Red Plants Not Staying Red - Page 2

WetRootsNH

Not 100% sure how to starve nitrates since it's in ferts. But I did get a drop checker and also bumped up co2. I will increase lighting to 8 hours and go from there. The drop checker shows greenish yellow so about 40ppm I would say. A bit afraid to go any further in fear my fish won't like it.
Greenish yellow is fine for now just keep an eye on your fish for any funny behavior.
If you did wan to try nitrate starvation you'd have to move to separate dosing instead of an all in one.
With the new photoperiod and CO2 tactics I would give it some time (long enough to see how new growth is responding) before you adjust anything else.
Small changes and see reaction instead of lots of big changes otherwise you have no idea what change actually worked.
 

Wraithen

Oh, sorry about that. I thought I had read that you only have your lights on for 6 hours because any more and you started having algae issues. I must have been mixing up posts.
In that case, you should up your lighting schedule to 8-10 hours daily.
Diffusers works fine but are the least efficient out of the three (diffusers, atomizers, reactors). You may find that you'll need to up your CO2 a little higher than the other methods to get yourself to optimum levels.
Were it me I would:
Increase lighting to 8 hours.
Swap to dry ferts and dose according to EI methods so that you know you are not short on any ferts.
Continue using root tabs as well.
Get a drop checker so that you have a better idea what your CO2 levels are.
Again, that's just what I would do. Outside of those recommendations I guess I'm tapped out for suggestions for now.

Oh, there is one more method I have seen people use, I don't really like this approach but hey, why not inform you of it and let you decide:
Nitrate starvation
People will keep all other things high (other ferts, light, CO2) and dial Nitrates way back. Apparently this causes the chlorophyll to fade a bit which shows the red pigments more as they are left behind.
That's a nifty trick if it works. Not good long term probably but great right before taking a picture for a competition I'm sure.
 

danhutchins

Greenish yellow is fine for now just keep an eye on your fish for any funny behavior.
If you did wan to try nitrate starvation you'd have to move to separate dosing instead of an all in one.
With the new photoperiod and CO2 tactics I would give it some time (long enough to see how new growth is responding) before you adjust anything else.
Small changes and see reaction instead of lots of big changes otherwise you have no idea what change actually worked.
Oh and I was getting algae but it was just on the glass. For some reason it would build up after a couple days with lights on 10 hours.
 

danhutchins

Not any help on what to do with your plants. But other plants that I’ve have luck with are dwarf lily and crypt Wendit.View attachment 509930 I’m also using a finnex 24/7 with a vivagrow 24/7. But both are on the 24/7 settings. I’ve had the same results as you with the plants you have. I’m not using CO2.
I don't ever use 24/7 mode. All it does is grow algae. It's best to keep them on max with a timer.
 

danhutchins

Anyone know what kind of algae this is? It grows in my turtle tank but only on a fake piece of driftwood that she uses for basking.
 

danhutchins

Anyone know what kind of algae this is? It grows in my turtle tank but only on a fake piece of driftwood that she uses for basking.
Sorry forgot to post the pic.
20181215_173647.jpg
 

86 ssinit

Yes that black beard algae bba.
 

86 ssinit


7FEB837C-E360-40CA-8AA0-011C850B6F48.jpeg My 90 with finnex and vivagrow 24/7s.
 

danhutchins

Ok, so I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the help and merry Christmas. I have to be right up front with this as always. I didn't take anyone's advice on these darn plants and why the were not staying red but instead followed a very strong feeling that I had. The feeling was that I had way to much light and I know some will say it's not so but so far the only thing I have changed is I removed the beamswork from the tank and honestly just within a few days my red plants have gone from very green to a much more bronze color. They are not dieing but getting the red back. I also have some kind of sword or possibly a red tiger lotus not quite sure but it grew a leaf that is super red. Hoping that the next few days they get better but who knows, time will tell. Will post a picture of the ludwigia now.
 

danhutchins

Here it is. I do have more of it that looks a bit better but not by much.
1545688436799.jpg
 

danhutchins

Here is the other leaf I was talking about. It looks more red in person.
20181225_151743.jpg
 

Wraithen

So I did some digging on this. Apparently, in addition to red plants looking more red from a more red tuned light, they also will actually be more red from the more red spectrum. I'm guessing the beamswork with the 24/7 wasn't giving the right light color combination.

