Possible angelfish pair? Angelfish aggression?

DerpyFish

I have a couple of angelfish that seemed to be chasing off all the other angels. I thought they might be pairing up so I moved the other fish to a separate tank and did a big water change with cold water (may have been too cold). The one I suspect is the male was really colored up nicely but he has been pale the last couple days. I probably messed up. The bigger fish is usually a bully and chases everyone around the tank but I noticed this one fish he wasn't bullying who was kind of staying off in a corner and coming out every now and then to chase off another fish with Attila. These two fish are fairly peaceful with each other sometimes swimming around the tank together. As mentioned, very strange for Attila. Neither have papilla and neither seem to want to start breeding. They just kind of swim around the tank. Also, I have birds on one side of the tank and the aquarium with the other angels on the other side. Should I maybe put up some black paper to give them more security? Do I even have a pair or did I act to fast? The other angels still fight a little bit and I had to take one out because it would not not stop chasing another one. These fish are not behaving like angels. Now he's started chasing the other fish. Yep. Probably not a pair. Haven't fed today though.
 

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New2fishlovinit

Hiya! Welcome to fishlore !

the photo to me looks like a male and a female but angels can fool ya.

I’ve just started breeding angels and raised mine from juveniles then separated pairs. It was hard to tell at first and each pair does behave a little different.

couple questions

approximately how old would you guess they are ?
How many total ?

what size tank are the pair in? Any other fish still with them?

what size tank for other angels and other stock?

knowing how much space they have and what other fish they are interacting with might help in determining behaviors

I’d guess - actual guess at this point. You have at least one pair, male was chasing away others to protect his girl. The female will also sometimes participate in couple defense, but she may see if the other males prevails and take him. Females can get aggressive (mild in my case) with other females, when pairing.

do they have a vertical service to spawn on? Slate or driftwood works?

update on how there doing happy to help if I can. There is a ton of good info on my angelfish breeding journal- advice given to me by others !
GL keep On keeping on
 

DerpyFish

I did something bad yesterday. I put them all in the same small tank to see if I would get a pair. This morning I pulled out the ones that just seemed to be getting bullied. Attila seemed to have chose a new girlfriend and they were chasing the old girlfriend away. One problem is I don't have enough space for everybody. Now he is picking on the new girl. I have two bullied fish in a twenty gallon including the ex-girlfriend. I put the most bullied one in a five gallon because that's all I had. The possible couple and the other two aggressive fish are all cramped in a twenty gallon. I'm wondering if he's just bullying her because of stress or if they were ever a couple to begin with. I have a 55 gallon in storage but no stand or anything to go with it except what's on the twenty gallons. I don't have money for a stand. I'm going to have to get rid of some of them. I've become attached and don't want to especially if I don't already have a pair. My fish and I are stressed out and I don't know what to do.
The two biggest I got about six months ago, quarter size. There are seven. I have a piece of slate I can put in with them. If I separate out the possible pair then I don't have anywhere to put the bullied fish except the tank with the bullies and they get picked on again. I think I will try putting the pair in the calmer tank and see what happens. Will probably have the weaker fish get bullied though. I just want to know I have a pair before I give some away. Also, will two females fight over a male?
 

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SparkyJones

With any pair there is a level of aggression between them even if left alone to a tank by themselves.

I think you have your dominant male nailed down, not quite sure on the female yet though, but really any female will do.

Now, if you leave other fish with the pair, they will chase off the other fish relentlessly. A pair needs to be by themselves. Unless you have a 100g tank with visual blockers at the center line, or a 50g and a divider.
A tank just isn't big enough for a pair and other fish.

If they are doing damage to each other they need to be separated. Generally there will be charging and lip locking and even some butting but there shouldn't be fin nipping going on thats shredding fins. If thats happening again, they need to be split up.

Maybe you have males and females and that one male is dominant and mature but the females you have aren't quite mature enough yet.

They don't need a cold water change. Generally the water change lowers nitrates and GH and that's what's needed to induce spawning, it's not the temp, it's the dilution of the new water entering changing parameters slightly that induces the spawning, but that's not even necessary once the female is ready and knows what to do.
 

