Quick Question About Cycle

[Rcslade124]

I'm doing a fish in cycle on 2 tanks. Used tetra safe start on both only been about a week. Am getting prime tomorrow. Both tanks are equal. Looks like .5 ammonia 0 nitrite should I do a water change or let it ride another day?

 

[MrBryan723]

Maybe a small one. You want to keep it around .5 and not much higher or lower. Ammonia can climb rapidly so it's better to be safe than to wake up to dead fishies.

 

[Rcslade124]

Ok I'll do 10%. I haven't used safestart for about 3 days. I was adding it to water changes noobie mistake. I will keep testing for 2 weeks and see if I get nitrites. I didnt test nitrate tonight I don't think I'm there yet.

 

[MrBryan723]

Add it to your filter and turn off your filter for about 10-15 minutes to get the most out of it. It's actually pretty useless otherwise.

 

[Rcslade124]

I do I put it all through filter now but don't shut it off. But I am trying to not use it until I add more fish

 

[MrBryan723]

I do I put it all through filter now but don't shut it off. But I am trying to not use it until I add more fish

You can get around that by feeding to your new stock levels for about a week before adding the new fish.

 

[jdhef]

Do not do a water change!!!

Your readings are about where I would expect 2 or 3 days in. You need to give SafeStart a full 14 days to cycle the tank. If you do a water change or add Prime the SafeStart will fail.

This is why it is recommended not to test your water for the 14 days SafeStart needs to cycle a tank. The readings can make you panic and do something that will cause the TSS to fail

 

[Rcslade124]

I have done 3 water changes adding safe start straight to the filter. So I have dosed a lot of safe start. I am giving it 2 weeks. And will see how it goes. Fingers crossed never knew all the steps involved in cycling. I just don't want the 2 tetras and betta to be miserable.

 

[MrBryan723]

Do not do a water change!!!

Your readings are about where I would expect 2 or 3 days in. You need to give SafeStart a full 14 days to cycle the tank. If you do a water change or add Prime the SafeStart will fail.

This is why it is recommended not to test your water for the 14 days SafeStart needs to cycle a tank. The readings can make you panic and do something that will cause the TSS to fail

Adding prime yes, bad idea. But Safe start is just bottled bacteria and will die after a few days in the water column if it doesn't attach to anything. Why would water changes do anything to it?

 

[Jimmie93]

If the tanks has no fish you don't directly have to do water changes unless something is building up from the feeding source. When I cycle new tanks I just leave them and let them run for a few weeks to a month and then do a big water change before I add any type of fish.

 

[Rcslade124]

There is fish in already I have already ruined that part. So that's why I worry about any spikes hurting the fish. But I'm going to wait and check water every couple days unless I see any stress signs. I'm just nervously trying to make this good for the fish

 

[Donthemon]

Safestart gives inaccurate readings. That’s why no testing or water changes for the 14 days. It contains an ammonia source and bacteria. Let it do its job. Usually the only times it doesn’t work is when the instructions are not followed. I have used it 3 or 4 times with success.

 

[Rcslade124]

I will give it the 2 weeks. I'm just trying to do it the best I can for the fish thanks for info Will post in 2 weeks

 

[Jimmie93]

There is fish in already I have already ruined that part. So that's why I worry about any spikes hurting the fish. But I'm going to wait and check water every couple days unless I see any stress signs. I'm just nervously trying to make this good for the fish

0.5 ammonia isn't going to kill the fish but if it gets higher then that I would do a small water change like 20 percent for safety and continue doing them every few days until the tank is fully cycled and at safe levels.

 

[Momgoose56]

Why do people think Prime is such a bad idea to use when using TSS or any other bacteria culture?
Where did that idea come from?
Unless the bacteria culture manufacturer states specifically NOT to use Prime or any product containing hydrosulfite salts or hydroxymethanesulfonate with their product, it isn't contraindicated.
One note though: manufacturers of most bacteria starters do state that you need to wait at least 24 hours after adding any dechlorinator before adding the bacteria culture to the tank.
You are right Rcslade124. When you are doing a fish-in cycle, first consideration is to protect the fish.
What is your pH?
One thing that makes ammonia more toxic is a high pH. So regardless of whether you are using a bacteria starter or not, use Prime when you have ammonia levels of .5 or higher and especially if your pH is 7.5 or higher.
Nitrites are even more toxic to fish than ammonia and are toxic at any level so when they start showing up, use the Prime.
Bacteria starters do not, in my perusal of all the different MSD's for a variety of different bacteria starters, contain added ammonia. If they did, it would have to be included, by law, in the Material Safety Data (MSD) information for that product. So far, in all the MSD's I've read, including the TSS MSD, ammonia is not listed.
Rcslade124, you are doing things right. (Except I don't think you are strictly following the directions on the TSS...lol!)
You are getting your tank cycled but you are also protecting your fish in the process. Keep doing water changes, until you get the Prime, to keep your ammonia at .5 or less. After you get the Prime, do water changes to keep the combined total of ammonia and nitrites at 1ppm or less and treat with Prime (follow the directions on the product) Test your tap water and your tank water pH so you know where that stands.
You're doing fine.