I didnt understand how taking a light off would make a red plant more red, until I stumbled on some research that indicates the overall wavelength is more critical than intensity itself. This is counter intuitive to me due to the reason red lights are red. Still have to do some research on why this is. It seems like the more red light tricks the plant into thinking it is getting more par than it is, so it needs more red to protect itself from radiation burns.
 

danhutchins

So I did some digging on this. Apparently, in addition to red plants looking more red from a more red tuned light, they also will actually be more red from the more red spectrum. I'm guessing the beamswork with the 24/7 wasn't giving the right light color combination.

I didnt understand how taking a light off would make a red plant more red, until I stumbled on some research that indicates the overall wavelength is more critical than intensity itself. This is counter intuitive to me due to the reason red lights are red. Still have to do some research on why this is. It seems like the more red light tricks the plant into thinking it is getting more par than it is, so it needs more red to protect itself from radiation burns.
I read something similar. That's why I was thinking I had to remove the beamswork. So far it is working. We will see in another week or so. But you guys have been lots of help and honestly I didn't think removing the light would help but had to listen to that nagging feeling.
 

Wraithen

I read something similar. That's why I was thinking I had to remove the beamswork. So far it is working. We will see in another week or so. But you guys have been lots of help and honestly I didn't think removing the light would help but had to listen to that nagging feeling.
Sometimes you gotta break the rules to find out what the rules really are!
 

danhutchins

Sometimes you gotta break the rules to find out what the rules really are!
Very wise words.
 

WetRootsNH

Actually, the red light thing (other than display of red) is something I hadn't considered.
Red fades out the fastest when traveling through water.
So a plant seeing high red may in fact think that its overall light is higher and the response to throw up its protective pigments would be an appropriate one.
This gives me a lot to think about.
 

danhutchins

Actually, the red light thing (other than display of red) is something I hadn't considered.
Red fades out the fastest when traveling through water.
So a plant seeing high red may in fact think that its overall light is higher and the response to throw up its protective pigments would be an appropriate one.
This gives me a lot to think about.
Now I'm a little happy this has happened. I would have continued to add more light until I got the results I was after and am afraid that I wouldn't be able to add enough co2 to counter the algae since with the 24/7 and beamswork my co2 was almost at max setting. Man am I glad I read 100 different things and then read 100 more. Not to mention this forum. I would be killing fish left and right if not for everyone here.
 

danhutchins

Ok, so I feel like a complete idiot. The light that I was calling the beamswork was actually a cheap nicrew that wasn't full spectrum. I found my beamswork and put that on the tank along side the finnex. Will give it a week or two to see if the extra reds will help.
 

Jocelyn Adelman

Don’t think it was mentioned, but try to get the co2 on 2hrs prior to lights on, I usually have mine turn off 1-2hrs before lights off....

6hrs is fine for a tank, each tank maxes out at a certain level. Some reds can be enhanced with 7-8hrs, some not, over 8hrs is technically a ‘waste’ unless it’s for your personal enjoyment.

Red... red isn’t red from iron, but from lighting and proper ferts.

Beamswork... somewhat crappy light. Fine to maintain a low tech, won’t push out much growth. Nicrew even worse. Of course this will vary model to model, but overall neither are good growth lights... you won’t find many with beautiful high tech tanks and either of those in place.

Nitrates... for sure a factor with reds, starvation with nitrates not the best idea though. As mentioned above ok for short term for a,photo etc, but not good for long term maintainance. Also most of what you have doesn’t fall into lower nitrate categories.
Along this line some others show colors with extra phosphates as well... ferts can be tailored for a tank, but plant requirements for the tank need to be matched

Finnex... decent light, never going to get a super red Dutch like look out of it, but fine for general use. For reference I have the original 24/7 (new spectrums are way better) on my 40 running at sunny (70%) and my 75 at max... both are low tech. I use other lights on my high techs. They are decent lights, but not high lights. This doesn’t mean you can’t get great colors from them, just saying don’t get caught up in the ‘high’ light.

