Ready to give up - no answers from internet or fish store

Hello

I have a really stunning 240 litre tank which I really enjoy but I’m totally ready to give up.

Here is my long story
I can confirm all the way through my story for the last year I test my waters 3 times a week and I’m always at 0 PPM ammonia and nitrite (I’ve never had a single spike) and between 40-60ppm nitrate

December 2020- small tank purchased, didn’t cycle, Learned the hard way, fell in love with the hobby though and wanted a bigger tank and to do it right

Jan 2021 - 240L tank purchased and cycled
Sand bottom
24 degrees
Two real plants - remainder silk

March 2021 - introduced coreydoras and neon tetra
April 2021- introduced more of the above and rosey tetra
May 2021- introduced gourami
June 2021 - two Siamese algea eaters and Pleco added for BBA

❤️June 2021 - October 2021 - pure fish bliss ! ❤️

Routine:
40% weekly water changes with sand vaccum
Prime as conditioner
Occasional use of flourish excel
Occasional use of API stress coat
Nitrates a bit high but my tap water is 40ppm and fishes were tolerating no problem
Water hardness checked and fine

October 2021 - coreydoras start dying, panic and take a body to pet store
They see no reason for death
Store give me an antibacterial treatment and salt

October 2021 - no change from above fish dying about 1 per week - mainly coreys but did lose one gourami

October 2021 - Corey fins look damaged so assume attack
Watch fish and can see Pearl gouramis and Spotted gouramis attacking and bothering them

October 2021 - 8 gouramis returned to pet store - only remaining are 3 female dwarf gouramis

Very pleased and assume problem found and can return to peace !

Early November 2021- 2 ottos died - assumed from stress from above never to see bodies

November 2021 - purchased some new fish.
Did not want my filter to lose its bioload capability and tank looked bare
Purchased 2 more rosey tetra, 8 penguin tetra and 5 coreys.
Stupidly didn’t quarantine, one of the rosey tetra had mouth rot and this fish died.

November 2021 - upon noticing the above did a treatment of Esha 200 - fungus, finrot and bacteria treatment
Done Immediately once noticed

December 2021 - Fish still dying - mainly peppered Corey's …. Fins fine though so doesn’t appear to be any attack also fish left are all very peaceful. (Neons, rosey tetra, penguin tetra, 3 female gouramis and two Siamese algea eaters)

Sought advice from internet

advice 1 : “your filter is poor for your tank”
action: changed filter to Fluval FX4 spent £200 hoping this was the solution (took all media from old and ran in conjunction for fortnight)

advice 2: “your nitrates are high”
action: water change frequency increased but felt like it wasn’t this as my tank is the same as my tap water and they’ve tolerated this for a year

To add to this I have ottos in my tank who have been there since the start and are still fine now.
I feel like if all this was a water problem then they would have died first as they are so sensitive

advice 3: “your decorations may be leaching”
action ; stripped tank bare, no change

advice 4: “your API kit is faulty”
action: bought new kit - same readings, water fine

advice 5: “your coreys aren’t getting food”
action: they are as I use sinking food and check
Took a body to pet store who said he didn’t look skinny or fat

advice 6: “you’re overfeeding”
action: definitely not my fish are on the right side of slim.
One feed per day and skip one day per week. Once a week blood worm treat

advice 7: “you don’t have enough oxygen in the tank”
action : new filter creates more flow and I’ve always had an air stone

advice 8: “your heater might not be working propel and cooking fish”
action: added second thermometer to check

advice 9: “your PH is high”
action - ph has always been high and was told not to chase

in summary absolutely nothing is changing and it’s a total mystery

There’s something going on in my tank and I have no idea what to do except let all my fish die. I have 4 coreys left now and fear these will all start to die over the next few weeks

It’s just so odd it’s mainly the coreys - I had small neon tetra and sensitive ottos who are all doing fine

Then today during a water change

Today
- Corey died. No signs of blisters or red gills - no reason at all
This Corey had been lethargic and floating occasionally over the last few daysb