 

[jdhef]

The idea not to use Prime (or any other water conditioner comes from the manufacturer:
Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

 

[Momgoose56]

The idea not to use Prime (or any other water conditioner comes from the manufacturer:
Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

The only problem(s) I see with that statement is that it completely contradicts the statements by Seachem about their product. So, who do you believe? It also isn't listed on the Tetra SS product use guidelines provided on the product NOT to use the ingredients that are in Prime along with TSS in a tank.
If indeed Tetra does put ammonia in their product, why isn't it listed in the MSD for their product?
TSS also says this: "SafeStart Plus will finish the cycle within a few days, depending on where you are with it, how many fish you have and how much you are feeding" and we all know that's not true. I have yet to see any tank "finish the cycle within a few days" after using TSS. They also state "If fish are added at a proper rate, along with the SafeStart Plus, they won't experience any spikes in ammonia or nitrite." That too we know isn't true. Based on every single person I've advised and seen other people advise on this site, I've seen 0 (zero) people who have not had an ammonia spike after adding TSS regardless of when they've used it during their cycle.
So, I guess the decision to use a product comes down to this: do you base using a product purely on what a manufacture who sells it and claims the product does? Or do you use a product based on what your own investigation, experience, common sense and science, prove that it does?

 

[jamesw6810]

So, this isn’t scientific but my usage of TSS in a fishless cycle is broadly as below

When I first started trying to cycle my 15 gallon tall, I used Dr Tim’s one and only & his ammonia. Added 2ppm and the One and only, waited 6 weeks and pretty much nothing happened. Ammonia just didn’t reduce much at all, well it did but then when redosed it took forever. So..

I got bored and wanted to move the tank anyway to another area in dining room, whilst I re decorated the tank I then decided that it would look and probably perform better with a canister, so I ditched the fluval U2 I was using, media and everything, yes I went balls deep

Set up a new fluval 107 canister, new media which had a prefilter sponge, mech sponge, floss and bio rings. I then decided to give TSS a shot, working out quite well as I was off on hols for 5 days anyway

I dechlorinated with Aqua safe and waited about 8 hours, couldn’t be bothered to wait 24

I purchased 2 bottles (each say for 60 litres) smashed one in the canister, the other in the tank, waited an hour and then Dosed upto 2ppm with the dr Tim’s ammonia

Then, as I was away for 5 days just totally left it alone

When I returned, 2ppm had become 0.25, 0 nitrites and 40 nitrates (my base water is 0.0.10)

Dosed back to 2ppm, 3 days to 0, dosed again etc..and within 8 days I was removing 2ppm ammonia in about 18 hours.

I then water changed at 90%, I wasn’t getting fish for about another week so dosed again to 2ppm, 24 hours clear with nitrates climbing to about 20 and so on every day for the next week, all using prime to dechlor

So I guess I had a blank slate, with maybe a tiny bit of BB in the gravel and TSS totally worked for me, I topped up with dechlorinated water during the first week (day 6), it didn’t affect it, I didn’t wait 24 hours after dechlor and it didn’t affect it, I now have used prime for a water change and top ups, it’s still clearing 2ppm, fish in for 2 weeks now - 0,0,20

Dunno if this helps but essentially if you dose TSS, keep ammonia sensible and leave it alone, I’ve had success.

Now doing exactly the same in a 30 litre cube for a betta, other than I stole some filter media from the fluval canister and added to the dennerle nano filter which I modified to hold a course sponge, bio granules and a small amount of floss - didn’t affect a fairly immature cycle from the canister

Day 1 base levels 0,0,10
Added TSS (for 60 litres)
Added ammonia to 2ppm
Day 2-5 leave the heck alone
Day 6 - Amm 0.5, nitrI 0.5, nitra 40
Day 7 - Amm 0.25 nitrI 0.5 nitra 80
Day 8 - Amm 0 nitrI 0.25 nitra 8

In both instances, whacked the temp upto 28/29 degrees C

Again, might be useful but TSS is fine with prime (post cycled) , it’s fine with dechlor (after 8 hours) and it works if left well alone - what I think tetra don’t want you to do is add a dechlor that may give a skewed reading for the first few days and then panic, water change and remove the BB before it’s had chance to find a home - which is a different kettle of fish with a Fish in cycle but prime didn’t kill my cycle fishless and I didn’t do much panicking, only when I dropped a 2 litre jug on the dining room table when water changing...!

