing the gravel at the same time of the UGF could I take out too much bacteria? Keep in mind my new power filter will have been running for a full 3 weeks when the UGF comes out.

BTW, if I were to replace the gravel I would bundle up some old gravel in stockings or something to place in the tank to help build up new bacteria on the new gravel.

What do you think, will it work?
Safe plan, procede
Caution you may get a mini-cycle
STOP NOW you're botching everything!!

 

When I rip out my UGF I'm also thinking about replacing the gravel as well.  I currently have a mix of black and white which doesn't look good, there's too much white.  I want to change it to a more natural looking stone/gravel, would this be too much to change in tank at once?  By removing the gravel at the same time of the UGF could I take out too much bacteria?  Keep in mind my new power filter will have been running for a full 3 weeks when the UGF comes out.

BTW, if I were to replace the gravel I would bundle up some old gravel in stockings or something to place in the tank to help build up new bacteria on the new gravel.

What do you think, will it work? 
Safe plan, procede
Caution you may get a mini-cycle
STOP NOW you're botching everything!!

I don't know about everyone else, but I vote "Safe plan, Procede!". With the two running in conjunction for 3 weeks and the bundling of gravel for a while, how could you go wrong and the fish may like a little redecorating. I know mine usually like a change once in a while and it sounds like that gravel has been there a while.

Have fun!

Rose

 

I'm with Chickadee. With that new filter running for 3 weeks, you should be fine with maybe a short minI cycle. It will be a nice change for you to change the gravel out. Make sure that when you get ready to do this, that your filter for the tank continues to run until you transfer it over. If it doesn't run for about 30 minutes your bacteria will start to die off.

 

Hmmm, I lost a Rosy Barb last night but I don't think it was due to water conditions. I could tell he wasn't doing well because he was breathing rapidly and then started hanging around the heater with it's face pointed straight down. I found on the intake tube this morning

All of the other fish are acting normally and I tested all of my levels this afternoon and they are all okay. Nitrates were around 20 but since I'll basically be breaking down the tank tomorrow to remove the UGF I'm holding off on a water change.

In preparation for tomorrow I have completely set up a 10 gallon tank but it's not cycled yet. Right now it's full with the filter is running, I know it's not doing anything but empty tanks are sad.

My plan for tomorrow is to empty half of the water that's in the 10 gallon now and replace it with water from the 20 gallon tank, should I do more or less or none at all?

Next, move my decorations to 10 gallon along with some gravel (in stockings) from the 20 gallon tank. Move the filter from the 20 to the 10 so my bacteria don't expire.

Now the fish need to be moved, what would be the best way to move the fish? Net'em and drop'em in? Will they need to acclimate to the water (everything is the same as the current tank except nitrates ~10ppm lower in the 10 gallon)?

Then rip out the UGF and remaining gravel from the 20 and clean up any funk that's left behind.

Then put in the new (natural looking ;D) gravel (I know, rinse very well before adding) and refill the tank. When refilling the tank should I use all new water or should I save some tank water to use when refilling?

Okay now the 20 is full so back go the decorations and filter, again how should I introduce the fish back to the 20?

Now the 20 is completely redone and everyone is happy!!! I'm going to leave the stockings of old gravel in the 10 to help seed the tank with bacteria and then continue to cycle the tank fishless style.

Is there anything I'm missing???

 

Water carries very little bacteria and usually when you get fish from another source they recommend not to add the water. Unless some of the more experienced folk recommend using old water, I would recommend all new water since you are going to use old decorations and some of the old gravel (in stockings) as those are the things other than the filter itself that actually carry the beneficial bacteria. I have done 100% water changes before when I was especially concerned about the water quality of the tank for some reason and it did not hurt the fish. It isn't something to do often at all, but these fish have been through a lot and to start them out with a compleltely new and clean environment would probably make them very happy. Also you don't know how much of the gunk is still going to be floating around in that water. It is amazing how much there can be and you won't even see it until you dump it.

Rose

 

Thanks Rose, that makes sense using new water.

How about moving the fish between tanks? Since my tank water and the new water in the other tank are about the same I would guess I could just net them and then release them in the other tank?

 

Yep as long as you move the new filter and have the used gravel the same way you had planned and the new tank is the same size and the water parameters are the same. And the temp is about the samel ''Same filter" and not out of the previous tank for more than 30 minutes so the bacteria don't start to die. A lot to ask but worth it since you did so much to get the tank cycled in the first place don't you think? Also the decorations should be washed in used tank water no matter how gunky so they don' lose the bacteria on theml Don't really scrub then just enough enough to get them presentable. Your alge eater will take care of the rest. If you don't don't have an algae eater I suggest a couple of otocincylnclus (pronounced o-toe-SIN-clus) I have 5 have in my tanks and they are adorable and really get the job done.

well I just got up and cannot spell and writ woth a darn so I will close for now

Rose

 

Current setup: 55gal tank w/ magnum 350 cannister (microfilter media) and UGF.