New2fishlovinit

I’d get that 55 on a stand as quick as ya can.

so I’m clear you have

pair in 20
4 in a 20
1 in a 5 gallon

or

4 including pair in a 20 gal
1 in 5 gal


you could squeeze 1 pair per 20 gallon tank tall being better imo. 29 gallon better, but I believe SparkyJones may use or have used a 20 for pairs.

multiple pairs or others need a bigger space for sure.

other fish ?

hows everyone doing ? Any hiding in corners, laying on bottom or ripped fins Etc?

seems like they may still be juveniles and just cramped for space and maybe one male maturing has changed the tank dynamic.

if you can not get the 55 up and running then I would honestly say you need to rehome some. 4-6 not sure how many you have honestly is to many for a 55 gallon set up let alone if you have pairs. Mine grew up in a 55 and needed to be separated as they matured same situation just amplified by the smaller space. Not trying to be rude or whatever, it happens, but I’d find a solution before they keep growing and end up hurt each other.

specifics help - how many tanks with how many angels/other fish etc- is still kind of my original question to help you out.

GL please feel free to update and I will help if I can.
 

DerpyFish

Attempted putting Attila and the two suspected girlfriends in the same tank. Attila didn't really do anything which is odd. I think he's okay with whichever girl. However Cookie did not like the other girl near her guy and started attacking pretty relentlessly. Attila and Cookie are alone in their own tank now. I put in a piece of slate on the back wall and a piece of paper on the side to block their view of the other fish. I could swear they can see each other through the glass. Either that or they're fighting their own reflections. No telling. Now I have Napoleon who is a small crazy looking fish chasing the other two blue angels around the tank and a somewhat aggressive gold angel mostly keeping to his own business in too small a tank and not sure what to do with them. And poor little Lily in the quarantine tank. I'm in over my head.
 

New2fishlovinit

seriously- I want to help can you please tell me
how many fish ?

- I love that you have names but that does not help me help you - you know who’s who but I don’t

how many in each tanks and tank size?

how big are fish body - the circle part only not fins use coin maybe reference ? Quarter or bigger?

If you want help in best spreading them out kind and not feel overwhelmed you need to give the specifics to the questions not the behavior we can get to that, please.
 

SparkyJones

I’d get that 55 on a stand as quick as ya can.

so I’m clear you have

pair in 20
4 in a 20
1 in a 5 gallon

or

4 including pair in a 20 gal
1 in 5 gal


you could squeeze 1 pair per 20 gallon tank tall being better imo. 29 gallon better, but I believe SparkyJones may use or have used a 20 for pairs.

multiple pairs or others need a bigger space for sure.

other fish ?

hows everyone doing ? Any hiding in corners, laying on bottom or ripped fins Etc?

seems like they may still be juveniles and just cramped for space and maybe one male maturing has changed the tank dynamic.

if you can not get the 55 up and running then I would honestly say you need to rehome some. 4-6 not sure how many you have honestly is to many for a 55 gallon set up let alone if you have pairs. Mine grew up in a 55 and needed to be separated as they matured same situation just amplified by the smaller space. Not trying to be rude or whatever, it happens, but I’d find a solution before they keep growing and end up hurt each other.

specifics help - how many tanks with how many angels/other fish etc- is still kind of my original question to help you out.

GL please feel free to update and I will help if I can.
I can keep my pair in a 10 gallon, they lip lock or she'll beat him up some but no damage and he's much larger than her and backs down from her aggression. It's really when they won't stop and doing damage to someone you have to separate or risk damage they can't recover from.

As far as my 72g and 6 angels, 4 gourami, when they paired the tank wasn't big enough for the pair and anyone else in it. The pair had 2 ft of tank and the rest of the fish in the tank was in 1 ft of floor space, and if they crossed much past that 1 foot towards their 2 feet that was theirs they would charge them back. It just doesn't work with a pair and any other fish in the same tank.

That's where the whole 5-10 gallons per f
angelfish comes into play. A 10g can work for a pair if they don't fight much, a 20g for a pair to give the pair space from each other. these are minimums.
40g breeders are nice overall for a pair and rearing a large spawn of fry up to about dime size. But you'd need more tank for growout. Where I am right now, I'm heading towards quarter size with about 40 angels in the 20g and 40 in the 72g. I'm looking next weekend for a place to take the 40 in the 20g. I just don't have the space or desire to feed all these fish to maturity they are all clear nickel body size or bigger, hearty healthy and ready to go to a petstore and have been for some time now.

If you aren't ready to spawn and breed, get a good idea who is males and who is females and separate them like that into two tanks and give it some time until you are ready and have a breeding tank for a pair and then pair a male and female of your choice and see if it works. Switch the male if it doesn't until you find two that work. A tank of males won't get aggressive. A tank of females will get territorial with each other but be of similar size and should be too bad with each other. Once they've lost the idea of no spawning and no females, and the horomones are gone from the tanks everyone will settle down. Then you can spawn them at your own pace.