Spectrum, kelvins, etc... so, tons of info here... plants need peaks at certain ranges... full spectrum is full spectrum, but just a spectrum, not a peak if that makes sense... it’s all about exciting the plants at different levels.... doesn’t mean it won’t cut it, But Having HIGH light or LOW light in and of itself isn’t the concern, but peaking at the correct levels is.

If you provide a close up of some of the plants might be able to get you an ID, then you can see if they might need slightly different requirements.

The pogostemon... in a higher light tank the leaves will be purple, one of my favs btw... you should enjoy it when it starts showing to its fullest
 

danhutchins

Don’t think it was mentioned, but try to get the co2 on 2hrs prior to lights on, I usually have mine turn off 1-2hrs before lights off....

6hrs is fine for a tank, each tank maxes out at a certain level. Some reds can be enhanced with 7-8hrs, some not, over 8hrs is technically a ‘waste’ unless it’s for your personal enjoyment.

Red... red isn’t red from iron, but from lighting and proper ferts.

Beamswork... somewhat crappy light. Fine to maintain a low tech, won’t push out much growth. Nicrew even worse. Of course this will vary model to model, but overall neither are good growth lights... you won’t find many with beautiful high tech tanks and either of those in place.

Nitrates... for sure a factor with reds, starvation with nitrates not the best idea though. As mentioned above ok for short term for a,photo etc, but not good for long term maintainance. Also most of what you have doesn’t fall into lower nitrate categories.
Along this line some others show colors with extra phosphates as well... ferts can be tailored for a tank, but plant requirements for the tank need to be matched

Finnex... decent light, never going to get a super red Dutch like look out of it, but fine for general use. For reference I have the original 24/7 (new spectrums are way better) on my 40 running at sunny (70%) and my 75 at max... both are low tech. I use other lights on my high techs. They are decent lights, but not high lights. This doesn’t mean you can’t get great colors from them, just saying don’t get caught up in the ‘high’ light.

Spectrum, kelvins, etc... so, tons of info here... plants need peaks at certain ranges... full spectrum is full spectrum, but just a spectrum, not a peak if that makes sense... it’s all about exciting the plants at different levels.... doesn’t mean it won’t cut it, But Having HIGH light or LOW light in and of itself isn’t the concern, but peaking at the correct levels is.

If you provide a close up of some of the plants might be able to get you an ID, then you can see if they might need slightly different requirements.

The pogostemon... in a higher light tank the leaves will be purple, one of my favs btw... you should enjoy it when it starts showing to its fullest
I would think that with both lights it would be sufficient for the plants. The pogostamon was purple for about as long as the ludwigia was red. Co2 already comes on before the lights and goes off before the lights. I understand the beamswork isn't a high light and I'm absolutely not getting stuck on the high light theory. I actually removed a light and saw better results but not quite what I was looking for. Dont take this the wrong way but you are the only one that says red plants don't benefit from iron so I find that a bit tough to chew. I have also seen many videos of people that have grown hard to keep red plants that say a lot of iron is key. I do dose other ferts and all other plants are amazing. I even have a lace plant that is thriving. I know it basically comes down to spectrum because when I removed the non full spectrum light things got a little better. The new light I put on isn't as bright but is full spectrum. This light visibly looks the same as the finnex just not as bright. So I would think the spectrum for both are pretty close to the same. Not sure if its going to help but I'm giving it a try.
 

WetRootsNH

I would think that with both lights it would be sufficient for the plants. The pogostamon was purple for about as long as the ludwigia was red. Co2 already comes on before the lights and goes off before the lights. I understand the beamswork isn't a high light and I'm absolutely not getting stuck on the high light theory. I actually removed a light and saw better results but not quite what I was looking for. Dont take this the wrong way but you are the only one that says red plants don't benefit from iron so I find that a bit tough to chew. I have also seen many videos of people that have grown hard to keep red plants that say a lot of iron is key. I do dose other ferts and all other plants are amazing. I even have a lace plant that is thriving. I know it basically comes down to spectrum because when I removed the non full spectrum light things got a little better. The new light I put on isn't as bright but is full spectrum. This light visibly looks the same as the finnex just not as bright. So I would think the spectrum for both are pretty close to the same. Not sure if its going to help but I'm giving it a try.
I agree 100% with everything Jocelyn said, she is just much better at wording stuff than me.
I notice she put "proper ferts" after saying iron doesn't make plants red. My belief on the subject and it sounds as if hers is the same is that you need enough iron not more.
Some people seem to think that if your plants aren't red enough you just add more iron but if your iron was already at the proper amount than more iron will not help the coloration anymore than the correct amount would have.
 

