Refused the sale of fish?

So I went to the same LFS (well, not so local actually) I usually go to to get most of my aquatic, fish & equipment. I have got most of my fish from there.

I went in to get some red phantom tetra for my newly cycled 110L tank and I was refused as my tank was set at 23c. He said it's against the law to sell anyone tropical fish who's tank is under 24c. Even though after researching the species they are fine at 22/23c. AND even though they've sold me most of my other fish and have never bothered asking any questions.

Is this true? Has anyone else experienced a refusal of the sale of fish? Is this a new law?

I mean, it's good that they're looking out for the fish but a 1 degree difference when I know the species is absolutely fine at 23c??

 

what country is this?

 

I think I would be talking to the manager of this store. I don't know the laws in the UK but I can't imagine a 1 degree difference in temp would be cause to refuse to sell you fish. I am sure the young man was just trying to look out for the fish he is selling but I can't see this as being reasonable.

 

Stores can refuse a sale for any reason they like but this sounds like someone was being a little over zealous. I’d ask to have a chat with a manager & explain your set up even show them some proof of the temperature range of the fish you want.

 

I don't know the outcomes, but I have overheard more then once employees at our LFS starting to go into the explanation of why you can't buy a tank and drop fish right in them.

 

Things are different in the UK. They actually have laws about fish keeping and the sale of fish . 1 degree may be overzealous but if it’s the law it’s the law. Stores can be shut down for not abiding by the law. I was in Germany and there stores were unbelievable. No dead fish!! And all tanks well taken care of. And the store was our equivalent of Walmart. It sold everything.

 

1 degree does seem a bit much to me. I’ve not really experienced fish stores over here to ask many questions when buying.

Where did you go? Maidenhead? I wouldn’t really expect an LFS to ask you unless it was one of the chains, such as Maidenhead & PetsatHome.

 

I can tell you from experience European and British fish shops are wayyyy better taken care of so they have really high standards. When I lived in Germany I went to a fish shop and every fish was so healthy and none were dead. They refused to sell schooling and shoaling fish in groups less than 6 and had to see actual pictures of your tank and water parameters to buy a fish. My family always jokes it was like adopting a child lol

 

what country is this?

The UK, up North

1 degree does seem a bit much to me. I’ve not really experienced fish stores over here to ask many questions when buying.

Where did you go? Maidenhead? I wouldn’t really expect an LFS to ask you unless it was one of the chains, such as Maidenhead & PetsatHome.

No the Maidenhead I go to don’t care, I’ve bought fish from there recently and as long as they make a sale they don’t seem to really seem to mind.
It was an independent LFS, no other branches other than the one I go to.

Stores can refuse a sale for any reason they like but this sounds like someone was being a little over zealous. I’d ask to have a chat with a manager & explain your set up even show them some proof of the temperature range of the fish you want.

I mentioned about the research but he didn’t care. Just said he won’t sell me any tropical fish unless I set my temp to 24 and come back in a few days.

so I went to Maidenhead and bought the exact same breed for £4 more, plus wasted £10 in petrol. Was quite annoyed to be honest. Like I said, it’s not like I’ve never bought fish there before.

I think I would be talking to the manager of this store. I don't know the laws in the UK but I can't imagine a 1 degree difference in temp would be cause to refuse to sell you fish. I am sure the young man was just trying to look out for the fish he is selling but I can't see this as being reasonable.

My thoughts exactly. Even the two guys who own the store have sold me fish and didn’t bother asking me about my tank setup. Kinda makes me not want to go back there.. I was being loyal to the independent store but

 

My thoughts exactly. Even the two guys who own the store have sold me fish and didn’t bother asking me about my tank setup. Kinda makes me not want to go back there.. I was being loyal to the independent store but

I would have to talk to the owners. I feel sure they won't appreciate losing customers. If they are not already aware they need to know what is happening to prevent losing more customers.

