Reducing Angelfish aggression, male/female more aggressive?

In your experience are male or female angelfish more aggressive? I know at the end of the day it still depends on the individual's personality, but I want to have an idea of which to remove.

I'm planning on attempting to keep a more peaceful group of angelfish long term by buying a group of juveniles then as pairs form rehome either the males or the females. Then I'll continue to rehome any that are excessively aggressive as well until I end up with hopefully a group that doesn't want to kill each other.

I don't mind if I end up with only one or two to keep long term at the end, but I'd like to try this and see if it's something other people can try too to deal with angelfish aggression (which I acknowledge is really just them defending something or not liking another individual, nothing inherently wrong with their behaviour).

 

To be honest my personal opinion is that it is quite a weird idea to rehome fish that expose natural behaviour in an environment that we provide them which doesn't.seem to be appropriate to house the specific species.

Fish that expose natural behaviour never should be the ones that should rehomed to me.

If one can't provide enough space, don't keep them.

But as said this is my personal opinion.

 

You will need at least a 48 inch long tank. then you can get 6 or so younger angels and monitor their behavior. It is almost impossible to sex angelfish, I watched my angels lay and fertilize eggs 12 inches from my face and I could not even determine which one was laying the eggs and which one was fertilizing them.

Basically, - angels that are breeding are going to be territorial, and they will guard there space. I had a pair in a community tank that was mostly peaceful until breeding time rolled around "every 3 months or so" And they mostly just intimidated the entire rest of the tank, keeping every fish to over half of the tank, but the never did any harm. But if you other angels or cichlids in the tank, the intensity will rise. I dont want to call it aggression, double dutch is right in say that they are acting natural.

 

I agree with both posters above.

Angelfish can be kept in "harmonious" groups. "Harmonious" for cichlids (which they are). But that means a tank of at least 150x60x60cm. I myself wouldn't go under 200cm length.

The idea of "no aggression" most beginners have is so far off the natural behaviour of many fish, it would boil down to limiting the choices to Corydoras, some other catfish, some loaches, maybe danios and some rasboras. Cichlids, tetras, labyrinthfish and a lot of other groups would be out entirely.

 

To be honest my personal opinion is that it is quite a weird idea to rehome fish that expose natural behaviour in an environment that we provide them which doesn't.seem to be appropriate to house the specific species.

Fish that expose natural behaviour never should be the ones that should rehomed to me.

If one can't provide enough space, don't keep them.

But as said this is my personal opinion.

I see thanks! What size tank would you recommend for keeping a group of Angelfish? I tried keeping a group in a 75 gallon before but it seems appropriate for maybe only one pair?

You will need at least a 48 inch long tank. then you can get 6 or so younger angels and monitor their behavior. It is almost impossible to sex angelfish, I watched my angels lay and fertilize eggs 12 inches from my face and I could not even determine which one was laying the eggs and which one was fertilizing them.

Basically, - angels that are breeding are going to be territorial, and they will guard there space. I had a pair in a community tank that was mostly peaceful until breeding time rolled around "every 3 months or so" And they mostly just intimidated the entire rest of the tank, keeping every fish to over half of the tank, but the never did any harm. But if you other angels or cichlids in the tank, the intensity will rise. I dont want to call it aggression, double dutch is right in say that they are acting natural

Once they breed it's quite possible to sex them!! Generally the female will be the one who hangs around the eggs more while the male patrols the territory. That's one way to tell but other ways to tell without having to actually watch them lay eggs include:
Looking at the breeding tube, females will generally have a rounder one. Once the breeding tubes have appeared you can also at their belly area, females will look fatter before laying eggs.

Precisely because the breeding pair will be territorial I'm thinking of removing one half of any breeding pairs that form and I have acknowledged that it's a natural behaviour in the original post!! (nothing inherently wrong with the behaviour as they are just defending their territory or having a preference towards/against certain other fish)

I kept my previous groups in a 75 gallon (48" length), would it be better to keep just a single angel or a pair in there rather than a group? The previous groups all formed pairs and some pairs took up 36" of the space which didn't leave much room for the other angels to get away

I agree with both posters above.

Angelfish can be kept in "harmonious" groups. "Harmonious" for cichlids (which they are). But that means a tank of at least 150x60x60cm. I myself wouldn't go under 200cm length.

