Prime in Bag During Acclimation

I read an article that advocated putting a drop of Prime in the bag when acclimating new fish. They advocated that to neutralize ammonia, nitrites and nitrates accumulated during transit. The description stated that they can develop when the bag is opened.

I had never heard this before. I had wondered about the impact of ammonia accumulating in the bag when ordering fish online. Although I have also read that fish are fasted for a few days before shipping to reduce ammonia production.

I thought the Prime idea was clever. Although I wonder if neutralizing ammonia an hour or two before it will be reduced through dilution and then eliminated when the fish hit a new tank makes a meaningful difference.

Then I wondered about the concentration. One drop is the recommended dosage for a half a gallon of water. If the bag contained 12 oz of water it would be a 5X overdose. That is okay per SeaChem. I suppose most fish bags would have about that much water.

The idea of neutralizing ammonia makes sense to me, although I am not sure it is necessary for such a short time. I do not understand where the nitrites or nitrates would come from though. It would seem there would be no cycling activity in the bag. I did not understand the comment about opening the bag.

Anybody know anything about this?

 

Okay so I'm not chemist, please bear with me lol. From my understanding, yes, there is ammonia in the bag. However, once opened and exposed to oxygen, that ammonia that wasn't very harmful before will suddenly become very very harmful to the fish. That is why prime is recommended. I don't think there would be nitrites in the bag, possibly nitrates but I think that is just from the shipping water. I think the ammonia rise has to do with ph, since ammonia at higher ph levels is more toxic. Well, when you open the bag the ph rises(which is why imo acclimating shipped fish is a little more difficult than acclimating fish that you have just bought from a local store). Now idk why this is, but I'm probably going to do a little more research on it. Btw I could be wrong though.

 

It's explained here. HTH

How Long Can Fish Survive In A Bag? | Goldfish 317266

 

Thanks for the explanation and link.

The biggest discussion was around whether it was better to acclimate shipped fish for water parameters or get them out of potentially toxic water immediately.

One camp said temp acclimate only with the bag closed. As soon as you open the bag pour the fish into a net and dump them into the tank. This camp believes that even a short time in extremely toxic water is worse than the shock of parameter change.

The other camp believes that the parameter change is the greater risk and advocates using an ammonia de-toxifier like Prime.

It seems the issue is whether ammonia toxicity or potential water parameter change shock is the greater risk.

My fish are supposed to ship today and arrive tomorrow. In the bag at most a day and a half. Coming from a seller with a good reputation therefore hopefully packed and prepared well. I asked the seller about acclimation. There advice was to do normal acclimation unless the fish are gulping for air. In that case, they suggested an abbreviated acclimation. I did not see that suggested. It would seem that a middle ground would be to do an accelerated acclimation. Shorter time in toxic water and faster dilution of ammonia.

We had another discussion about dechlorinators depleting available oxygen. It seems that it is only a risk with massive over doses and / or already oxygen depleted situations. This would seem to meet both. A drop of Prime treats a half a gallon so a drop in a bag would be a massive over dose and it would be an oxygen depleted situation. I wonder if using an ammonia detoxifier that is also a dechlorinator is the best way to detoxify ammonia in a situation like this. Is there such a thing as an ammonia detoxifier that is not also a dechlorinator?

I read a few acclimation recommendations from some online retailers. They are all variations of the standard process. None recommend ammonia detoxifier. Some recommend treating the tank with Stressguard. It would seem that if treating with an ammonia detoxifier was useful, it would have been recommended by online sellers. One seller seems to be a SeaChem advocate. Their shipments include some sample SeaChem products and they advocate Stressguard so you would think if dosing with Prime was beneficial, they would have recommended it.

mattgirl AvalancheDave John58ford

 

Reply from Imperial Tropicals to my question about acclimating shipped fish:

I am an advocate for acclimation, as I believe the amount of ammonia from one or a few fish will be negligible compared to the potential for shock if the pH is different in your water. We include a piece of fiber that absorbs ammonia during transit, so ideally there will be none, or little, to react when you open the bag.

I advise floating the bags to equalize temperature, then acclimating like you would from your local fish store. If you see fish gasping or struggling, a quicker acclimation or "plop and drop" is usually best, just to get them in clean water. You can add a drop of Prime or Ammo-Lock but I wouldn't put any more than that.

 

For a short time many years ago I worked for a small mom and pop pet store. This was just after I got into the hobby. When fish came in they were immediately unpacked. Box was opened and they were poured through a net and in put in their tanks. No acclimation at all

Up until I joined and started reading this forum I would float the bag to temp acclimate. Once done I would pour them into a net and put them in my tank. I started back up my 55 gallon tank shortly before I joined. When I stocked it to begin the cycle I did what I have always done. Most of those fish are still with me 4 1/2 years later.

A couple of years ago I decided to get some mollies. I went through the long drawn out acclimation process I kept reading about. Within a few days I had lost 3 dalmatian mollies. Over the next month or so I lost the 3 orange ones. During that month one female molly dropped some fry. The fry I managed to catch before the danios got them survived.