 

I

I would have to talk to the owners. I feel sure they won't appreciate losing customers. If they are not already aware they need to know what is happening to prevent losing more customers.

I don’t know.. kinda get the feeling they’ll just say it’s the law and he was right to do what he did then I’ll just feel like an idiot.. maybe when I head there again if one of the managers serves me I’ll mention it in a passing comment *shrug*

 

I

I don’t know.. kinda get the feeling they’ll just say it’s the law and he was right to do what he did then I’ll just feel like an idiot.. maybe when I head there again if one of the managers serves me I’ll mention it in a passing comment *shrug*

That does sound like a good plan.

 

Maybe just show them that the temperature requirements for that particular species are 20-23 degrees? I understand that if it really is law you might not get anywhere, but it is ridicuous, especially considering recent posts where UK fish shops are prepared to sell a tank and fish with no advice about cycling or suitable stocking...

 

Things are different in the UK. They actually have laws about fish keeping and the sale of fish . 1 degree may be overzealous but if it’s the law it’s the law. Stores can be shut down for not abiding by the law. I was in Germany and there stores were unbelievable. No dead fish!! And all tanks well taken care of. And the store was our equivalent of Walmart. It sold everything.

I can tell you from experience European and British fish shops are wayyyy better taken care of so they have really high standards. When I lived in Germany I went to a fish shop and every fish was so healthy and none were dead. They refused to sell schooling and shoaling fish in groups less than 6 and had to see actual pictures of your tank and water parameters to buy a fish. My family always jokes it was like adopting a child lol

Interestingly the law in Germany does not say anything about actual conditions. It's all at the discretion of the public veterinarian and the store clerks. And as far as I know it's the same in the UK.

BUT in both countries it's usual that public veterinarians check the store regularly so the license to sell fish is renewed and if a customer gives a tip to the authorities those have to check in on the store. Unannounced visits by officials are also normal. A store cannot afford to have too bad conditions.
Still, I've seen stores I would never buy fish from. So please don't think it's all great here.

Additionally, if it's a big box pet store they only made it mandatory 1 or 2 years ago that at least one of the department clerks for each animal group they sell has to be certified as an animal keeper/handler for that specific group.
(Side info: Maybe 50% of stores only sell fish, inverts and rodents, the rest also sell birds, amphibians and reptiles. There is only 1(!) store in the whole of Germany that's allowed to sell cats and dogs. But then again, that store is the biggest petstore in the world and they also have sloths, alligators and meercats. Anyone interested google "Zoo Zajac" in Duisburg.)

The only European country I know for sure that has laws with actual numbers for tank conditions is Austria.

All that said, refusal of sale for 1 degree celsius is a case for the manager.

 

This is a summary re fish from the Animal welfare act here in the UK, it may have been updated since this I haven’t looked for some time http://www.fbas.co.uk/FISH CARE and LAW.pdf

 

This is a summary re fish from the Animal welfare act here in the UK, it may have been updated since this I haven’t looked for some time http://www.fbas.co.uk/FISH CARE and LAW.pdf

Yeah, the word "suitable" is key in our laws, too.

That's what I meant with veterinarian's discretion. They will either be experienced or will actually use the same sources hobbyists use, btw, to determine what is suitable. Don't know how it is in the UK, in the EU they are really generous with tank volumes. I guess the guidelines are so ingrained in the hobby here, that it does explain a lot of my estimates I use here.

 

Says nothing about a min

This is a summary re fish from the Animal welfare act here in the UK, it may have been updated since this I haven’t looked for some time http://www.fbas.co.uk/FISH CARE and LAW.pdf

It says nothing about a minimum temperature. But it’s also not geared toward the selling of fish.
I’m going to research selling laws before I go back to the store I think

 

Meh.... 1 degree may not be much but the idea is to have a tank in the higher temperature ranges for tropical fish.

