Raising Apistogramma Fry.

Initiate

Hi,
I've noticed my apistogramma caucatoides triple red pair have recently produced some fry, the female is doing a great job caring for them and the male seems to have fertilised the majority of the eggs which I'm surprised about for them being first time parents. My questions are:

1. Are the mouths of the fry big enough to eat baby brine shrimp or do I need to feed infusoria?
2. Should I move the fry into a breeder box so I can more easily feed them and prevent the parents from eating the fry?

Any other tips would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
 

Rye3434

Ive been fine w just live baby brine

I would move them into a breeder box, I recently lost my last batch due to parents getting hungry lol
 

Flyfisha

Congratulations Initiate
If you can’t just move the parents and other adults out of the tank with the fry then yes move the fry .

I was recently made aware that brine shrimp come in different sizes depending on the part of the world that species originally came from. The biggest brine shrimp are close to being to big for new born cacs. Vinegar eels or even micro worms should be small enough if you can’t find some dirty old moss full of Infusorea. Surprisingly mashed up hard boiled chicken egg mixed with water into a milky liquid is eaten by some fry. Just a few drops.

If you have to use a breeder box add lots of the oldest moss or plant material you have. Leaf litter etc. This will hopefully transfer some Infusorea.

It will be less than a week before they will be able to eat brine shrimp.
From personal experience don’t feed to much brine shrimp at one time. Feed a little often ,around 4 or 5 times a day minimum. Allowing the fry to eat so much LIVE BABY BRINE they explode is what you need to avoid.

Caching the fry to move them. As rough as it may seem using a vacuum to suck up the fry is recommended practice. I would avoid a fish net in the first month or so.
 

yukondog

I have no problem with my Cac. fry eating live BBS from the start [after the wiggler stage]. What size tank are they in and are there any other fish? Do you have a spare tank cycled for the male or fry? Do you have a way of getting rid of them? Sorry for all the questions but it does help.
If there first batch I normally leave the fry and parents alone, it's a test batch, I like to see how the parents interact with each other and first fry.
If I want to breed them than I normally take the male out and leave the female with the fry for about 6 weeks
 

Initiate

I have no problem with my Cac. fry eating live BBS from the start [after the wiggler stage]. What size tank are they in and are there any other fish? Do you have a spare tank cycled for the male or fry? Do you have a way of getting rid of them? Sorry for all the questions but it does help.
If there first batch I normally leave the fry and parents alone, it's a test batch, I like to see how the parents interact with each other and first fry.
If I want to breed them than I normally take the male out and leave the female with the fry for about 6 weeks
I've got the pair in a 17g tank with a trio of tuxedo guppies, planning to get them moved as soon as possible just need heaters to finish setting up other tanks. The female is very protective of the fry keeping both the guppies and male away. It's been three days since I noticed the fry, I've had problems hatching brine so they haven't eaten yet but theres still quite a few still alive.

Thanks
 

Flyfisha

Have you tried a very very small bit from a hard boiled chicken egg. ? The yellow yoke mixed with tank water in a cup . Then a couple of drops with an eye dropper if you have one. But such a tiny amount is needed. About a match head of egg per feeding.

What could be wrong with the brine shrimp hatching?

Warm water this time of the year no problem.
3 teaspoons of table salt in 1-5 litres of UNCONDITIONED tap water.
Add air if you have it . No air stone just a hose.

Are the brine shrimp eggs out of date? They should be stored sealed in a plastic bag in the refrigerator, especially in this time of year.
 

Initiate

Have you tried a very very small bit from a hard boiled chicken egg. ? The yellow yoke mixed with tank water in a cup . Then a couple of drops with an eye dropper if you have one. But such a tiny amount is needed. About a match head of egg per feeding.

What could be wrong with the brine shrimp hatching?

Warm water this time of the year no problem.
3 teaspoons of table salt in 1-5 litres of UNCONDITIONED tap water.
Add air if you have it . No air stone just a hose.

Are the brine shrimp eggs out of date? They should be stored sealed in a plastic bag in the refrigerator, especially in this time of year.
I've had the bag sitting under the stand, not fully sealed so that might have been a problem. I've had air, unconditioned water and a lamp to heat the water a bit more. Some of the brine had hatched this morning, the majority had not though. I feed the fry, I can see their bellies are orange so they've eaten which is great. I have no idea how they have survived until this point. I'll keep working on the brine and hopefully we'll have some better success.

Thanks
 

Flyfisha

Pink bellies is great news. Thanks for the update.
 

Initiate

Flyfisha how many times a day should I feed the brine shrimp? When the bellies lose their orange?

Thanks
 

Flyfisha

I have personally killed very very young apistogramma fry by what I believe to be feeding a large amount of LIVE baby brine in one meal. The result was very very very large pink bellies. They were floating on the surface. I don’t know if it’s what happened? I don’t know, I just don’t know but it only happened once . It killed all but 4 fry from that week /10 day old batch of 30 ish? .