- One female gourami has died, oddest thing she went from totally happy to in a complete panic and bloated and died within a few hours after the water change
She was hugely bloated when she died
Other female gouramis are fine

- One Siamese algea eater is literally bleeding to death in my tank (photo) looks like he’s cut himself badly but how on Earth can this be my luck

Im not sure I expect any reply to this as if I was reading this I wouldn’t know what to suggest so not expecting anything but just in case anyone else went through this I thought I would just ask

Photos
1. Corey died today
2. Siamese algea eater bleeding now
3. Treatment after mouth rot
4. Fish with mouth rot
5. Gouramis that were returned
6. Tap water nitrates
7. Corey from few months ago

 

It always pushes me to want to help when someone says they're reday to give up because this is such an enjoyable hobby but can make you go bonkers when it's not working right and you can't figure out why.

There's a lot that's happened and hats off to you because nobody can fault you for lack of effort at fixing your problems. I'm inclined to think there are several issues rather than one since there are such varied symptoms.

Could you show a current pic of the tank? I believe you said that you've removed all plants during your troubleshooting...yes? That could be causing some overriding stress all around because the fish feel very exposed and anxious.

How is the coloring on your fish? The Rosy Tetra looks pretty pale and washed out to me. That could confirm the stress.

Are you seeing any aggression at all in the tank?

Are you treating the entire tank for the ailments on the individual fish or quarantining? I would definitely remove the sick fish at first sign of illness and quarantine them alone.

Finally, I'm no expert, but my understanding is that high nitrates is something that can affect fish health long term kind of like humans that eat fatty foods won't affect them day one, but over time can lead to bad health problems. It's possible that's what has happened with the fish that you lost.

 

Those nitrates might be up around 80ppm? It could be contributing to stress and ill health. If you don't have an alternative water source you might want to consider going all in on a heavily planted tank to soak up some of those nitrates. Hold off on buying any new fish until you have more experience with plants and have lots of plant mass. This approach to nitrate management may necessitate a lighter stock load than you would prefer to keep nitrates low and water changes to the minimum necessary.

 

I agree about the nitrates. They're pretty high.

Seems like your solution might be to take a break from the cory cats. They seem to be the center of the problem.

If tetras are doing well for you, then my advice is to go with the flow.

 

Hello

I have a really stunning 240 litre tank which I really enjoy but I’m totally ready to give up.

Here is my long story
I can confirm all the way through my story for the last year I test my waters 3 times a week and I’m always at 0 PPM ammonia and nitrite (I’ve never had a single spike) and between 40-60ppm nitrate

December 2020- small tank purchased, didn’t cycle, Learned the hard way, fell in love with the hobby though and wanted a bigger tank and to do it right

Jan 2021 - 240L tank purchased and cycled
Sand bottom
24 degrees
Two real plants - remainder silk

March 2021 - introduced coreydoras and neon tetra
April 2021- introduced more of the above and rosey tetra
May 2021- introduced gourami
June 2021 - two Siamese algea eaters and Pleco added for BBA

❤️June 2021 - October 2021 - pure fish bliss ! ❤️

Routine:
40% weekly water changes with sand vaccum
Prime as conditioner
Occasional use of flourish excel
Occasional use of API stress coat
Nitrates a bit high but my tap water is 40ppm and fishes were tolerating no problem
Water hardness checked and fine

October 2021 - coreydoras start dying, panic and take a body to pet store
They see no reason for death
Store give me an antibacterial treatment and salt

October 2021 - no change from above fish dying about 1 per week - mainly coreys but did lose one gourami

October 2021 - Corey fins look damaged so assume attack
Watch fish and can see Pearl gouramis and Spotted gouramis attacking and bothering them

October 2021 - 8 gouramis returned to pet store - only remaining are 3 female dwarf gouramis

Very pleased and assume problem found and can return to peace !