danhutchins

I agree 100% with everything Jocelyn said, she is just much better at wording stuff than me.
I notice she put "proper ferts" after saying iron doesn't make plants red. My belief on the subject and it sounds as if hers is the same is that you need enough iron not more.
Some people seem to think that if your plants aren't red enough you just add more iron but if your iron was already at the proper amount than more iron will not help the coloration anymore than the correct amount would have.
Agreed, that is why I'm not adding any more iron. Thought it was clear that I was focused on lighting, spectrum and reds other than intensity.
 

danhutchins

Don’t think it was mentioned, but try to get the co2 on 2hrs prior to lights on, I usually have mine turn off 1-2hrs before lights off....

6hrs is fine for a tank, each tank maxes out at a certain level. Some reds can be enhanced with 7-8hrs, some not, over 8hrs is technically a ‘waste’ unless it’s for your personal enjoyment.

Red... red isn’t red from iron, but from lighting and proper ferts.

Beamswork... somewhat crappy light. Fine to maintain a low tech, won’t push out much growth. Nicrew even worse. Of course this will vary model to model, but overall neither are good growth lights... you won’t find many with beautiful high tech tanks and either of those in place.

Nitrates... for sure a factor with reds, starvation with nitrates not the best idea though. As mentioned above ok for short term for a,photo etc, but not good for long term maintainance. Also most of what you have doesn’t fall into lower nitrate categories.
Along this line some others show colors with extra phosphates as well... ferts can be tailored for a tank, but plant requirements for the tank need to be matched

Finnex... decent light, never going to get a super red Dutch like look out of it, but fine for general use. For reference I have the original 24/7 (new spectrums are way better) on my 40 running at sunny (70%) and my 75 at max... both are low tech. I use other lights on my high techs. They are decent lights, but not high lights. This doesn’t mean you can’t get great colors from them, just saying don’t get caught up in the ‘high’ light.

Spectrum, kelvins, etc... so, tons of info here... plants need peaks at certain ranges... full spectrum is full spectrum, but just a spectrum, not a peak if that makes sense... it’s all about exciting the plants at different levels.... doesn’t mean it won’t cut it, But Having HIGH light or LOW light in and of itself isn’t the concern, but peaking at the correct levels is.

If you provide a close up of some of the plants might be able to get you an ID, then you can see if they might need slightly different requirements.

The pogostemon... in a higher light tank the leaves will be purple, one of my favs btw... you should enjoy it when it starts showing to its fullest
Oh and the intensity of the lights didn't matter at all. I really don't think high light is what people should be aiming for instead go for much higher red wavelengths. It may even take making your own lights since I haven't seen any on the market that can penetrate all the way to the substrate, and I really think that is where it needs to be.
 

Jocelyn Adelman

There are a number of high end, wider “spike” lights, that will penetrate the depths of most tanks with over 100 par at the bottom, unfortunately they require a bit of looking. It’s not specifically ‘red’ that spikes red. If you are considering upgrading I would be happy to make some suggestions, but honestly for everyday aquarists most of them aren’t necessary...

Plenty of people have pretty good reds with lower lighting (not LOW, but lower) and the finnex should do you decent.

Sorry if my first post set you off, wasn’t meant as anything more then helpful
 

danhutchins

There are a number of high end, wider “spike” lights, that will penetrate the depths of most tanks with over 100 par at the bottom, unfortunately they require a bit of looking. It’s not specifically ‘red’ that spikes red. If you are considering upgrading I would be happy to make some suggestions, but honestly for everyday aquarists most of them aren’t necessary...