I am planning to transition to a more advanced filtration setup; some of my fish don't like the surface currents created by the UGF. here is my plan. i'm fairly new at this, so bear with me.

New setup:
sponge pre-filter ->
magnum 350 cannister w/ carbon media ->
TMC V2 600F fluidized sand bed filter ->
terminator 5W uv sterilizer

step 1: add the fluidized sand bed & UV sterilizer
step 2: cannister gets 50% charcoal, 50% substrate from UGF
step 3: wait a few weeks (how long???) for the fluidized sand filter to build up bacteria
step 4: remove substrate (good way to do this w/ minimum stress to fish?)
step 5: remove UGF
step 6: 50% water change
step 7: bleach, rinse & dechlorinate substrate
step 8: re-introduce substrate

I have heard that pulling up the UGF can introduce a LOT of into the water & wreak havoc w/ levels. some have advised that I remove the fish during this process. unfortunately, I have a LOT of fish w/ no good place for them to go......

I am hoping that the UV sterilizer will kill off most waterborne bacteria & help with the process. am I missing anything? thanks for the help!

kevin

 

I would absolutely not bleach the substrate - it's just unnecessary.

Yes, removing an UGF will foul up the water - but not with anything that isn't already in the tank. The filter will clear the water quickly. I would not worry.

 

Welcome to FishLore!

I agree about the bleaching. Not only is it unnecessary, but if you fail to remove all the bleach it will be harmful to your fish. I also wouldn't put substrate in the canister, nor do I think you need that much carbon, if any at all. Carbon isn't necessary; some members use it but others (such as myself) don't. In your canister you'll want a lot of porous filter media like sponges and ceramic rings and such.

Here's what I would do:

First, I would set up the canister if you haven't already. Fill it with good filter media. Let it seed for a month. (This is assuming your tank is cycled, which it might not be, since UGFs dint have filter media, though there is likely bacteria living in the substrate.) After a month has passed,

1. Fill five gallon buckets with water and transfer any fish to the buckets.
2. Remove any decorations.
3. Remove the UGF, leaving the substrate.
4. Thoroughly vacuum the substrate until the tank is empty.
5. Refill the tank.
6. Turn on the filter, let it run for a few minutes.
7. Acclimate and transfer the fish.

 

I would just leave the ugf in place, if the lift tubes bother you , you should be able to pull them up without disturbing the substate.

An alternative would be to continue to use the undergravel but to switch to using powerhead to pull the water through.

 

thanks everyone for the input!

@kinezumi89 - you mention not using that much carbon. the fluidized sand filter will be my bio media. would I still need ceramic rings or something to that effect in the cannister? what is the purpose of the cannister in my setup if my fluidized sand is bio?

 

I have to respectfully disagree. All UGFs do is pull the detritus - fish waste and uneaten food - to the bottom of the tank where it can't be removed. There is surely a ton if crud under there, certainly not helping with the water quality. It's definitely got to go

 

I agree - its an antiquated filtration system.

 

I have to respectfully disagree. All UGFs do is pull the detritus - fish waste and uneaten food - to the bottom of the tank where it can't be removed. There is surely a ton if crud under there, certainly not helping with the water quality. It's definitely got to go

Hello; Interesting comment. I started using UGF over 50 years ago. They were the most common filter system available. I used them for several decades then slowly switched to not using them as practical and affordable filter systems became available. I have in the last few years begun using the UGF again, usually in conjunction with a HOB.

I do not find the UGF system to have the problems so often mentioned on these forums. This discussion took place on another forum some months ago. In addition to myself several others also, to one degree or another, refuted much of the claimed negatives associated with UGF operation. They can be operated without the problems so many have mentioned. A UGF is a tool when run correctly will provide good results.

I have had the experience of breaking down a tank and finding a buildup of detritus/mulm under the plate of UGF's. I have also taken down tanks with other filtration systems to find the substrate loaded with the same and often worse volumes of mulm/detritus. What I eventually determined was that the way I ran my tanks that make a difference.

I have broken down tanks with UGF in place for years and found little to no buildup under the plates. Like any other tool/system in use around tanks it largely depends on how a person handles the operation of such systems.

I setup a tank with a surviving UGF some months ago to retest my contentions. If I survive long enough I will report on how this setup fares in a few years. For now I rely on personal experience with UGF's of at least three plus decades as a base for my comments. Should the discussion continue here I may be able to go back to and find the discussion that took place on the other forum and post a link. This will depend on my limited computer skills to a degree.
I have run many tanks with and without UGF and do know that success can be had either way. It is not an either/or situation. You will not necessarily go wrong with whatever method used for filtration. I know that for many the UGF's are considered outdated. Like most other things, when operated properly, a UGF can give good results.