24 C is already on the low end considering some of the lakes stay at 30 C year round.

 

I know how you feel. I have been dealing with Petsmart here for a year in a half. If you can provide the body, your fish is wannateed for two weeks if it should die. I have only had to do this maybe four times. Last time, the clerk I often get, asked how I acclimated. She told me I did it wrong, but she would give me a new fish this time. I switched stores...felt like telling her to look at Fishlore...lol

 

Meh.... 1 degree may not be much but the idea is to have a tank in the higher temperature ranges for tropical fish.

24 C is already on the low end considering some of the lakes stay at 30 C year round.

What’s the point of all the care sheets stating fish can live in colder waters then if we should all have out tanks 24c and above?

 

What’s the point of all the care sheets stating fish can live in colder waters then if we should all have out tanks 24c and above?

Recommended temperature for the red phantom tetra is 20-23c. I actually looked this tetra up the other day and decided it would not be suitable for my tank for this reason.

 

I don’t get why they denied a customer when they could have just asked you to turn the temp up one degree when acclimating

 

1 degree does seem a bit much to me. I’ve not really experienced fish stores over here to ask many questions when buying.

Aquarium thermometer are not accurate enough to be fussing over one degree. Mine all read a bit different right next to each other.

 

I can't believe it is a specific temp since there are fishes sold in stores that prefer lower temps. It might be a welfare clause and this person might be mistaken about the specific species. Maybe you should go back - look for a cold water species (if they have one and then see what he sez about 24c )

 

Ex

I don’t get why they denied a customer when they could have just asked you to turn the temp up one degree when acclimating

Exactly!! I just left the shop and shrugged my shoulders and went straight to Maidenhead and got the same fish ‍♂️

Recommended temperature for the red phantom tetra is 20-23c. I actually looked this tetra up the other day and decided it would not be suitable for my tank for this reason.

I know right.. he reckoned they needed 25c minimum

 

What’s the point of all the care sheets stating fish can live in colder waters then if we should all have out tanks 24c and above?

Mostly so that people will buy fish in North America where temperatures can get pretty low and people usually keep indoor temps to 21 C at most. Those care sheets are complete junk in my opinion

 

What’s the point of all the care sheets stating fish can live in colder waters then if we should all have out tanks 24c and above?

I think the OP was dealing with an overzealous employee who intentionally lied. At least I hope so, as not all tropical fish require the same "minimum" temperature requirements.

Ex

Exactly!! I just left the shop and shrugged my shoulders and went straight to Maidenhead and got the same fish ‍♂

I know right.. he reckoned they needed 25c minimum

Obviously I wasn't there, but I feel as though you have given up too quickly.

He wasted your valuable time and money over a one degree difference, something that could be easily resolved. You could have bought the fish, quickly adjust the temperature, then add your fish. Instead, he was unwilling to be flexible and reasonable over a minor "problem." It's so incredibly inconsiderate and insulting, it almost sounds like make-believe. Think about that.

 

The retailer seems to be getting a lot of flak but I am on their side. Any experienced tropical fish keeper knows that the natural temperature range for these fish is very high. Most hobbyists keep them at lower temps but where do you draw the line? That employee drew the line at 24 C and I don't blame him for it.

 

The retailer seems to be getting a lot of flak but I am on their side. Any experienced tropical fish keeper knows that the natural temperature range for these fish is very high. Most hobbyists keep them at lower temps but where do you draw the line? That employee drew the line at 24 C and I don't blame him for it.

While we can all have our opinions though, (If that was just an opinion) he shouldn't lie. And he shouldn't force his opinions upon other hobbyists. And it could be simply fixed.

 

While we can all have our opinions though, (If that was just an opinion) he shouldn't lie. And he shouldn't force his opinions upon other hobbyists. And it could be simply fixed.

What part of it is lying though? Having different opinions from google care sheets isn't lying...He isn't forcing his opinion on other hobbyists either, it's just refusing a sale?

 

Maybe there was an inspector in the store that day.