If they are just maturing it may be hard to tell males from females to split them up just keep moving the likely females or males to single seed tanks until it's relatively peaceful if you keep it up it will become clear who's who and you'll get them split as they hit maturity. That or just move your dominant males as they mature, the juveniles won't be a problem until the become mature. If you remove a dominant male, another will take his place and become dominant. So you can sort like that when they mature.
 

DerpyFish

Okay. I have the two biggest fish that I think are a pair alone in a twenty gallon. They are about dollar size, maybe slightly bigger. There are four in the other twenty gallon and a guppy. They have mostly been leaving the guppy alone. These four are between half dollar and dollar size. The smallest one is the meanest. He chases everyone. It's seems pretty mild but not something I would want to go on for long. I know it is stressful for them. I have another smaller one by herself in a five gallon tank.
 

SparkyJones

Okay. I have the two biggest fish that I think are a pair alone in a twenty gallon. They are about dollar size, maybe slightly bigger. There are four in the other twenty gallon and a guppy. They have mostly been leaving the guppy alone. These four are between half dollar and dollar size. The smallest one is the meanest. He chases everyone. It's seems pretty mild but not something I would want to go on for long. I know it is stressful for them. I have another smaller one by herself in a five gallon tank.
It's necessary, some of the chasing and stand offs, it's to assert who's in charge of the groups. You look out for damage being done from it, or fish that get excluded and shut down and won't eat from it but a whole lot of the flaring and charging and chasing is just how they decide who's in charge, and that power shifts from time to time. If you remove a dominant male, another will step up and try to take the role shortly after and be just as bad as the one you removed.
The dominant male will get food first and will break up lower fights or bullying, by also bullying them, just the way they operate in groups, you shouldn't interfere unless damage is being done or it gets so bad a fish shuts down and won't eat ect.
They are semi aggressive fish, they get more aggressive with spawning. But there's going to be short challenges, for tank boss happening no matter what you do until they set the order themselves and all in line below the leader.
 

New2fishlovinit

Ok so the aggression is going to be hard to sort out in the space - but lets try.

likely pair are ok for the moment in the 20.

it may be hard to tell why the aggression is occurring in the other 20 gallon as it has 4 probably cramped fairly large angelfish in It.

smallest in 5 gallon - temp solution I understand.

options imo.

if you want to pair and keep them:
Get the 55 up and running - put all 5 (not the pair) into the 55, lots of cover and hiding spaces to start if Possible they are going to be stressed. This will give them space to relax - and still fight but retreat so you can tell who is really fighting who. This will eventually let you pick out your pairs etc. Males will defend a female and once paired they may push each other around as SparkyJones mentioned - that whole post good stuff.

once another pair is identified out of the 5 - move them to 20 gallon - if another pair is formed out of remaining 3 - rehome 1 and let the other two have the 55 as a third pair (now you need tons of other space for babies with three pair) or rehome same all Sex and build an all male/female group for 55.

if you don’t want to breed them - same thing get the 55 gallon up and running - except as pairs form remove the “defended“ female and rehome. keep all males in the 55.

keep no more than a pair in a 20 and I’d do that only as a breeding option others may have different thoughts.

multiple Angels can not thrive in 20 gallons so your plan needs to be how to create more space or unfortunately remove fish.
 

SparkyJones

Ok so the aggression is going to be hard to sort out in the space - but lets try.

likely pair are ok for the moment in the 20.

it may be hard to tell why the aggression is occurring in the other 20 gallon as it has 4 probably cramped fairly large angelfish in It.

smallest in 5 gallon - temp solution I understand.

options imo.

if you want to pair and keep them:
Get the 55 up and running - put all 5 (not the pair) into the 55, lots of cover and hiding spaces to start if Possible they are going to be stressed. This will give them space to relax - and still fight but retreat so you can tell who is really fighting who. This will eventually let you pick out your pairs etc. Males will defend a female and once paired they may push each other around as SparkyJones mentioned - that whole post good stuff.

once another pair is identified out of the 5 - move them to 20 gallon - if another pair is formed out of remaining 3 - rehome 1 and let the other two have the 55 as a third pair (now you need tons of other space for babies with three pair) or rehome same all Sex and build an all male/female group for 55.

if you don’t want to breed them - same thing get the 55 gallon up and running - except as pairs form remove the “defended“ female and rehome. keep all males in the 55.

keep no more than a pair in a 20 and I’d do that only as a breeding option others may have different thoughts.

multiple Angels can not thrive in 20 gallons so your plan needs to be how to create more space or unfortunately remove fish.
I can't disagree. If we are talking about 7 angelfish in a couple 20 gallon tanks and a 5 gallon, the 55g is an imperative to get running.
Until that happens the best you could hope to do is sort them by males and females and keep them separate in the two 20g tanks.

