Quarantined Discus - Is That A Fungus?

esdwa
  • #1
I have new discus pair in quarantine for few days now and noticed one of them developed overnight something that looks like foggy part of the tail fin.

Could it be just result of mechanical abrasion as other fish is trying to nip this one occasionally. Or is it beginning of some disease? The subject looks gorgeous otherwise is very active and have great appetite.

Attached pictures with red marked part of the fin I am concerned about.

Ideas? Thank you.

_20180525_075311-503x505.JPG

_20180525_075219-644x792.JPG

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Rtessy
  • #2
Gorgeous fish, but unfortunately it does look like that may be an issue. I don't really know what it is, unfortunately, perhaps some kind of fungus, hopefully not columnaris. That being said, columnaris is unfortunately common, it's probably worth looking into. It can be treated with Furan 2 effectively. A less possible option would be costia, but it's relatively rare in tropical fish, mostly coldwater fish, but there are some tropical strains.
To me it looks more like columnaris than anything else I know.
 
finnipper59
  • #3
I have new discus pair in quarantine for few days now and noticed one of them developed overnight something that looks like foggy part of the tail fin.

Could it be just result of mechanical abrasion as other fish is trying to nip this one occasionally. Or is it beginning of some disease? The subject looks gorgeous otherwise is very active and have great appetite.

Attached pictures with red marked part of the fin I am concerned about.

Ideas? Thank you.
View attachment 441199
View attachment 441200
View attachment 441201
Since it's starting on the very tips of the tail fin, I would consider it to be from the bacteria that causes fin rot. I strongly recommend API Fin and Body Cure. Get it asap even if you have to mail order it. EBay has quick shipping and so does chewy
 
Rtessy
  • #4
This doesn't look like finrot to me. Definitely prepare for columnaris since it can wipe out a fully established tank in under a week. Even if it ends up being something else, columnaris would have to be treated for first.
 
finnipper59
  • #5
I would go ahead and treat for columnaris as Rtessy suggested. Even though I suspect fin rot, columnaris has been running rampant through the aquarium world like an epidemic over the past couple of months. I'm on this forum everyday and have been able to confirm Columnaris at least 4 or 5 times a week. Since you'll be treating for columnaris which is paracitic, if it's fin rot, that's bacterial. The best treatment for both at the same time is Paraguard. It takes care of both and won't harm the biofiltration.
This doesn't look like finrot to me. Definitely prepare for columnaris since it can wipe out a fully established tank in under a week. Even if it ends up being something else, columnaris would have to be treated for first.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #6
Thank you guys . I ordered both Furan and Body cure just in case for tomorrow delivery. And Paraguard as well.

Will any of these wipes out bioloads in tank filter?

p. s. Good thing it's QT tank.
 
finnipper59
  • #7
Individually they will do no harm. Usually there aren't many reactions between antibiotics and antiparacitic meds, so you should be good.
Thank you guys . I ordered both Furan and Body cure just in case for tomorrow delivery.

Will any of these wipes out bioloads in tank filter?

p. s. Good thing it's QT tank.
 
BobNJerry
  • #8
can you exchange the fish?
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #9
Would parasite look more like a spots or grains? This one looks like foggy fin, no significant difference across affected area. Would it then be fungus more likely?
 
finnipper59
  • #10
That's one of the difficulties in diagnosing a disease in fish. Sometimes when a pathogen infects a fish, you may actually see the fish's body response to it before you actually notice other signs. Ich is easy because you see the little colonies of the pathogen as white dots. Some pathogens will cause things like extra slime secretion of the area, a fish scratching itself against objects, loss of appetite, white stringy poop, fading of color, and some other symptoms. The initial symtom that I noticed was just on the clearer parts of the tail telling me fin rot. But columnaris is a microscopic parasite that can begin externally, but it could also start internally effecting organs. Even if I'm right about the fin rot, columnaris has nearly become an epidemic throughout the aquarium world over the past few months. Treating your Discus for columnaris won't hurt the fish and with columnaris becoming so common (and deadly), it's better in this case to be safer than sorry. If your fish losses it's appetite during paracite treatment, don't be alarmed. The fish will be fine for a couple days without eating. It doesn't always happen, but it is a possible side effect during paracite treatment.
Would parasite look more like a spots or grains? This one looks like foggy fin, no significant difference across affected area. Would it then be fungus more likely?
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #11
Last night, Apr 25th 6pm

_20180526_071720-989x1056.JPG

This morning, Apr 26th 7am

_20180526_071805-834x1232.JPG

_20180526_071901-786x854.JPG

Medicine are to be delivered today. Will start treatment immediately.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #12
Also, have UV sterilizer installed since yesterday. May not help here but won't hurt either.