Plenty of people have pretty good reds with lower lighting (not LOW, but lower) and the finnex should do you decent.

Sorry if my first post set you off, wasn’t meant as anything more then helpful
No, it didn't set me off. Was just confused why I was still getting iron input when I had mentioned that I didn't think that was the issue but lighting was. I appreciate your help and would be very interested in your idea for lighting as long as it's not setting me back $200. I already have over $4000 into this tank and am currently working on a 10 gallon shrimp tank that has already seen over $100 and I'm not getting shrimp for another 4-5 months and that's going to cost me another $150-$200. So if its affordable by all means.
 

-Mak-

Oh and the intensity of the lights didn't matter at all. I really don't think high light is what people should be aiming for instead go for much higher red wavelengths. It may even take making your own lights since I haven't seen any on the market that can penetrate all the way to the substrate, and I really think that is where it needs to be.
Well, after a certain PAR the intensity shouldn't matter much, but there is a reason people using ADA, Twinstar, UNS Titan, and other specialty high intensity aquascaping lights get the best reds.



I'm not sure that a specific red wavelength causes red coloration - red wavelengths just contribute to growth of certain parts of the plant, like stems and flowers.
 

Jocelyn Adelman

Haha, affordability and lighting don’t usually go hand in hand... cheap and good for the ten would be chihiros a series, the 501 fits a ten gallon perfectly, dimmable, most lows are run 3/4, high techs 6-7... usually less the $50... be sure to get the single color NOT the 5 color (5color is the marine version)
The depth of your tank will be the issue with lighting, cost goes up greatly here. Best lower priced but great spectrum and good for deeper tanks (I have on a 55 and a 29 for reference) I’ve used is the micmol aquaair... if you wanted to go higher par sbreef would likely be lowest budget wise, very powerful light, gets great reds, also makes a great algae farm if you don’t know what you’re doing...

As to the fe post... I believe after reading through the 4pages I was confused as to who said what... felt better to address then ignore..l I try to read The Whole post and comments before responding so I’m not totally repetitive, but likely I am anyway
 

!poogs!

Read thread, only thing that stands out to me is a possible potassium deficiency hindering your iron absorption.
 

danhutchins

Read thread, only thing that stands out to me is a possible potassium deficiency hindering your iron absorption.
, I never thought of potassium. That actually makes sense. I will have to pick some up. I have been going over absolutely everything for some time now and never once thought of that. You may have just brought the red back to my tank. Thank you.
 

danhutchins

Ordered some potassium should be here tomorrow.
 

danhutchins

So far even dosing potassium every day along with Thrive every other day and iron on days I'm not dosing Thrive there has been no change. I know its only been 2 weeks but I haven't noticed even a slight change. Will give it another couple weeks and see.
 

!poogs!

So far even dosing potassium every day along with Thrive every other day and iron on days I'm not dosing Thrive there has been no change. I know its only been 2 weeks but I haven't noticed even a slight change. Will give it another couple weeks and see.

Just wondering how you are working out.

Don’t know what else to suggest. I went back read the thread again.

In terms of lighting I don’t blow the bank. I use full spectrum lighting.

These are on my planted tank.

125 gallon use full spectrum LED 9000K colour, 2810 Lux, 2249 Lumens, 45 watts.

90 gallons use full spectrum LED 9000K, 2870 Lux, 2086 Lumens, 40 watts.

I don’t think I paid more than $500 for the two, no lighting issues keeping plants.

As for Chems, I use the full Seachem plant line, with the exception of any of the buffers. Don’t require them for my water. Also the water here is very high in calcium and magnesium, so much so I step it down with DI water on a water change.

I don’t have very much for red in the tank for red. Green Ozelot Sword, red Jungle Val (just coming back from a melt), and some cryptcoryne also coming back from a melt.


IMG_2600.JPG
IMG_2590.JPG
 

-Mak-

Have you read this?

How to Grow Red Plants

Again, it's not really fertilizer or extra iron that makes red plants redder
 

danhutchins

Just wondering how you are working out.

Don’t know what else to suggest. I went back read the thread again.

In terms of lighting I don’t blow the bank. I use full spectrum lighting.