The idea of "no aggression" most beginners have is so far off the natural behaviour of many fish, it would boil down to limiting the choices to Corydoras, some other catfish, some loaches, maybe danios and some rasboras. Cichlids, tetras, labyrinthfish and a lot of other groups would be out entirely.

I see thanks! My tank is only a 120cm in length, in that case if I still wanted to keep Angelfish it's only appropriate for either a single fish or a pair I'm guessing?

Definitely agreed with the no aggression thing being unrealistic! I don't mind some squabbling and some fights here and there, but when certain fish are excessively targeted or excessively target others to the point where some fish are stuck in a corner all the time or getting infections from wounds, that's when I know it's generally either an environment or a personality-being-incompatible-with-the-way-I-would-like-the-tank-set-up problem and I need to change something

 

I see thanks! My tank is only a 120cm in length, in that case if I still wanted to keep Angelfish it's only appropriate for either a single fish or a pair I'm guessing?

A single fish is not species appropriate, as Pterophyllum are actually gregarious. A pair... yes, technically. But two problems: 1. Angelfish do not permanently form pairs. If they separate they might try to kill each other. 2. Then it's really only the pair and some bottomdwellers. In a 120cm tank I have been looking after the past year the owner had to remove all Angels for good as the breeding pair pushed every other fish (emperor tetras, bleeding heart tetras and two other Angels) to 1/5 of the tank. The only fish unphased were the Corydoras. So if you want species appropriate conditions: 6-10 fish, a 2 meter tank and a lot of structure are advised.

but when certain fish are excessively targeted or excessively target others to the point where some fish are stuck in a corner all the time or getting infections from wounds, that's when I know it's generally either an environment or a personality-being-incompatible-with-the-way-I-would-like-the-tank-set-up problem and I need to change something

Usually it boils down to the tank conditions just not fitting the species at all: Too small tank, too little real hiding spots, no/wrong structure... If it even gets to that point I usually see the problem in trying to keep fish under completely wrong conditions.

And while we're at it: Divorce yourself from the notion to fit fish to tank sizes by volume. Dimensions, especially footprint dimensions, are much more important. For Angels height also matters to a degree to prevent stunting, but for behavioural reasons most often length and structure are your central factors.

 

A single fish is not species appropriate, as Pterophyllum are actually gregarious. A pair... yes, technically. But two problems: 1. Angelfish do not permanently form pairs. If they separate they might try to kill each other. 2. Then it's really only the pair and some bottomdwellers. In a 120cm tank I have been looking after the past year the owner had to remove all Angels for good as the breeding pair pushed every other fish (emperor tetras, bleeding heart tetras and two other Angels) to 1/5 of the tank. The only fish unphased were the Corydoras. So if you want species appropriate conditions: 6-10 fish, a 2 meter tank and a lot of structure are advised.


Usually it boils down to the tank conditions just not fitting the species at all: Too small tank, too little real hiding spots, no/wrong structure... If it even gets to that point I usually see the problem in trying to keep fish under completely wrong conditions.

And while we're at it: Divorce yourself from the notion to fit fish to tank sizes by volume. Dimensions, especially footprint dimensions, are much more important. For Angels height also matters to a degree to prevent stunting, but for behavioural reasons most often length and structure are your central factors.

That's really interesting! I see a lot of people recommending angelfish as a single centrepiece fish but is that actually not good for them?

That's exactly the reason why I prefer to keep a group instead of just a breeding pair unless I have a separate tank to remove one to in case they decide to "break up". My ideal would be to keep them in a group since they shoal in the wild, but I'll wait until I have a 210gal (6ft by 2.5ft by 2ft) before trying that!

Agreed that dimensions are more important, where I'm from we usually describe tanks by listing the dimensions (e.g. saying 30 cube for 30cm cube tank instead of 7gal, or 522 meaning 5ft by 2ft by 2ft instead of 140gal) rather than saying gallons since footprint is really more important to consider for most fish. Height is really only important for some fish like angels that will bulk up a bit height wise and for when planning for different swimming levels + potential escape routes and hiding places. I only use gallons in international groups or forums as most people seem to have an easier time understanding that

 

That's really interesting! I see a lot of people recommending angelfish as a single centrepiece fish but is that actually not good for them?