The most recent additions to my tank were received through the mail. Four different orders, black skirt tetras, neon tetras, and 2 BN Plecos received from two different sellers. Each order was temp acclimated and then released into the tank. All of them are alive and well.

All this to say, first temp matching and then pour and plop seems to work best for me and will be how I continue to do it anytime I get new fish. Just because it works for me doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone though.

 

Perhaps the need for acclimation depends on tank parameters. Those with extreme parameters or getting their fish from sources with extreme parameters may need to acclimate. Those with moderate parameters getting their fish from sources with moderate parameters may be able to do fine with just temp acclimation.

 

If you're worried about ammonia the best option would be to put a few chunks of clinoptilolite in the water.

It doesn't affect oxygen levels and its ability to adsorb ammonium is scientifically well established.

The downside is that it won't work in salt or brackish water (which is what you use to regenerate it).

Reply from Imperial Tropicals to my question about acclimating shipped fish:

Sounds like the polyfiber stuff. I don't know how effective it is on ammonia.

Clinoptilolite is proven though. There are tons of scientific articles on its use for ammonia control.

Okay so I'm not chemist, please bear with me lol. From my understanding, yes, there is ammonia in the bag. However, once opened and exposed to oxygen, that ammonia that wasn't very harmful before will suddenly become very very harmful to the fish. That is why prime is recommended. I don't think there would be nitrites in the bag, possibly nitrates but I think that is just from the shipping water. I think the ammonia rise has to do with ph, since ammonia at higher ph levels is more toxic. Well, when you open the bag the ph rises(which is why imo acclimating shipped fish is a little more difficult than acclimating fish that you have just bought from a local store). Now idk why this is, but I'm probably going to do a little more research on it. Btw I could be wrong though.

It isn't the oxygen that affects pH but the diffusion of CO2 from the water.

Of course, we now know that it would take hours for CO2 to diffuse out of the water.

 

This is what SeaChem says about using Prime in a bag. They also mention StressGurad as an option

##- Please type your reply above this line -##
Your request (49563) has been updated. To add additional comments, reply to this email.

Seachem Support 100215 (Seachem Laboratories) Apr 21, 13:31 ADT Hello John, Thanks for the email! Yes, it is perfectly fine to use Prime or even StressGuard in fish bags to reduce ammonia toxicity for up to 48 hours. You do want to be careful when adding the Prime because like you mentioned, it is a reducing agent and has the potential to reduce oxygen in water when overdosed. So I think adding one drop is a sufficient amount to detoxify ammonia while not depleting oxygen. StressGuard is another option that also reduces ammonia toxicity without being a strong reducing agent and less likely to overdose in a fish bag. I hope this helps! Seachem Support 100215

John Prizer Apr 21, 08:25 ADT Name: John Prizer Email address: Sorg67@Yahoo.com Message: I read an article that suggested using Prime during acclimation of shipped fish. This article claimed that ammonia accumulated in the bag during shipping is detoxified by an accumulation of CO2 which reduces PH and ammonia toxicity. When the bag is opened, the exposure to O2 spikes the toxicity of the ammonia. They indicated that this toxicity could be mitigated by a drop of Prime. This seems plausible to me. If there is 12 oz of water in the bag a drop of Prime would be about a 5X dose which is permitted based on SeaChem guidelines. However, I understand there is a oxygen depletion risk in low oxygen situations so I wonder if that would be a risk. I have fish arriving tomorrow. I use Prime as my primary dechlorinator. I am wondering if I should hit the bag with a drop.

This email is a service from Seachem Laboratories. Delivered by Zendesk | Privacy Policy
[XZD567-3K7W]

 

I don't like StressGuard due it containing glutaraldehyde. The Seachem website doesn't seem to mention its ability to detoxify ammonia (not that I would believe them anyway).

 

glutaraldehyde sounds like nasty stuff. What is its function in Stressguard?

 

glutaraldehyde sounds like nasty stuff. What is its function in Stressguard?

Probably as some kind of topical antiseptic. Seachem is in love with the stuff as it's in Excel and Paraguard as well. I'll give them a pass on Paraguard because the alternative is formaldehyde and malachite green which isn't any safer.

Plenty of safer and probably more effective alternatives though. Several antibiotics as well as safer antimicrobial agents such as methylene blue have been used as water additives when shipping fish.

 

glutaraldehyde sounds like nasty stuff. What is its function in Stressguard?

It appears that it's job in stress guard is anti-microbial. There is a good article about why you shouldn't use it as a "CO2 substitute" in the article you can read some of its actual uses in the aquarium and how it works as well: The Myth of "Liquid CO2" and the Dangers of Glutaraldehyde - This is NOT an "April Fool's" Joke! — Sunken Gardens

Other ways to use it include dosing specific amounts to cut biofilm and increase the amount of transfer plants can make in the water to use the available fertilizer etc.

As far as using it in the bag, I would think they recommend it for the exact reason AvalancheDave mentions. In addition, if you research it's chemical compound and properties, it becomes more active in more alkaline water, which can happen in the unfiltered bag, and affect toxicities, stress and vulnerabilities to infection.

I got to nerd out today, if only for a minute. Thank you.