Early November 2021- 2 ottos died - assumed from stress from above never to see bodies

November 2021 - purchased some new fish.
Did not want my filter to lose its bioload capability and tank looked bare
Purchased 2 more rosey tetra, 8 penguin tetra and 5 coreys.
Stupidly didn’t quarantine, one of the rosey tetra had mouth rot and this fish died.

November 2021 - upon noticing the above did a treatment of Esha 200 - fungus, finrot and bacteria treatment
Done Immediately once noticed

December 2021 - Fish still dying - mainly peppered Corey's …. Fins fine though so doesn’t appear to be any attack also fish left are all very peaceful. (Neons, rosey tetra, penguin tetra, 3 female gouramis and two Siamese algea eaters)

Sought advice from internet

advice 1 : “your filter is poor for your tank”
action: changed filter to Fluval FX4 spent £200 hoping this was the solution (took all media from old and ran in conjunction for fortnight)

advice 2: “your nitrates are high”
action: water change frequency increased but felt like it wasn’t this as my tank is the same as my tap water and they’ve tolerated this for a year

To add to this I have ottos in my tank who have been there since the start and are still fine now.
I feel like if all this was a water problem then they would have died first as they are so sensitive

advice 3: “your decorations may be leaching”
action ; stripped tank bare, no change

advice 4: “your API kit is faulty”
action: bought new kit - same readings, water fine

advice 5: “your coreys aren’t getting food”
action: they are as I use sinking food and check
Took a body to pet store who said he didn’t look skinny or fat

advice 6: “you’re overfeeding”
action: definitely not my fish are on the right side of slim.
One feed per day and skip one day per week. Once a week blood worm treat

advice 7: “you don’t have enough oxygen in the tank”
action : new filter creates more flow and I’ve always had an air stone

advice 8: “your heater might not be working propel and cooking fish”
action: added second thermometer to check

advice 9: “your PH is high”
action - ph has always been high and was told not to chase

in summary absolutely nothing is changing and it’s a total mystery

There’s something going on in my tank and I have no idea what to do except let all my fish die. I have 4 coreys left now and fear these will all start to die over the next few weeks

It’s just so odd it’s mainly the coreys - I had small neon tetra and sensitive ottos who are all doing fine

Then today during a water change

Today
- Corey died. No signs of blisters or red gills - no reason at all
This Corey had been lethargic and floating occasionally over the last few daysb

- One female gourami has died, oddest thing she went from totally happy to in a complete panic and bloated and died within a few hours after the water change
She was hugely bloated when she died
Other female gouramis are fine

- One Siamese algea eater is literally bleeding to death in my tank (photo) looks like he’s cut himself badly but how on Earth can this be my luck

Im not sure I expect any reply to this as if I was reading this I wouldn’t know what to suggest so not expecting anything but just in case anyone else went through this I thought I would just ask

Photos
1. Corey died today
2. Siamese algea eater bleeding now
3. Treatment after mouth rot
4. Fish with mouth rot
5. Gouramis that were returned
6. Tap water nitrates
7. Corey from few months ago

Your nitrates are pretty high, they look to be around 80, the reccomended is under 30 ppm. What's happening is very unusual though, could we see a picture of the tank?

 

I'm sorry to hear you've had so many heartaches, especially after working so diligently to make things right. The following are my thoughts after more than 4 decades of fish keeping. I hope you find something that helps.

In my experience fish adjust to higher nitrate levels. During my lazy years I let my tanks go 2 or 3 months without water changes and the nitrates pegged the 160 level on the test card. (when I eventually checked) The existing fish who were in there for years were fine. So I highly doubt your 40-60 level is suddenly causing all these problems after your fish were doing well all year.

I will say that adding new fish to these conditions won't end well.

You stated losing fish after todays water change. I know it's popular to advise lots of (large) water changes but as you have found it doesn't always end well. If your ammonia and nitrites are 0, and nitrates are at your normal level there is no reason to ramp up the water changes, especially when it is causing fish deaths. If it is some type of water source issue water changes will only make things worse.