I currently feed all fry tanks 4 times a day . Sometimes more than 4 times. My wife gets involved as well. Sometimes the daily brine shrimp is all gone by 4 o’clock in the afternoon. I also feed dry dust , new life spectrum fry powder. And micro worms. Any adult dry food can be crushed to a very fine powder and used.

As soon as possible you MUST train (any) fry to eat dry foods. It is possible to raise even guppies to adulthood who have never learnt to eat dry foods. I am told they will starve before eating dry food. It seems unlikely but apparently it can happen?


Yes when the bellies lose their Orange sounds about right?
A little and often.

To help train fry to recognise dry foods.
Start adding a little dust into the brine shrimp as you feed.

Eventually even grinding up live bb into a paste with dry powder added if necessary.

Have you brought a good strainer / Sieve ?
Ziss make 3 with the 0.3 size being the only one suitable for bb.
 

Linda1234

I would leave the frys with the parents the first couple of times to see if it works out; always better if parents will raise them. Also if you do move the frys to a sep container; you have to keep it very clean; this means siphoning out uneaten food between feedings else it will decay and cause an ammonia spike which can kill the frys. I use a hatcher from brineshrimp direct which is kind of nice because it doesn't require a sieve. Alternatively you can buy decapsulated eggs which will not leave egg particles behind. Once the frys get a few weeks old you can switch to dry foods - again keep the container very clean.
 

Initiate

Hey,
Thanks for all your help so far, the fry are doing well think I've got around 20. The tank I have is 5ft long and divided into four sections, the dividers are glass so the pairs in each section are able to see each other, do you think this will make them feel unsafe and therefore not breed?

Thanks
 

Flyfisha

Sorry Initiate I have zero experience with divided tanks and don’t want to guess.

I can say some of my tanks are so close together the fish can see what’s going on next door with just two panels of glass between them, which is very similar? Sometimes I put plastic card between tanks because I have thought about it.

I believe some species of fish are smart enough to realise where a tank finishes . Some are frightened by wiping the outside of the glass and some are definitely not.

It is said a background can help a fish feel secure?

I have had apistogramma breed in tanks without backgrounds and in a lounge tank that’s kind of in the walkway.


To answer your question.
I think it will work just as is.
If not in time you could slide coloured plastic sheeting on one side.

Question, that maybe I don’t need an answer for.
Do the males spend excessive amounts of time flaring at each other?
 

Linda1234

They will definitely display to each other (sort of like betta do); males trying to attract females and warning other males to stay way.... It might even do some good because it will give the males something to do other than beating up non-breeding females (which is why folks often use dither fishes).
I have personally killed very very young apistogramma fry by what I believe to be feeding a large amount of LIVE baby brine in one meal. The result was very very very large pink bellies. They were floating on the surface. I don’t know if it’s what happened? I don’t know, I just don’t know but it only happened once . It killed all but 4 fry from that week /10 day old batch of 30 ish? .
Frys will not over eat; however they are extremely sensitive to bad water quality if you were over-feeding them and not quickly removing uneaten food; the food will decay and kill the frys. I've done this more than once when I first started raising frys. Also if you don't remove all the shells from bbs; bit of shell pieces can cause problem if they are small enough for the frys to swallow.
 

Flyfisha

Fast forward to 3 minutes 40 seconds if you want Initate? I know this is a different species to apistogramma and I did not believe it possible ether. But having had the death once from over feeding live food to tiny tiny fry it’s not something I would want anyone else to go through.

 

Initiate

Sorry Initiate I have zero experience with divided tanks and don’t want to guess.

I can say some of my tanks are so close together the fish can see what’s going on next door with just two panels of glass between them, which is very similar? Sometimes I put plastic card between tanks because I have thought about it.

I believe some species of fish are smart enough to realise where a tank finishes . Some are frightened by wiping the outside of the glass and some are definitely not.

It is said a background can help a fish feel secure?

I have had apistogramma breed in tanks without backgrounds and in a lounge tank that’s kind of in the walkway.


To answer your question.
I think it will work just as is.
If not in time you could slide coloured plastic sheeting on one side.

Question, that maybe I don’t need an answer for.
Do the males spend excessive amounts of time flaring at each other?

Both the females and males in each pair like to flare up at one another through the glass, not excessively and they seem to do it less now that they've been in there a while.
 

Linda1234

Fast forward to 3 minutes 40 seconds if you want Initate? I know this is a different species to apistogramma and I did not believe it possible ether. But having had the death once from over feeding live food to tiny tiny fry it’s not something I would want anyone else to go through.

I watched the video; it seems odd that he is concern about 'over-feeding' given all the 'live' food in the tank from the peat....
 

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