To be clear: I'm opposed to classifying fish as "centerpiece" and generally against community tanks. To me it's either species appropriate (all requirements met as far as possible, be it social, decoration, food or water requirements) or not keeping a species in question at all. So any statements like that are irrelevant to me.

My ideal would be to keep them in a group since they shoal in the wild, but I'll wait until I have a 210gal (6ft by 2.5ft by 2ft) before trying that!

I support that decision!

Agreed that dimensions are more important, where I'm from we usually describe tanks by listing the dimensions (e.g. saying 30 cube for 30cm cube tank instead of 7gal, or 522 meaning 5ft by 2ft by 2ft instead of 140gal) rather than saying gallons since footprint is really more important to consider for most fish. Height is really only important for some fish like angels that will bulk up a bit height wise and for when planning for different swimming levels + potential escape routes and hiding places. I only use gallons in international groups or forums as most people seem to have an easier time understanding that

Here where I live it's the same. People usually go by just length, as that determines the rest thanks to relatively standardized tank sizes. Going by that I have an 80 (80cm length).
Internationally, while most tanks are still standardized (at least up to 40 gallons, beyond that standards change depending on where you live) I find the fixation on volume (thanks to useless rules of thumb like "inch of fish by gallon") irritating and in some situations even outright dangerous.

 

I have a group of six angelfish in a tank that is 160 x 60 x 60, they have been there over a year with no problems, they do argue a bit amongst themselves but nothing serious. I am beginning to think they are all males as no pairs have formed and some have definite humped heads. It would be unusual but good if they are all males! The other thing to consider is their eventual size, mine are very big, and definitely need that size of tank at least. In a 120cm long tank they would be quite crowded I think.

 

To be clear: I'm opposed to classifying fish as "centerpiece" and generally against community tanks. To me it's either species appropriate (all requirements met as far as possible, be it social, decoration, food or water requirements) or not keeping a species in question at all. So any statements like that are irrelevant to me.

I see so Angelfish should only be kept in breeding pairs or groups? Also what do you do for food? Do you feed only a variety of gut-loaded live food, only pellets, mix of both or something else?

Here where I live it's the same. People usually go by just length, as that determines the rest thanks to relatively standardized tank sizes. Going by that I have an 80 (80cm length).
Internationally, while most tanks are still standardized (at least up to 40 gallons, beyond that standards change depending on where you live) I find the fixation on volume (thanks to useless rules of thumb like "inch of fish by gallon") irritating and in some situations even outright dangerous.

Yes this! I really wish more people would switch to just outright stating the tank dimensions. A 91L (litres) tank might sound better than an 81L (litres) tank, but when the 91L is 45 x 45 x 45cm and the 81L is 90 x 30 x 30cm I rather use the 81L if space allows. You can do things to keep up the water quality in a tank with less water volume, but you can't make a tank longer or wider while the fish are in it.

 

I see so Angelfish should only be kept in breeding pairs or groups? Also what do you do for food? Do you feed only a variety of gut-loaded live food, only pellets, mix of both or something else?

I would do only a group.

Foods: Live and frozen, likely some vitamin additives. Pellets and other dry foods only free of fish meal, grains, legumes, starches and carbs. And also only as a reserve if live or frozen are not available for the moment.

I don't have angels at the moment (and considering my financial and living situation this will likely be the case for quite a while), but the fish I have are mostly fed live foods, frozen only when live isn't at hand.

 

I have a group of six angelfish in a tank that is 160 x 60 x 60, they have been there over a year with no problems, they do argue a bit amongst themselves but nothing serious. I am beginning to think they are all males as no pairs have formed and some have definite humped heads. It would be unusual but good if they are all males! The other thing to consider is their eventual size, mine are very big, and definitely need that size of tank at least. In a 120cm long tank they would be quite crowded I think.

Wow that'll be really cool if it turns out they're all males! Either way sounds it sounds like you have a lovely tank!

I'll probably wait until I can get a 6ft or larger tank before I try keeping a group. I'll probably keep some rasboras/livebearers/group of gouramis and one species of bottom dwellers in this tank instead