Medicating entire tanks for anything never ended well for me. It seemed to always make things worse. Thankfully I've not had many problems so it's been easy to avoid medications entirely. But I too would favor the quarantine tank for any ill fish. It's still lots of stress on a fish with a low chance of saving them (in my experience) but at least it won't upset the entire tank.

Best wishes.

 

The Siamese algae eater looks like it is infected with camallanus worms (highly contagious) levamisole is the only successful treatment I’m aware of. I don’t think it’s advisable to mix different gourami together, hopefully someone can chime in on that.

I agree with GlennO about adding a ton of live plants to help with the high nitrates. Kudos to you for not giving up! There are a lot of amazing/experienced people on this site who will help get this sorted.

Get a quarantine tank!!!! The best advice I was ever given.

 

Wow
I never expected so many people to reply
Thank you so much

here’s a photo of my tank this morning (it’s having its last dose of medicine)
I’m sorry I got nervous about the Siamese algea eater as I desperately want him to survive
Last night he was bleeding out and both of them had gone a grey colour but he’s lasted the night and they look well so I added a spot of treatment for his wounds.

From the above I’ve learned/ will action

1. Pet store today and more real plants to soak up nitrates

2. My constant water changes may not be helping. Go to 25% a week with a vaccumm

3. My fish especially my rosey tetra are stressed.
I agree everyone has been pale for about 2 months now and I don’t know why

4. My SAE May have highly contagious worms, can I ask what gives that away so I can treat and look into that ?

5. I shouldn’t have mixed my gourami - they are gone now but I didn’t realise that so thank you

6. My constant medicating hasn’t helped. So this morning won’t have helped either ‍♀️I will stop this thank you
I have a spare tank for quarantine and will use this in future but it felt like it was every fish that was sick so I did the whole tank

7. Questions about aggression.
I did with the gouramis towards the coreys and so I removed the gouramis
I now see the Rosey tetra chase one another a lot - the pet store said add more to reduce aggression which is when the one that had mouth rot got introduced ! So I’m back to only 4 now as the two new died
The SAE chase one another but they are definitely playing - they are my two favourite fish in here so playful and follow each other round all day - hence why I don’t want to lose the one

Photos of my tank attached
The decorations went back in pretty quick when the fish didn’t stop dying
There are only two Amazon sword in there - the rest are silk. I will go to the pet store today and get lots more and remove silk

One final question as I’m clutching at straws
My moss balls are 12 months old
I spin them weekly and they look great. They couldn’t be part of the problem could they ?
I know people say they don’t last long ?

 

Fish keeping can be challenging, keep going you’ll get there. The best thing to do is not panic and research everything before making a change ! There’s lots of articles on callamnous worms on here, use the search feature in the top right and you’ll find sooooo much info on pretty much everything.

I agree plants are the way forward, if you can find larger floating plants they are great at sucking up nitrates. Your swords are looking lovely !

I believe you have a mix of neon tetras and cardinal tetras by the way from that pic.

 

There's such a HUGE learning curve with fish keeping. It's a never ending learning cycle, but that part of why I expect ppl enjoy it.

The biggest hurdle : asking for advice, getting it and trying to apply it. So, don't feel discouraged.

The ppl here saved my bacon 2 years ago & I'm forever thankful. So much knowledge here and they really care... about fishes ( yes, yes, ppl too but FISHES! )

Your moss balls are fine. I doubt they cause an issue. half the time I don't even rinse mine monthly. They're just part of the tank eco-system.

 

First of all, you need to fix your source water. Do you know why the city water has 40ppm of nitrates? That's very high and not suitable for fishkeeping.

Long term exposure to nitrate can cause all sorts of growth issues. There's been quite a few studies done on nitrate effects on fish...

 

If you of go the live plant route for reducing nitrates, pay attention to which plants you get. Fast growing ones work best, residually floaters or ones that touch the surface because being able to "breath" from the air is easier than underwater for plants. Plants like java fern and anubias are pretty and hardy but slow growing and won't reduce nitrates much, at least in my experience.

