Prime & it's relationship with ammonia

All right so I've been really struggling with getting my head exactly around what Prime does with ammonia. Now, I get Amquel Plus really well, it detoxifies ammonia by turning it into ammonium (which is probably why it affects some people's pH) and is thereby compatible with salicylate reagent-based test kits. But, there's the thing with Prime. We all keep saying Prime detoxifies ammonia but, I just looked at my bottle and it actually says...

SeaChem Prime
Removes
Chlorine, Chloramine, Ammonia

Detoxifies
Nitrite & Nitrate

It actually says that it removes the ammonia from the water. And I'm wondering about semantics here but Amquel Plus had made the removal claim long long ago I believe and had to change it to detoxifies, because that's what it does for all 3 nitrogenous compounds (and would explain why using TSS right after it didn't interfere with TSS maybe?), but there's a lot of stuff out there about the use of Prime that I can't uite make sense of. Like, how to get an accurate reading (to me accurate means total ammonia, not just unbound ammonia) or WHAT it does exactly.

It's good stuff, can't argue with that. I can apply extra doses and it doesn't affect my pH, which is such a relief, and I never used Prime during the ammonia phase of my cycle, but I will have more fish tanks (maybe even today) and I will have to cycle them, so I'd like to really understand the mechanism of action.

If anyone can help me here.

Thanks guys!

 

Prime does make ammonia non-toxic for a period of 24 hours, but it will come back in toxic glory if the bacteria has not consumed it in those 24 hours. I have not read the bottle in years, but it certainly does not remove ammonia. That would not even make sense because how could a tank's cycle establish or maintain itself if the bacteria had no food source? That's a bad look by SeaChem.

...also, there's this: chlorine + ammonia = chloramine. Tap water has chloramine in it, of course. If you take the chloramine and remove chlorine, you have ammonia. It's just temporarily non-toxic ammonia. Bad wording on that bottle. SeaChem even states on their website that Prime creates ammonia, because it does.

 

...also, there's this: chlorine + ammonia = chloramine. Tap water has chloramine in it, of course. If you remove the chloramine and chlorine, you have ammonia. It's just temporarily non-toxic ammonia. Bad wording on that bottle. SeaChem even states on their website that Prime creates ammonia, because it does.

Okay, that's what I figured. I had even wondered if water conditioners that break up chloramines could actually give you ammonia, which also answers my question. Seeing the "removes ammonia" label made me think well, gee, glad I didn't use it during the ammonia phase but then on the back says it doesn't interfere with bio filtration.

So, then, is Prime also compatible with salicylate reagent test kits? Compatible meaning that you still get the total ammonia content in the water when you test? And what's this business on SeaChem's site saying you need to run the test right away or you get a bad reading?

 

I think it would be compatible, but I don't know how the reading would be impacted. And I don't know why they say to do it right away. That seems weird. I know that they make their own kit but I don't know if you have to get that in depth with it. You know how to cycle a tank, so trust what you know.

 

I think it would be compatible, but I don't know how the reading would be impacted. And I don't know why they say to do it right away. That seems weird. I know that they make their own kit but I don't know if you have to get that in depth with it. You know how to cycle a tank, so trust what you know.

Yeah I was just curious. I like to really understand what I'm putting in my tank. I spent awhile researching with Amquel Plus, because Kordon makes some seriously bold claims about the capacity of it's product (detoxifies at least 1.2 ppm ammonia, 2ppm nitrite and 13ppm nitrate) and I wanted to know how. Finding those answers was a lot easier than finding Prime's.

It's more of a curiosity than anything else

 

Not all tap water contains chloramines. Ours doesn't. You would have to contact your water treatment facility or dig around on their website for the latest PDF file from their last tests. I think most city web sites have this information readily available to the public. I do encourage you to read though.

Prime will not interfere with the bio-filtration. IE; it will not kill the nitrifying bacteria living in and on the bio-media.

Prime will remove chlorine and chloramines on contact, but how it handles ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate when used at 5x the normal dose is not easily explained even by a Seachem tech. See here. I would imagine that the precise information cannot be given out.

If you're using a nessler or silica based liquid test kit, then you have to wait 24 hours for Prime to dissipate from the water before testing for ammonia. Otherwise you will get a false reading. Apparently it is like this with most dechlorinators (reducing agents, binders, etc), so this isn't specific just to Prime.

Ammonia kits that are safe to use right after dosing the tank with a dechlorinator would be the Salifert Ammonia Liquid Test Kit and the Seachem Ammonia Liquid Test Kit. We wouldn't have this issue if more test kits were made properly to work with the more popular water conditioners!

 

If I remember correctly, the SeaChem site says that, on contact as mamjin says, Prime removes chlorine and reduces ammonia and nitrite to something that a bio filter can further reduce. I don't know, but I had assumed that to be ammonium, at least for the ammonia component, but they are definitely, maybe purposefully, not specific.
The reason that I was looking this up before finding this thread is that I had always wondered why everyone advises to not start a bacteria in a bottle cycle within 24 hours of dosing with prime; I don't see the reason for the wait if Seachem is correct in saying that whatever ammonia and nitrate is reduced to can by further reduced by a bio filter, i.e. feed the bacteria.
And my assumption that Prime turns ammonia into ammonium must be wrong, in that ammonia test kits are still accurate on slightly acidic tanks which have ammonium rather than ammonia, yet Prime still knocks test kits out of whack for 24 hours.
I propose that we nominate a spy to infiltrate the SeaChem labs and report back as to exactly what mischief they are up to. I would gladly go, but for the fact that no self respecting Border Guard would let me across the border, especially when I answered, 'Purpose of visit' with, 'Industrial Espionage and General Nosiness'. I crack under pressure, btw.
I actually am curious about this, and as well wished to show off my newly functional apostrophe key.
If only I could press my luck and think of a question--------rick

 

Haha. Your questions and reasoning for it are the same as mine. Only more funnily said. I do think the evasive answer is purposeful. If it converts to ammonium then technically you could make a semantics argument for removing ammonia and replacing with ammonium but it seems kind of shady as this is what amquel plus does and it specifically says detoxifies ammonia. I believe Kordons was legally required to change their label to read "detoxifies" instead of "removes" for this reason.