These are on my planted tank.

125 gallon use full spectrum LED 9000K colour, 2810 Lux, 2249 Lumens, 45 watts.

90 gallons use full spectrum LED 9000K, 2870 Lux, 2086 Lumens, 40 watts.

I don’t think I paid more than $500 for the two, no lighting issues keeping plants.

As for Chems, I use the full Seachem plant line, with the exception of any of the buffers. Don’t require them for my water. Also the water here is very high in calcium and magnesium, so much so I step it down with DI water on a water change.

I don’t have very much for red in the tank for red. Green Ozelot Sword, red Jungle Val (just coming back from a melt), and some cryptcoryne also coming back from a melt.

View attachment 530984View attachment 530985
They have gotten a bit more bronze with the potassium addition but still not that deep red they were when I first got them. I'm not going to worry to much about it anymore. I have tried everything and if bronze is the best I get, so be it. I did order some other red plants though, so hopefully they work out a bI better. This is what my tank looks like now. The plants I want to be red are behind the driftwood.
20190211_161323.jpg
 

angelcraze

Ok, so I just read this entire thread. Going back to the before and after pics, pic2 has a yellow CRI compared to pic1. Did you add the nicrew when pic2 was taken? Ime, a yellow CRI washes out reds. My favorite spectrum combination is 10000k with RBG (pink). And I use all Beamswork. Just because it's cheapest for me to ship in and the best bang for my buck. I have deep tanks 24" and 26".

The DA fspec is actually a pretty good light IMO. PAR is 44 at 20" according to the charts. Finnex 24/7 has similar PAR ratings as the Beamswork DA fspec.
 

danhutchins

Ok, so I just read this entire thread. Going back to the before and after pics, pic2 has a yellow CRI compared to pic1. Did you add the nicrew when pic2 was taken? Ime, a yellow CRI washes out reds. My favorite spectrum combination is 10000k with RBG (pink). And I use all Beamswork. Just because it's cheapest for me to ship in and the best bang for my buck. I have deep tanks 24" and 26".

The DA fspec is actually a pretty good light IMO. PAR is 44 at 20" according to the charts. Finnex 24/7 has similar PAR ratings as the Beamswork DA fspec.
Yes it was added in pic 2. I will post a more recent pic. I haven't used the beamswork for some time ( I found the beamswork and was using that with the finnex since it is a bit better than my nicrew). The only way I can get it to look even a little red is to adjust the light to put out more red than the other colors. Sorry for it being sideways, don't know why it does that.
1550794228813.jpg
 

danhutchins

You can see the bronze a little better with this one. (Light color tweaked to look better).
20190221_191516.jpg
 

angelcraze

Ok so you are only running the Finnex 24/7 now? On a 55 gallon right?
Or did you mean you haven't run the nicrew for some time? Or you haven't used the Beamswork for very long? Sorry for misunderstanding

Yeah it looks different with the tweaked spectrum. Maybe it's too bushy? Not enough light to get down to the shorter stems? Honestly it looks really nice with the tweaked spectrum imo. You think the tops should be redder? Try a different species maybe? Some ludwigia is redder than others.
 

danhutchins

Ok so you are only running the Finnex 24/7 now? On a 55 gallon right?
Or did you mean you haven't run the nicrew for some time? Or you haven't used the Beamswork for very long? Sorry for misunderstanding

Yeah it looks different with the tweaked spectrum. Maybe it's too bushy? Not enough light to get down to the shorter stems? Honestly it looks really nice with the tweaked spectrum imo. You think the tops should be redder? Try a different species maybe? Some ludwigia is redder than others.
Yes that picture was only with the finnex on a 55 gallon. The plants were blood red when I got them so I don't think a different type is going to make much difference. The nicrew I swapped for the beamswork when I realized it was the nicrew that was on the tank. The reason for switching was because the beamswork is a bit better than the nicrew. Currently using only the finnex but am more than likely going to get the beamswork back on because I'm working on a carpet and some different plants that are also a pinkish red and don't want them to just turn green. We shall see what happens. If they do turn green I think I'm just going to give up on trying to keep them red or pink and just roll with it
 

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