 

Even if you don't keep them in the long run, always start your tank with floating plants. They are very effective and lots of fish love them to hide from the *sun*. Praise the sun.
Add way more plants to the rest as well. It helps in so many ways. Absorbs nasty stuff from the water, creates hiding places which greatly reduces stress for fish and also creates more food for your bottom feeders. Add some snails, they do weird stuff in the tank when you don't watch them, it makes the tank a better place. I don't know how many fish you had when you had the most but it looks to me like you were pretty near to the limit especially with that little underwater flora. Eliminate Flourish Excel from your products, it doesn't do anything for your tank and mighht even be one of the problems. I have heavy planted tanks with and without C02 and don't use liquid carbon. Its probably a culmination of small problems that led to the problems and too many changes in a short time. But I really think that plants LOTS OF PLANTS are a good starting point to avoid alot of problems later on.

 

How frustrating and heartbreaking! I wish you all the best in getting your tank and it’s inhabitants back to healthier and happier place for you all.

The suggestions for use of more live plants and in particular floating is sound. Plus floating plants will get their night time oxygen needs from outside the tank. You could have been experiencing low oxygen overnight (which would stress fish and not be obvious) but as others have pointed out it’s probably a combo of things.

I’d also suggest adding or increasing porous stone (pumice or lava rock) to your filter. Example: Seachem Matrix. I have goldfish so looked into non plant alternatives for nitrate reduction. Porous stone/media gives anaerobic bacteria somewhere to live. My nitrates now hold steady around 5ppm between water changes and my fish are piglets (feed 2-3 times a day). I’m not saying do this instead of plants just another option for you to explore.

Last thought: you posted pics and was wondering if background is just a vinyl (out of tank) or a 3D in tank background. It’s very lovely looking but had looked into 3D sometime back myself and decided against because reviews stated people had experienced unexplained fish death and background was only thing different. Some sort of issue probably related to chemicals off gasing or leaching into water.

Best of luck!

 

Plants, plants, plants please!!! Dont forget about hornwort! It will grow super fast floating or planted. Please dont give up! Nitrates in the water can be the envey of some tank keepers. Sounds like you have plenty of filtration, air, and water change/cleaning schedule. Keep at it and please dont give up! Try some plants, just steer clear of duck weed.

 

advice 9: “your PH is high”
action - ph has always been high and was told not to chase

What is your pH? How high is it?

High pH tanks have certain challenges.

 

Lots of info given by the good members here.

So I will only add this. Fast growing plants will handle nitrates for you as said in the above posts. The fastest in my view are the mosses. Java, and Christmas moss come to mind. If you were a bit closer to me I could give you a bunch of Christmas moss. BUT know this, moss is very invasive and you will forever be thining it out.

 

To include in your list of things to address: 40% water change is not enough. Multiple 25% is not enough. Your water changes need to include a 50 plus % every water change or an even bigger one every few water changes. The math won't work to lower nitrates with anything under 50%.

 

Hi everyone

Given the fact that you took the time to reply to this I felt it was only right to provide an update- especially as it’s positive

I added a number of plants to my aquarium and things have improved
Fish have stopped dying and some have even had colour returned
I don’t think this is a sign that they needed hiding spaces because I had to remove my artificial silk plants to put these in and the artificial provides more hiding / less line of sight for aggression
So I do think it was high nitrates which the plants are now combatting

I look back now and I did have two large plants that looked like Hornwart but I don’t think it was and also more Amazon sword and I removed these because they made a mess in my sand, and maybe it was about 2 months later it all started to go wrong

I’m really hopeful this will continue to be the answer and for those who suggested this thank you so so much
Really thank you !!!!

 

Cool! What are your nitrate reading now?

 

Looks like you are in the U.K., most of the tap water is 40PPM plus nitrates, mine certainly is. If your doing regular water changes and not massively over feeding id be surprised if that was the cause of the immediate fish deaths as most scientific studies show that those levels are more then tolerable, and there are many very successful fish keepers in the U.K. who use tap water, your LFS most likely does too, maybe with the exception of Discus.

