?? Re: Apistogramma, inbreeding & Size difference

tnrsmomma

Hi! I have a few questions, so i apologize in advance for this being long and appreciate any infoor advice you can give me. I am new to breeding apistos and to breeding fish in general. I bought 3 juveniles and one adult male cacatuoides at the lfs last week, that all came from the same breeder. I figure it's safe to assume that the juveniles are siblings and the adult may be related as well. The dominant juvie male and the female seem to have paired off. I am 90% sure the 3rd juvie is a subdom male. The dominant male chases him away and occasionally the female chases him too. All 3 little ones are still in QT together at the moment, but I've ordered a divider for the tank. The adult male is separate. I also have a female I bought at a different lfs 4 or 5 months ago, who I'm guessing is around 8 or nine months old. She was just shy of an inch when we got her and is about 1.5 inches now.

I've noticed that most lfs' sell them as pairs and some people seem to buy multiple fish in one batch and see which ones pair off naturally from that group. I assume that often, the fish bought all from one batch, from a local breeder are siblings. Is it common practice to let siblings pair off and breed? Does it result in degradation of quality or health in the offspring?

Another question. I have yet to find a source for "breed standards" aka a specific description of what good quality cockatoo apisto looks and acts like. I would like to know that before allowing my fish to spawn. Any sources you can recommend?

If they are good enough to breed, who do I breed to whom? my current options are:

1. put the dominant juvenile male with my original female to see if they pair up.

2. Put the dominant juvie male and juvie female in with my original female for a small harem.

3. Leave the new juvenile pair together in their own tank and put the new adult male with my original female. I am worried about the size difference though. My female is still quite small, approx 1.5 inches and the adult male is about 3.5. I know there is always a size difference between males and females but he seems so huge compared to her. Am I just being a worrywart?

4. Put the subdom male with my original female and see if he colors up more, and if so, let them breed.

What would you do?



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Flyfisha

Hi tnrsmomma,
You ask what I would do not what anyone
7313B471-A461-472A-B590-26BDB555F6E4.jpeg else says works for them , right?
I have this species that had fry last week.
My way is one female and one male. As soon as you have fry remove the male. Next time I will remove the female as well as between the two of them the snacked on all the fry.
By all means if you want to have more than two fish in a tank do so but I strongly suggest you be ready to remove an odd fish. Before it is stressed to death. I am told a large tank by members of this site works for two females and one male. Local breeders say just two in a tank. I have seen no aggression from the female of this species.

My female is one quarter the size of the male , that is normal.

As far as if a fish is good enough looking to breed . IMO work with what you have.
 
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tnrsmomma

Hi tnrsmomma,
You ask what I would do not what anyone
7313B471-A461-472A-B590-26BDB555F6E4.jpeg else says works for them , right?
I have this species that had fry last week.
My way is one female and one male. As soon as you have fry remove the male. Next time I will remove the female as well as between the two of them the snacked on all the fry.
By all means if you want to have more than two fish in a tank do so but I strongly suggest you be ready to remove an odd fish. Before it is stressed to death. I am told a large tank by members of this site works for two females and one male. Local breeders say just two in a tank. I have seen no aggression from the female of this species.

My female is one quarter the size of the male , that is normal.

As far as if a fish is good enough looking to breed . IMO work with what you have.


Lovely boy!

Thanks for your input and advice. I appreciate it! It is good to hear from people who have more experience than I do. I ordered a divider for the quarantine tank holding the trio of juveniles. I will separate the subdominant male with the divider so he wont get hurt. I appreciate your input on the size difference. My husband and I are quite attached to the first little female we bought a few months ago. The idea of her being hurt by the large male was worrisome. I think we will test out putting the large male in with her, after he is done being quarantined, and just watch them carefully. The long term plan is to have each pair in a separate 10 or 20 gallon tank. I had thought that as juveniles, they would be ok quarantining together. They came from the same tank at the store. But I suppose the store tank has less territory to fuss over and many more fish to spread the aggression. I may be over thinking it all, fussing about who goes with whom when they are ready to spawn. I tend to get a bit anxious when trying new things.