DSC_1603-648x1152.JPG
 
finnipper59
  • #13
Also, have UV sterilizer installed since yesterday. May not help here but won't hurt either.
View attachment 441624
It's not fungus. FungI will eventually grow on any dead tissue from bacterial infection if left untreated. I'm glad your meds are coming today. And actually, you uv sterilizer will help in this situation because it will kill any bacteria that are free floating around in the water...so will the medications. It's a good idea to have a UV sterilizer in aquariums (once tanks have been cycled first).
 
Fashooga
  • #14
I don’t think this is columnaris. The fish in the picture doesn’t seem to be showing signs of weaknesses or any kind of lesions on the skin and it seems to be swimming well.

To me, an opinion, I think it’s regeneration of a fin after it’s been bitten or nicked itself on something.

The white spot in your “Apr 25th 6pm” photo (error?) shows more of a busted cartilage. Much like a human breaking his/her bone in the middle of the hand.

If the fish seems to be doing well and doesn’t show lesions, breathing well, no slimy film on the body and fins, eating normal and behaving normally why treat the fish for a condition that doesn’t have any symptoms as mentioned?

I think you need to continue to watch the fish. If it’s pooping fine and nothing seems out of the ordinary I would not medicate...unless you see the symptoms.
 
finnipper59
  • #15
Also, have UV sterilizer installed since yesterday. May not help here but won't hurt either.
View attachment 441624
I originally said yesterday that the condition looked like the beginning of fin rot. I went along with going ahead and doing the paracite treatment as just a precautionary possibility because it won't hurt the fish or the tank bio system. But I examined close ups of the tail and I still think treatment should be done with the antibiotics for fin rot. You can just hold off on the antiparacitic to see if the antibiotic doesn't work or the condition worsens.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #16
Thanks for great comments, I deeply appreciate all suggestions.

I have received API Fin & Body Care as well as Furan-2, both are antibiotics. In fact I am familiar with both, as first is just a doxycycline and the second is nitrofurazone. They are both used widely in human infection treatments depending on condition.
However, API clearly says the antibiotics may inhibit the biological filter which means the bacteria living in bioload may be reduced or removed from filter media.

Having said that and considering all the risks but also the fact that both fish including subject are acting very normal they are very energetic, vigorous and have a very good appetite with no sign of any disease whatsoever, I'm going to give it another day to see whether the spot on fin disappears as it could be a result of mechanical abrasion as one of you mentioned above or minor injury during nipping or chase which I observe occasionally.

I just took this additional picture and zoomed into the spot on the fin. It does look like affected cartilage in the fin but again I could be mistaken whether it's mechanical or bacterial. Will observe fish carefully during next 24 hours.

Either way, I have meds in stand by. It's long weekend and I am at home observing the fish.

_20180526_145305.JPG
 
finnipper59
  • #17
I wish this was the first pic you had sent. The enlightenment of the tails on the other pics would blur a little and I would have bet money that the fish had fin rot. But looking at this pic, there's nothing wrong with your fish...except for a dot less harmful than a zit!
Thanks for great comments, I deeply appreciate all suggestions.

I have received API Fin & Body Care as well as Furan-2, both are antibiotics. In fact I am familiar with both, as first is just a doxycycline and the second is nitrofurazone. They are both used widely in human infection treatments depending on condition.
However, API clearly says the antibiotics may inhibit the biological filter which means the bacteria living in bioload may be reduced or removed from filter media.

Having said that and considering all the risks but also the fact that both fish including subject are acting very normal they are very energetic, vigorous and have a very good appetite with no sign of any disease whatsoever, I'm going to give it another day to see whether the spot on fin disappears as it could be a result of mechanical abrasion as one of you mentioned above or minor injury during nipping or chase which I observe occasionally.

I just took this additional picture and zoomed into the spot on the fin. It does look like affected cartilage in the fin but again I could be mistaken whether it's mechanical or bacterial. Will observe fish carefully during next 24 hours.