 

I agree with Coradee, they can refuse service to you if they so choose to, even though the reason they provided was not a very good one. I was once refused a certain type of fish, forgot what the exact reason was, but I usually avoid sharing anything controversial or information that "goes against" their recommendations, especially when I know it's incorrect advice.

 

There's lots of information on the internet He probably read different somewhere since it's a one degree difference. Anyways I'd rather have a LFS that can be a little over cautious then watch fish get sold into an untimely death.

 

If it were to get to this level of crazy as a law here, I would find a new home.. If a fish store asks what your tank is at, then tells you to pound sand until you up it a degree by "law" the law is the problem. If they legitimately dislike or disbelieve your set up, that's where the right to serve/deny should come in, and where I would consider finding a new store.

 

The retailer seems to be getting a lot of flak but I am on their side. Any experienced tropical fish keeper knows that the natural temperature range for these fish is very high. Most hobbyists keep them at lower temps but where do you draw the line? That employee drew the line at 24 C and I don't blame him for it.

So the care sheet on this website for zebra danio is a load of rubbish then? As it states their max temp is 24c.

So if you can’t trust the care sheets on here, what can you trust? And if all internet based care sheets are rubbish, how do you get your information to know what’s correct and what isn’t?

 

Well obviously you have to ask the fishes what they prefer. That would solve the issue would it not - that is if you trust the fishes answers... ?

 

I can appreciate employees trying to lookout for the fish they are selling and I’m sure most here would also but they’ve got it wrong in this case

Considering what this is supposed to achieve, it’s ended up doing the opposite, Red Phantoms come from a river that says around 18-21C year round with an exception of a stretch that hits 35C in the dry season but even then the night temperatures drop to around 24C.

Any experienced tropical fish keeper should know that we usually keep these tropical fish in temperatures higher than they would usually experience in the wild with little fluctuations unlike in the wild.

I think talking to the manager next time would be a good idea.

 

Interestingly the law in Germany does not say anything about actual conditions. It's all at the discretion of the public veterinarian and the store clerks. And as far as I know it's the same in the UK.

BUT in both countries it's usual that public veterinarians check the store regularly so the license to sell fish is renewed and if a customer gives a tip to the authorities those have to check in on the store. Unannounced visits by officials are also normal. A store cannot afford to have too bad conditions.
Still, I've seen stores I would never buy fish from. So please don't think it's all great here.

Additionally, if it's a big box pet store they only made it mandatory 1 or 2 years ago that at least one of the department clerks for each animal group they sell has to be certified as an animal keeper/handler for that specific group.
(Side info: Maybe 50% of stores only sell fish, inverts and rodents, the rest also sell birds, amphibians and reptiles. There is only 1(!) store in the whole of Germany that's allowed to sell cats and dogs. But then again, that store is the biggest petstore in the world and they also have sloths, alligators and meercats. Anyone interested google "Zoo Zajac" in Duisburg.)

The only European country I know for sure that has laws with actual numbers for tank conditions is Austria.

All that said, refusal of sale for 1 degree celsius is a case for the manager.

Now I know where I can get my sloth from!!

 

What part of it is lying though?

I said if it wasn't against the law to sell tropical fish unless they had a temp. above 24 degrees, which I suspect it isn't as many say they cn live in colder water. Then he would be lying.

 

I can appreciate employees trying to lookout for the fish they are selling and I’m sure most here would also but they’ve got it wrong in this case

Considering what this is supposed to achieve, it’s ended up doing the opposite, Red Phantoms come from a river that says around 18-21C year round with an exception of a stretch that hits 35C in the dry season but even then the night temperatures drop to around 24C.

Any experienced tropical fish keeper should know that we usually keep these tropical fish in temperatures higher than they would usually experience in the wild with little fluctuations unlike in the wild.

I think talking to the manager next time would be a good idea.

Great, you just contradicted yourself in your own post. Please look at the definition of year round