I guess there is something to be said for learning with the fish that I have, regardless of quality but is that ethical? You are right that we all have to start somewhere. Is it ok to create low quality fish for the sake of practice? My fish do not appear to be deformed in anyway. I think they are pretty, but I am new to keeping this species. They may be horrible or they may be wonderful examples of the species ideal for all i know, but the fact is that I am just too inexperienced and new to gauge it without a baseline to compare them to.

Would breeding them be considered the same as breeding healthy good tempered dogs as family dogs, even though they arent good enough to be show dogs? or would it equate more to a backyard breeder or a puppy mill? I dont want to be irresponsible with living creatures. aaaand there I go, probably over thinking it more. lol
 
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Flyfisha

In my country ( Australia) we have a limited supply of certain cichlids that are no longer allowed to be imported into the country. We have some strong ethical rules in the national body about mixing species. Or breeding the same species that originate from a different waterway but have slightly different markings etc. Hybrids is the description used for these fish from different species.
However when it comes to line breeding the same species together to make a “better” or new colour it is encouraged. ( guppies ,betta )
To put it another way mixing dog breeds is acceptable because they are the same species.

Mixing a donkey and horse to produce a mule is not because they are different species.

What you have are fish of the same species. Breeding them is considered totally acceptable .

Breeding a flowerhorn that is a mix of 3 different species is frowned upon . A flowerhorn can’t be taken to auction in Australia. A shop selling a flowerhorn can not be a sponsor of a club.

I believe the US clubs has a different level of acceptance of breeding mixed species like flowerhorn, blood parrot, etc.?
You have nothing to worry about breeding the same species.
Joining your local club ( aquarium Society) is something I recommend to every fish keeper.

The fry of Apistogramma are tiny . They will need live foods as there first meal as they will not eat or recognise dry food.
 
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tnrsmomma

In my country ( Australia) we have a limited supply of certain cichlids that are no longer allowed to be imported into the country. We have some strong ethical rules in the national body about mixing species. Or breeding the same species that originate from a different waterway but have slightly different markings etc. Hybrids is the description used for these fish from different species.
However when it comes to line breeding the same species together to make a “better” or new colour it is encouraged. ( guppies ,betta )
To put it another way mixing dog breeds is acceptable because they are the same species.

Mixing a donkey and horse to produce a mule is not because they are different species.

What you have are fish of the same species. Breeding them is considered totally acceptable .

Breeding a flowerhorn that is a mix of 3 different species is frowned upon . A flowerhorn can’t be taken to auction in Australia. A shop selling a flowerhorn can not be a sponsor of a club.

I believe the US clubs has a different level of acceptance of breeding mixed species like flowerhorn, blood parrot, etc.?
You have nothing to worry about breeding the same species.
Joining your local club ( aquarium Society) is something I recommend to every fish keeper.

The fry of Apistogramma are tiny . They will need live foods as there first meal as they will not eat or recognise dry food.

That is really helpful perspective! Thank you very much. You have eased my mind. I am so excited to have these fish, to enjoy their personalities and beauty, while I keep learning and breed them.

I will see if there are any fish clubs in my area that I can get involved with. That is a good idea.

I started my first infusoria culture a few days ago. Hoping to get the hang of it before anyone spawns. I also ordered cultures of micro worms and vinegar eels. The tanks I will be putting the pairs in are well established, with live plants to hide amongst, lots of leaf litter, driftwood, biofilm and bits of algae. Hopefully that will be a good environment for the fry to grow successfully. My lfs sells live black worms I can feed the parents and I have a variety of frozen foods, spirulina flakes, repashy spawn and grow, bug bites, and repashy grub pie.

I am so enamored with these beautiful little fish! Thanks again for your help
 
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