Either way, I have meds in stand by. It's long weekend and I am at home observing the fish.
View attachment 441725
 
Fashooga
  • #18
I already stated my opinion. My Severum had a busted fin and it took about a month or two for it to heal. So I would continue to keep an eye on it.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #19
Believe or not...
the quarantine discus pair just laid eggs on the surface of the uv sterilizer...

Look some they both more than healthy fish. Look at pics below...

DSC_1609-648x1152.JPG

_20180526_164218.JPG
 
finnipper59
  • #20
WOW...congratulations. Don't forget that you only have about 3 days to get a small prefilter sponge or a ladies knee high nylon stocking to put over your filter intakes.
Believe or not...
the quarantine discus pair just laid eggs on the surface of the uv sterilizer...

Look some they both more than healthy fish. Look at pics below...
View attachment 441756
View attachment 441758
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #21
Thank you for the tip. Yes I was just thinking about protecting filter intakes. I also plan to turn off UV sterilizer.

I wonder which of these two laid these. I see a small tail sticking out from Leopard anus. Could it be indication of being responsible for this unexpected happiness? See photo.

Also, I noticed both fish coming one after another and blowing onto the fry... am I witnessing true couple parenthood?


_20180526_170119.JPG
 
finnipper59
  • #22
Yep. That's you female. She is definitely showing an ovapositor...give them some more alone time, she may not be finished.
Thank you for the tip. Yes I was just thinking about protecting filter intakes. I also plan to turn off UV sterilizer.

I wonder which of these two laid these. I see a small tail sticking out from Leopard anus. Could it be indication of being responsible for this unexpected happiness? See photo.

Also, I noticed both fish coming one after another and blowing onto the fry... am I witnessing true couple parenthood?

View attachment 441776
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #23
I will be updating how's this my miracle discus pair is doing in separate thread Discus After All, if anyone care to know what happens next.

Discus After All

Discus After All
Thanks for all the valuable comments. Will keep these in my book.
 
finnipper59
  • #24
I copied the url. I'm happy for you and I would enjoy seeing the progress. Especially how the babies finally look when the get their colors from the genetics of those 2 beautiful parents.
I will be updating how's this my miracle discus pair is doing in separate thread Discus After All, if anyone care to know what happens next.

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/discus-after-all.321875/ Discus After All

Thanks for all the valuable comments. Will keep these in my book.
 
JLeeM
  • #25
Hope that since they've laid eggs together that your fish is doing better. Would like to clarify though, columnaris is bacterial, not parasitic. Most effective treatment I've seen or read about is Furan 2 and Kanaplex together.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #26
No treatment needed.

Turning qt tank into nursery is my challenge.
 
finnipper59
  • #27
Hope that since they've laid eggs together that your fish is doing better. Would like to clarify though, columnaris is bacterial, not parasitic. Most effective treatment I've seen or read about is Furan 2 and Kanaplex together.
You are correct. Columnaris is a deadly gram negative bacteria formerly known as Bacillus Columnaris and then eventually to Flexibacter Columnaris. It's oldest common name is cotton mouth disease. Good to know what antibiotics are recommended for best treatment. Thank you.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #28
The farm owner I purchased this pair from says the newly coupled pair will eat eggs first few times before going to true parenthood.

Time will tell.
 
finnipper59
  • #29
The farm owner I purchased this pair from says the newly coupled pair will eat eggs first few times before going to true parenthood.

Time will tell.
In may happen. It happens with a lot of the South American cichlids. But since yours were quarantined away from other fish and not being stressed very much, they may be successful parents. I hope so. Good luck.
 
finnipper59
  • #30
What is your lighting situation wit them? Are they in a room that has a low wattage lamp or close by night light?
In may happen. It happens with a lot of the South American cichlids. But since yours were quarantined away from other fish and not being stressed very much, they may be successful parents. I hope so. Good luck.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #31
What is your lighting situation wit them? Are they in a room that has a low wattage lamp or close by night light?
The room is dark during night. Should I install small night light then?
 
finnipper59
  • #32
Sorry to respond late...phone died. Yes. There should be at least some sort of light on so the fish can see how to care for their eggs. Even leaving the room's overhead light on would still allow them to be in shade, but not be as bright as the aquarium light.
The room is dark during night. Should I install small night light then?
 