Good luck with removing the UGF. I would likely simply leave it in place and operate it along with the additional filter systems until the tank gets to the point of needing to be taken down

 

I have been using UG filters for many, many, many years. I use UG filters with canisters, bio wheels and in two tanks with power heads. I have thriving live plants in all tanks. The tanks are established at 10 years, 8 years, and 5 years. I have never understood why people speak so poorly of them. But if you feel that you really must stop using them I would just pull the stacks. That is of course unless you plan to go to the advanced substrate for the harder to raise plants.

 

I have come across many UGF's that were horrific. The nastiest tanks I have ever seen have had UGF's. Now they were most certainly neglected by their owners but I think there is a much greater chance of having issues with them.

One thing that I don't think any of you can't deny is that they are going to trap nitrates. At least other filters are easy to clean.

I do not see the point of getting a UGF in the first place, there is no cost savings in it.

 

I have to respectfully disagree. All UGFs do is pull the detritus - fish waste and uneaten food - to the bottom of the tank where it can't be removed. There is surely a ton if crud under there, certainly not helping with the water quality. It's definitely got to go

You can syphon directly from the lift tube to remove what is under the gravel. And it is patently unfair to say that all the ufg does is pull the gunk to the bottom. The ugf was the main technology for fish tank filtration for years. Newer technologies have not change the nitrogen cycle and a properly maintained under gravel filter is still a perfectly acceptable means of filtering a tank. That said, admittedly to properly maintain an ugf takes more effort then filtering with sponge filters, hang on the back filters or canister filters. the main advantage of these newer filters is you can tank the filter media to the sink and rinse it out there. Where filtration though an under gravel filter requires that you maintain the filter in the tank. Gravel syphoning and syphoning through the lift tubes are the way to do this.

So if this user is happy with his aquascape, he can vacuum his gravel bed, and syphon through the lift tube and he will be just fine.

 

What he said ^

One thing that I don't think any of you can't deny is that they are going to trap nitrates. At least other filters are easy to clean.

That is precisely why I use them. Nitrates=plant food. Where are the roots of the plant? in the gravel. Where is the majority of the nitrate generating substance? in the gravel. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

This tank has been setup for 8 years. Sadly it is also the one that is now leaking.

 

Current setup: 55gal tank w/ magnum 350 cannister (microfilter media) and UGF.

I am planning to transition to a more advanced filtration setup; some of my fish don't like the surface currents created by the UGF. here is my plan. i'm fairly new at this, so bear with me.

New setup:
sponge pre-filter ->
magnum 350 cannister w/ carbon media ->
TMC V2 600F fluidized sand bed filter ->
terminator 5W uv sterilizer

step 1: add the fluidized sand bed & UV sterilizer
step 2: cannister gets 50% charcoal, 50% substrate from UGF
step 3: wait a few weeks (how long???) for the fluidized sand filter to build up bacteria
step 4: remove substrate (good way to do this w/ minimum stress to fish?)
step 5: remove UGF
step 6: 50% water change
step 7: bleach, rinse & dechlorinate substrate
step 8: re-introduce substrate

I have heard that pulling up the UGF can introduce a LOT of into the water & wreak havoc w/ levels. some have advised that I remove the fish during this process. unfortunately, I have a LOT of fish w/ no good place for them to go......

I am hoping that the UV sterilizer will kill off most waterborne bacteria & help with the process. am I missing anything? thanks for the help!

kevin

As far as some place to put the fish while you are doing this. Buy yourself a 55 gallon rubbermaid trash can. you can drain the water from your tank into the trash can and then place the fish in this while you do your maintenance. You will need to drop an air stone in this as it will have less surface area then the tank for gas exchange, alternatively you could bag your fish while you are doing this, Either way it would be best to fast your fish a couple of days before tackling this. That way when they are stressed by being chased etc, their bellies are empty and they will not pollute their water.

thanks everyone for the input!

@kinezumi89 - you mention not using that much carbon. the fluidized sand filter will be my bio media. would I still need ceramic rings or something to that effect in the cannister? what is the purpose of the cannister in my setup if my fluidized sand is bio?

Water movement.

 

That is precisely why I use them. Nitrates=plant food. Where are the roots of the plant? in the gravel. Where is the majority of the nitrate generating substance? in the gravel. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

This tank has been setup for 8 years. Sadly it is also the one that is now leaking.

I don't think UGF's make much of a difference on keeping plants. I keep my plants without one quite easily.

 

I don't think UGF's make much of a difference on keeping plants. I keep my plants without one quite easily.

