Pterophyllum Scalare X Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi ?

Rshore

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Hello fishlorians !

While browsing the web for future dream fish I came across a site selling what they called an Angel Ram cichilid hybrid under the oddball section, naturally I was tad skeptical as I did not think the 2 separate genus could hybridize and after browsing the web I came across other forums discussing it but in the end everything seemed inconclusive so out of curiosity ive created this thread to here the respected opinions from fellow fishlorians

Is Pterophyllum scalare X. Mikrogeophagus ramirezI a possibility ?
 

Aquaphobia

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I am intrigued! I mean I know that the African species can sometimes hybridize so I have wondered before whether the American cichlids had become different enough to be unable to produce viable offspring.

Hmm...

Well, so far it seems that both species have the same number of chromosomes!
 

EricV

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I'm under the impression that Angel Rams are just GBRs that have been bred to accentuate a certain body shape and fin type (much like balloon Rams) rather than being an actual hybrid.
 

propernoun

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As far as I know (and I've owned one) an Angel Ram is simply a balloon-type GBR
 
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Rshore

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EricV said:
I'm under the impression that Angel Rams are just GBRs that have been bred to accentuate a certain body shape and fin type (much like balloon Rams) rather than being an actual hybrid.
That seemed to be the popular opinion from other forums but not the only concensus other seemed quite persistant that what they had was truly a hybrid of the 2.
Aquaphobia said:
I am intrigued! I mean I know that the African species can sometimes hybridize so I have wondered before whether the American cichlids had become different enough to be unable to produce viable offspring.

Hmm...

Well, so far it seems that both species have the same number of chromosomes!
Some seem to suggest that it would be possible only in a labs petrie dish while other says its a slI'm possibility but offspring would be sterile, in my opinion though I would think the hybrid would have retained more of the angel fish's features such as there danglers
Enough of my ramblings though, ill leave this to the more experienced fishlorians then myself

Edit : should probably point out the same site I came across the hybrid on is also selling a hypancistrus sp. gold spotted pleco L136, as an Ancistrus sp. So... probably not the most reputable source ( would be awesome to see a moustache adorned gold-spotted pleco though)
I'm also fairly certain the picture they have for their Green South American Darter is in fact a North American Darter
 

Aquaphobia

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Spelling might not be the web creators strong point. At the top of the link you provided is the heading "Freshwater Unsuals"
 

chromedome52

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To be precise, an Angel Ram is a Balloon Ram with Longfin genes. The initial imports were claimed to be hybrids, much as the Bloody Parrot was said to be a hybrid of Red Devil and Severum; the intent was to discourage attempts at home breeding. Genetic testing has shown Bloody Parrots to have only genes from Red Devil type species, so the deformity is not the result of hybridization. I believe the same is true for Balloon/Angel Rams, and with all the balloon bodied fish of very different species. Because these all seem to breed true, I am afraid some one has found a method to alter the genes of fish in a predictable manner. I have had fry with similar spinal deformities, and they were immediately removed and eliminated. I am disappointed that people continue to support these genetically deformed fish, which have drastically shortened and miserable lives.
 

Big Red

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breeds fish and has a broad knowledge of cichlids. What do you think?
 
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Rshore

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Aquaphobia said:
Spelling might not be the web creators strong point. At the top of the link you provided is the heading "Freshwater Unsuals"
Ahahaha I didn't even notice that, that's great suffice to say despite a fairly good selection of fish and free shipping those few mistakes are enough to turn me off of ever ordering from there
 

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I barely look at deformed fish, and wouldn't keep them. Everyone I have heard talking about angel rams has said they were balloon variants, but I have never bothered checking them out. There are plenty of wonderful, functional fascinating Cichlids whose bodies reflect amazing habitats and long evolution. Why bother with mass marketed designer fish?
It's just marketing to say they are scalare/ramirezI crosses. Who knows, maybe the seller has convinced himself it's true. Or maybe he's worried about the push to ban the sale of balloons in some lucrative markets (as cruelty breeding) and is planning ahead.
 

Aquaphobia

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Rshore said:
Ahahaha I didn't even notice that, that's great suffice to say despite a fairly good selection of fish and free shipping those few mistakes are enough to turn me off of ever ordering from there
I wouldn't let that deter you. It's probably a bare-bones setup with low overhead so they can offer better prices. That means no professionals were hired for website design
 
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Rshore

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Aquaphobia said:
I wouldn't let that deter you. It's probably a bare-bones setup with low overhead so they can offer better prices. That means no professionals were hired for website design
I guess... id just be extremely worried ordering from a site that pictures a species but labels it another species what if I were to get s 3rd species it could all just become a game of he said she said and not something id want to deal with ( I may just be paranoid though)

* I was actually never planning on ordering anything in the near future, was just sorta scouting what was out there and what ships to canada when I stumbled across that, the picture of the darter did inspire me to possibly get a native tank up and running ( but ill leave that nonesense for another thread)
 

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Their green South American darter is Etheostoma blennioides, the greenside darter. I caught some in Ohio, and they are found in southern Ontario, Canada. The last time I looked, that wasn't South America. I mean, it seems kind of cold.
 
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Rshore

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NavigatorBlack said:
Their green South American darter is Etheostoma blennioides, the greenside darter. I caught some in Ohio, and they are found in southern Ontario, Canada. The last time I looked, that wasn't South America. I mean, it seems kind of cold.
That's exactly what I was thinking the twin dorsal fins were a dead give away to me.
Still debating if my first native aqaurium will be tadpole madtoms or one of the darter species, and if I go with darters, between Fantails,Rainbows, Iowa and greensides ... I like them allso maybe 4 natives in my future ! ( I'm starting to side track ill try to stop) ( but will be making a new native thread and would love to here opinions and experiences with them )

On another note I truly appreciate everyones input on this thread I think its quite conclusive that Pterophyllum scalare x Mikrogeophagus ramirezI hybrid is not a possibility rather deformities given a unfortunatly clever marketing name
 

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