Fashooga
  • #33
Wow. That is great.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #34
Sorry to respond late...phone died. Yes. There should be at least some sort of light on so the fish can see how to care for their eggs. Even leaving the room's overhead light on would still allow them to be in shade, but not be as bright as the aquarium light.

Thanks. Yes, last night before it got dark, I installed night light in the tank room. So discus pair was able to look over the eggs.

This morning, Leopard (female) is very protective shielding eggs from me to take a photo. Couple of these below.

None of eggs seems to be missing. Amazing

I am installing mesh socks on filters inputs today. And will modify discharge one of filters to spread the flow to reduce current.


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finnipper59
  • #35
Thanks. Yes, last night before it got dark, I installed night light in the tank room. So discus pair was able to look over the eggs.

This morning, Leopard (female) is very protective shielding eggs from me to take a photo. Couple of these below.

None of eggs seems to be missing. Amazing

I am installing mesh socks on filters inputs today. And will modify discharge one of filters to spread the flow to reduce current.

View attachment 441927
View attachment 441928
So good so far. Wait until tomorrow to install the sleeves over the filter intakes. It gives the parents one more day of parental bonding before making any disturbance. The will be less likely to become frightened to the point of eating their eggs. I'll explain a fish's eyesight to you later. It's great that you put a nightlight in there for them.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #36
Four eggs (out of hundred at least) turned white, I suppose those won't hatch.

How many days to hatch?
 
finnipper59
  • #37
Four eggs (out of hundred at least) turned white, I suppose those won't hatch.

How many days to hatch?
The white ones are the ones that did not get fertilized. The female is most likely to eat them in order that they don't fungus and infect the fertile ones. The hatching time can vary by temperature, but 5 days would be the maximum. For the 1st 2 to 3 days, you won't have to worry about feeding them because they feed on the mother's slime coat.
 
finnipper59
  • #38
I promised I would explain a fish's eyesight to you so here we go. Fish and human beings have all the same eye parts. In humans, the iris expands and retracts to adjust the amount of light coming in by making our pupils smaller or larger as needed. A fish's pupils stay in the same open position (except for sharks) all their lives. Their eyes adjust by the cones and rods retracting into the retina as the sun rises and come back out fully as the sun sets. Because in nature of this happening slowly, the precess of the rods and cones moving out or retracting takes about an hour to happen. So when a bright aquarium light is turned on quickly, it's the same as someone shining a bright flashlight in our eyes in the dark. And even with a low night light in the room, when the tank light is switched off, the fish are nearly blind until there eyes adjust to the low light. It is recommended to wait an hour after turning on the light in the morning before you feed them. At night, it's recommend to turn on the ceiling light before turning off the tank light and wait and hour to turn the ceiling light to leave them with just the night light. Sudden extreme light changes are very stressful to fish.
The white ones are the ones that did not get fertilized. The female is most likely to eat them in order that they don't fungus and infect the fertile ones. The hatching time can vary by temperature, but 5 days would be the maximum. For the 1st 2 to 3 days, you won't have to worry about feeding them because they feed on the mother's slime coat.
 
esdwa
  • Thread Starter
  • #39
Thank you, did not know fish pupils are fixed. I have LED strip with adjustable up and dI'm ramp that might be best to keep fish from stress.

I have one other important note.

Some eggs change color from dark brown to light beige, see pic. This morning were just four like this. Now it's more.

Is it normal? Or those changing color are simply dying off or the opposite, maturing before hatching? Please, let me know. I appreciate it.


_20180527_180833-722x927.JPG
 
finnipper59
  • #40
Thank you, did not know fish pupils are fixed. I have LED strip with adjustable up and dI'm ramp that might be best to keep fish from stress.

I have one other important note.

Some eggs change color from dark brown to light beige, see pic. This morning were just four like this. Now it's more.

Is it normal? Or those changing color are simply dying off or the opposite, maturing before hatching? Please, let me know. I appreciate it.

View attachment 442078
All of the whitish eggs are dead. Some non-fertile eggs just take longer to turn white. All is not lost yet, but I do wonder why either the mother or father have not removed them yet? I didn't know you had a dimmer option on your light. That is a great way to dI'm the light slowly and keep down stress. The other thing that I want to ask is if the father has been involved with keeping a watch on the eggs at all?
 

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