 

[Rcslade124]

1. Well I have loaded a lot of start chemicals into the tank. The 20 gallon I added a large bottle of safestart plus. Let it sit 4 days. Did a 10% water change added a bottle of another start product. 2 days later 25% and a small bottle of safe start.but haven't seen nitrites yet. I have a little high ph. Like 7.8. My tap tested .25 ammonia n 7.8 ph. I am thinking about using a water filter or buying distilled water for changes. I am waiting before I touch anything for atleast another 24 hrs. Hopefully I get some nitrites. I do have 1 amazon sword in the tank I think its helping some. I am trying to just keep the fish happy. I am already convinced I have about 3 weeks before I start stocking. I am going to get prime and use it after the next 24hrs is up if I see nitrites. Note to self faithless cycles from now on.

 

[Momgoose56]

1. Well I have loaded a lot of start chemicals into the tank. The 20 gallon I added a large bottle of safestart plus. Let it sit 4 days. Did a 10% water change added a bottle of another start product. 2 days later 25% and a small bottle of safe start.but haven't seen nitrites yet. I have a little high ph. Like 7.8. My tap tested .25 ammonia n 7.8 ph. I am thinking about using a water filter or buying distilled water for changes. I am waiting before I touch anything for atleast another 24 hrs. Hopefully I get some nitrites. I do have 1 amazon sword in the tank I think its helping some. I am trying to just keep the fish happy. I am already convinced I have about 3 weeks before I start stocking. I am going to get prime and use it after the next 24hrs is up if I see nitrites. Note to self faithless cycles from now on.

I suggest leaving your pH alone for now. It's perfect for cycling a tank and fine for most tropical fish. It may drop naturally a little after your tank cycles.

 

[Rcslade124]

Ok I'll watch for spikes In nitrites and then I'll start prime keeping combined at 1ppm. And hopefully on the homestretch

 

[jamesw6810]

Using TSS you may not see a nitrite spike, TSS contains a healthy amount (if viable) of nitrobacter, Nitrite eating bacteria.

Quite often these produce high levels of nitrate and nitrite are never seen

Don’t worry, just adjust your testing to Ammonia reduction and Nitrate production. I’d suggest Ammonia every 24 hours and Nitrate only when you see a reduction of 0.5ppm over dosage. Once ammonia reduces to 0/0.2 then have a check of Nitrites..

If nitrates increase then by default, nitrites will be being consumed, often at a quicker rate with TSS. Reducing nitrate only happens through water changes or a decent amount of planting

 

[Momgoose56]

Ok I'll watch for spikes In nitrites and then I'll start prime keeping combined at 1ppm. And hopefully on the homestretch

That sounds fine. I don't think anyone has mentioned this but it's known on fishlore--the thing about TSS is you may never see nitrites in a tank it's used in. Although the manufacturer won't disclose the species of nitrifying bacteria used in TSS (nitrosomonas oxidizes ammonia and nitrobacter oxidizes nitrites), the absence of a nitrite spike when using TSS suggests that there probably is some nitrobacter in TSS. It's in this way that TSS can significantly shorten the time it takes to cycle a tank.

 

[jdhef]

The only problem(s) I see with that statement is that it completely contradicts the statements by Seachem about their product. So, who do you believe? It also isn't listed on the Tetra SS product use guidelines provided on the product NOT to use the ingredients that are in Prime along with TSS in a tank.
If indeed Tetra does put ammonia in their product, why isn't it listed in the MSD for their product?
TSS also says this: "SafeStart Plus will finish the cycle within a few days, depending on where you are with it, how many fish you have and how much you are feeding" and we all know that's not true. I have yet to see any tank "finish the cycle within a few days" after using TSS. They also state "If fish are added at a proper rate, along with the SafeStart Plus, they won't experience any spikes in ammonia or nitrite." That too we know isn't true. Based on every single person I've advised and seen other people advise on this site, I've seen 0 (zero) people who have not had an ammonia spike after adding TSS regardless of when they've used it during their cycle.
So, I guess the decision to use a product comes down to this: do you base using a product purely on what a manufacture who sells it and claims the product does? Or do you use a product based on what your own investigation, experience, common sense and science, prove that it does?

I don't know how much time and money SeaChem puts into making sure their product doesn't cause SafeStart to fail. But I do believe that Tetra did spend the time and money to find that any water conditioner that removes chloramines (not just Prime) will cause their product to fail. I mean Tetra (sorta) crated the product and one would think that they would know more about TSS then SeaChem does. But like I said, it's not just Prime that will cause the TSS to fail, it's any water conditioner that removes chloramines, and as far as I know all water conditioners remove chloramines. But I suppose if you were sure you didn't have chloramines in your water and could find a water conditioner that does not remove chloramines, you could use that and not have to wait the 24 hours before adding TSS

 

[Rcslade124]

Yea I wait 24 to 48 hrs after using water conditioner

Update looks like .25 ammonis and maybe .25 nitrate.

Bettas 5 gallon is a little further from what I can tell. So far so good haha.