That said if you want to change your water from the source look at the Pozzani nitrate filter. It will take your tap water down to about 5ppm or less. You can plumb it into your pipe work or I just used a hose from my tap when I used it.

 

It's great your tank is doing better. I had an incident about a year and a half ago that i refer to as the "big die off". I have no idea what caused it and just a very few of my fish survived. I wound up having to remove everything from the tank and did a "super clean" of the empty tank with a very small amount of bleach and lots of water and multiple rinses. I then pretty much started from scratch with all new decor, etc. I only reused what i could clean. It was very stressful but i haven't had an issue since and I still have no idea what caused it.

 

advice 1 : “your filter is poor for your tank”
advice 2: “your nitrates are high”
advice 3: “your decorations may be leaching”
advice 4: “your API kit is faulty”
advice 5: “your coreys aren’t getting food”
advice 6: “you’re overfeeding”
advice 7: “you don’t have enough oxygen in the tank”
advice 8: “your heater might not be working propel and cooking fish”
advice 9: “your PH is high”

#1 FX should be mighty fine filtration so we will say #1 is not the issue.
#2 If your tank and tap are running the same high nitrate level you should:
1. stop doing water changes after you get a bunch of live plants in your tank to sponge the nitrates.
2. Get a cheap RO from amazon so you can take up doing water changes again. I suspect the RO may also fix your problem for a different reason.
3. While there are fish that are nitrate sensitive in my experience corries are not one of them. In fact gunning up the nitrates before a big water change is a great way to get them to breed.
#3 If you bought them at a fish shop I'd like to believe the chances of leaching are low.
#4 How old is your kit? If it is new I'd say it is probably not faulty. Does it have an expiration date?
#5-6 Well you really can't have 5 and 6 at once. so lets say it is neither of these. Starving fish look rough, you should know if they are starving. Do the corries get sinking pellets? My corries thankfully love the cheap Wardleys shrimp pellets.
#7 Corries are air eaters who will happily live in hypoxic conditions that will kill any nonspecialized fish (labyrinth, lung, air eater, bowfin, etc.) so this is not the issue.
#8 a heater going crockpot is usually a hard kill on the whole tank. It is not a slow process.
#9. How high is your PH? Over 9?

Have you checked your chloramines?
Cities will sometimes shift from chlorine to chloramine because it is cheaper. When they do this fish keepers lose fish. Discus whirling disease seems to actually be chloramine poisoning.
Chloramines also seem to kill the bottom dwellers first. You are losing cories mainly.
If this is the case an RO should fix you up.
In the short term do you use Prime or Safe on your water? This bandaids a multitude of sins. At your tank size I'd say you want Prime instead of Safe as it brings a little more to the party and is easier to dose for small tanks. Prime should hit both chloramines and Nitrates.
You could run Prime'd water forever instead of getting and RO.. that is up to you.

 

Consider adding a UV Sterilizer (and since you have a fluval fx4) i would do the uv-c inline clarifier for the filter for external filteration.

Ill come back to this thread and try to add more later but one small tip is to be careful when medicating cories since they' can be sensitive to certain medications. (Salt is one of them they're not good with). Though cories have strong immune systems comparability to many other tropical freshwater fish, however certain medications may be bad for them

Also if not a RO system you could try using grocery store bought gallons of RO water (pretty cheap should be under a dollar and probably under 50 cents depending on your area) but i just dont see how efficient that wil be for 240l

 

Good point on scaleless fish and their sensitivities.
I didn't see

Store give me an antibacterial treatment and salt

the first time.
I'm not a salt person aside from a few dips. That said, salt can fry your corries (or other scaleless fish always google before treating scaleless fish). I'm a little that your fish shop recommended that to treat them. If they suggest a copper treatment next, never talk to them again.
..Or be nice and let the manager know the employees are handing out fatal advice.