Very cool. I have one question. How do you keep bunch plants looking so good. I never have any trouble with rooted plants, but I can not grow bunch plants to save my life.

 

Very cool. I have one question. How do you keep bunch plants looking so good. I never have any trouble with rooted plants, but I can not grow bunch plants to save my life.

My Najas? Those darn things grow themselves. Easiest thing ever! It grows fast too! I ship lots of it out. Great for breeding livebearers.

I think we've divulged a bit from the top of this thread. It's supposed to be about removal of an Under gravel system, not the pro's and cons of such a system ;D

 

My Najas? Those darn things grow themselves. Easiest thing ever! It grows fast too! I ship lots of it out. Great for breeding livebearers.

I think we've divulged a bit from the top of this thread. It's supposed to be about removal of an Under gravel system, not the pro's and cons of such a system ;D

Too true, apologies to the OP.

 

I have come across many UGF's that were horrific. The nastiest tanks I have ever seen have had UGF's. Now they were most certainly neglected by their owners but I think there is a much greater chance of having issues with them.

One thing that I don't think any of you can't deny is that they are going to trap nitrates. At least other filters are easy to clean.

I do not see the point of getting a UGF in the first place, there is no cost savings in it.

Hello; Of all the filter systems I have used the UGF have been the least expensive to purchase and operate. In addition they have also been the most reliable, never failing unless the air pump itself is accounted as a part of the filter system.
I went thru a number of the early HOB types and it was a few decades until some models beacme fairly reliable. I recall a large number of times when the early HOB's had lost prime and the UGF system was bubbling along for the hours involved. The early HOB types would lose prime with a breif flicker of the power and would not self start leaving a tank to be saved by the UGF, sponge or other filter. It was some time before I was comfortable with only a HOB on a tank. I still run at least a bubbler in addition to the HOB. I would consider the practical aspect of saving a tank of fish as an example of cost saving.
Good luck.

 

Hello; Of all the filter systems I have used the UGF have been the least expensive to purchase and operate. In addition they have also been the most reliable, never failing unless the air pump itself is accounted as a part of the filter system.
I went thru a number of the early HOB types and it was a few decades until some models beacme fairly reliable. I recall a large number of times when the early HOB's had lost prime and the UGF system was bubbling along for the hours involved. The early HOB types would lose prime with a breif flicker of the power and would not self start leaving a tank to be saved by the UGF, sponge or other filter. It was some time before I was comfortable with only a HOB on a tank. I still run at least a bubbler in addition to the HOB. I would consider the practical aspect of saving a tank of fish as an example of cost saving.
Good luck.

You should really start your own thread. Lets not hijick this one. I'd love to discuss more

 

My Najas? Those darn things grow themselves. Easiest thing ever! It grows fast too! I ship lots of it out. Great for breeding livebearers.

I think we've divulged a bit from the top of this thread. It's supposed to be about removal of an Under gravel system, not the pro's and cons of such a system ;D

Hello; Fair enough. I have only ever removed such a filter as part of an entire take down of a tank, not while trying to keep fish goinng in the tank. I cannot picture a comfortable way to do this and would likely just turn off the air and leave it in place.
Good luck

 

thanks for all the inputs, everyone. very much appreciated.

my reasoning for removing the UGF is several fold:

first, mine isn't moving very much water at all. i'm using an (powerful) air pump to drive it. LOTS of bubbles, very little flow. i'm sure that with some effort, I could get it working a lot better. unfortunately, I don't have a delicate touch (muppet fingers). every time I mess with the system, I break the tabs off a riser & it comes out of the UGF bed. drives me crazy.

second is that this particular system REALLY disturbs the surface. I have a few fish that like some calm waters.

third, I am an engineer. I like to be able to calculate things with reasonable accuracy. there are too many uncontrollable variables with a UGF for my brain to like it long term. to each his own!

kev

 

Go engineers! You'll have to post a picture once you're all done.

 

I will, as soon as I figure out what's killing all my fish......

yesterday = not good. started with a floater & wound up with the discovery that my seachem ammonia alert disk is garbage. ammonia was over 8PPM. nitrate was near zero. I think something killed my bacteria. trying to save everybody.

 

Over 8? All your fish would be dead. What is your pH?

The ammonia alert has a MUCH smaller scale than a normal test.

 

I used an API kit. tested it twice (from two different kits!). IMMEDIATELY did a 50% water change w/ a few capfuls of Prime & some Microbacter7. two fish dead so far, one in the hospital & the rest seem okay.....for now.

the ammonia alert thing was still yellow with a TINY tint of green, indicating below 0.2ppm.

I will do another 50% change again today & then keep doing 25% changes until I cycle again. will the Prime delay the start of the cycle by locking up the ammonia? i'm in uncharted territory here....

 

you don't know what the pH is?