But it still doesn't explain the whacky readings because salicylate reagent kits, API liquid included, are compatible in that they read total ammonia. I never had a weird reading using API kits with Amquel Plus. So I still don't get why prime does haha. Honestly I have had fantastic results with it, been able to overdose it safely and it doesn't affect pH or oxygen levels like amquel plus did. So I love it. I just don't fully understand it when it comes to the ammonia in particular. Amquel Plus was so specific about how it detoxifies ammonia and how much of each toxin it binds and maybe that's a hook and not a total truth but it would be nice to know more.

We need someone with a stronger constitution to engage in corporate espionage than you ricmcc.

 

Okay I'm pretty sure that Prime and Amquel+ work the same way.

As far as liquid salicylate tests go, first we have to understand how ammonia works.

TAN is total ammonia nitrogen. Ammonia exists in 2 forms in aquaria, Nh3 (free ammonia) and Nh4+ (ammonium). The amount of each rests on a sliding scale based on factors like temperature and pH.

The general consensus (not necessarily fact, of course) is that Prime works by converting free ammonia to ammonium. Once the solution is oxidized (approximately 24 hours) it reverts back to free ammonia.

I've read some of the seachem FAQs as well and they are more confusing than anything. Assuming the free ammonia is bound into ammonium by these chemicals, then it would explain why liquid salicylate tests like Prime render a 'false positive'. This is because liquid salicylate tests do not distinguish between free ammonia and ammonium, but rather read TAN as a whole.

Hope this helps although it may have confused everyone even more.

For more info about how ammonia works including some generic charts see here

 

Yeah I understand the chemistry behind hit. I guess that is where I lose Seachem though because they define showing free and bound ammonia as a false positive where as amquel plus defines this same result as the test kit being compatible so it really is semantics. I have an easier time with reasoning of Amquel Plus because as far as I am concerned I always want to know total ammonia whether or not it was bound so I have a real picture of what's going on in my tank and not only of what ammonia form is dangerous to my fish.

But you did just make it click for me. Amquel Plus calls a total ammonia content compatibility between reducing agent and test kit while Prime defines it as a false positive. I think that's where I was not understanding Prime because to me that's not a false positive it's exactly the info I want from my test kit.

 

Yes, it's a positive positive, it's just that if you were to read it as free ammonia it is false. I don't know enough about the nessler reagent testing reactions so I can't really comment on that, haven't really bothered since they are not prevalent in the hobby. It can be hard getting straightforward information in the hobby, I think in part because these companies are dealing with proprietary ingredients.

 

Yes, it's a positive positive, it's just that if you were to read it as free ammonia it is false. I don't know enough about the nessler reagent testing reactions so I can't really comment on that, haven't really bothered since they are not prevalent in the hobby. It can be hard getting straightforward information in the hobby, I think in part because these companies are dealing with proprietary ingredients.

Good point jetajockey. I didn't consider the proprietary blend factor, seems wiser to be vague in that kind of situation where there is potential for variation!

Amquel Plus DOES make a lot of bold and specific statements. Not only that it CAN bind all of the nitrogenous compounds but exactly how much it can bind (in regular order 1.2ppm, 2ppm, 13ppm) whereas SeaChem is all (1 ppm ammonia and the rest, well...dunno. But we know it detoxifies some of it.). Heh. Is it weird I'm more inclined to believe SeaChem because well, why admit you don't know if you really do?

I believe you are right in that they do the same thing, though I have heard mixed opinions on whether or not Prime actually converts ammonia into ammonium (I wonder how this works with Le Chatlier's principle...?). They've obviously found different ways to do the same thing.

Amquel Plus gives specific values, Prime does not. Amquel Plus lowers O2 content temporarily, Prime does not. Amquel Plus has an anecdotal history of depleting KH and crashing pH (happened to me) in rare cases, Prime does not. Prime smells sulphuric, Amquel Plus does not. Prime doesn't have an expiration date (at least my bottle doesn't...should it?) but Amquel Plus does. There's some kind of suspended solute in Amquel Plus as well since it requires shaking and sort of...crystallizes around the mouth of the bottle while Prime is more...meh I hate chemistry...homogenous?

I'd be REALLY curious to learn the differences in these products that account for these characteristics.

You think Kordon or SeaChem will just give it up to me if I ask nicely?

 

Totally unfair; I am an internationally recognized expert on the art of napping, I'll have you know.
This is something you never hear about the likes of James Bond, the wimp, I must point out.
This does not qualify me as a sleeper agent, btw, should Homeland Security be investigating fish just now.---rick

 

Totally unfair; I am an internationally recognized expert on the art of napping, I'll have you know.
This is something you never hear about the likes of James Bond, the wimp, I must point out.
This does not qualify me as a sleeper agent, btw, should Homeland Security be investigating fish just now.---rick

HAHA. Sometimes I really wish I could "Being John Malkovich" you.