You don't have space to do it any other way.

Once you have the 55g up you'd still need a separate tank for the females and the majority of fish get the 55g. The minority, male or female get one of the 20g. But then you have a 20g freed up for a pair to be placed for spawning.

You don't have space to do more than one spawning pair at a time and I have to be honest, it's just too much to try to pull off for the first time or even second or 6th time.
You have to have your methods in place for fry rearing and know what to expect, that comes from experience. I would have never expected to have 300 free swimming fry, or a month later to have over 200. I would have never expected at 3 months in now, to have 80-100 juveniles, and no, I don't have the tanks to keep growing all of them nor do I want more tanks. So I have to draw my line. May down the road, maybe then I want a fish room and a larger breeding operation but a single pair will lay eggs about every 15 days and attempt to spawn. Once they get it down and good at it, a single pair will have you with 1000-2500 fry of varying sizes, by the time the first fry are reaching sellable sizeable needing tanks. Expect each spawn to be hundreds of fry unless it's not working out.

Do what you want, just warning you from experience, it's months of water changes and feedings and attention spent to grow fry, work. It ain't easy, but it is rewarding. Just need to understand your limitations and be a good caretaker for the fish you are keeping.

Time to share.
4 adult male angels, 2 adult gourami, 32 juvenile angelfish that are approaching 100 days old since they were laid in, together peacefully in a 72g tank. These are the ones I'm keeping to maturity and weeding out females hopefully to get down to 15-20 male angels in the end.
The dynamic here is the striped one and the big black marble are constant back and forth over who's in charge it changes from day to day they are equals. The two koi don't get involved at all, and everyone mostly ignores the juveniles, if they get too close, the adults charge and the juveniles are faster and move and back down and it ends right there. When there is a mature female, this won't work at all.

Roughly 55 juvenile angelfish about 100 days old. They are nickel body size or larger. These guys need to go to LFS hopefully next week so I can free up a tank for the females that will appear in the 72g.

About 2 weeks ago all of them were in the 20 gallon, it was super crowded and I was doing daily 75% water changes. In the roughly 3 months I used 3 packs of Hikari first bites, and 2x 7.6oz. Tetramin color cans of flakes and fed small feedings 5-6x a day the whole time. Yes, having someone to help me feed them twice while I work, Yes waking up to feed them in the night also, small feedings every 4-5 hours for faster growth.

I've made near weekly short videos so if you watch these then go to the channel and start from the beginning, I don't talk but you can see how it goes from week to week and month to month and growth progress. If you do less water change or feed less, the growth will be slower or you'll have development problems from high nitrates. The point where they go from looking like any fish fry to angelfish fry is critical to have low to no nitrates at all. That's the time period the most development occurs and if things are bad, high nitrates, or not enough food, that's when it can go sideways. At about 2 months deaths completely stop or they should.

I've shared as much as I can at this point, up to you to decide what to do. It's totally rewarding to do it and accomplish it, but its a lot of work and you have to be dedicated to it for a good 2 months if you want it to be successful and have then reach a sellable size.
Just going to say if you aren't ready separate them by sex, males and females, and worry about breeding when you are ready.
 

DerpyFish

I think I'd just like to have a pair in the 55 gallon and keep the other tanks if I need them. I just feel really bad giving them away. I'm scared wherever they go they won't be taken care of something will happen to them. But they won't be taken proper care of if they stay here. I have 2 blue angels and a blue Pinoy I special ordered that are pretty and I'd like to keep but I'm not as attached to them as Attila, Cookie and Lily.
 

SparkyJones

I think I'd just like to have a pair in the 55 gallon and keep the other tanks if I need them. I just feel really bad giving them away. I'm scared wherever they go they won't be taken care of something will happen to them. But they won't be taken proper care of if they stay here. I have 2 blue angels and a blue Pinoy I special ordered that are pretty and I'd like to keep but I'm not as attached to them as Attila, Cookie and Lily.
You can locally Craigslist and see who responds and actually talk to the people that do and feel them out if they will be good homes for your fish. You can give them away or whatever, but mostly to feel out if it's a good place for each fish or not. Petstores will find homes for them but who knows. And not really your problem either. But yeah if you have concerns on where they go, then you screen where they go.

Don't know how old you are but if at school, maybe feel out friends and stuff if anyone keeps fish, if older and working maybe people at work.

Most folks don't talk fish, most folks don't keep fish. But folks are out there that do and are awesome caretakers that would love some premium angelfish just finding them and you being sure about them being a good home is the only hurdle.
 

yukondog

I have a 55 gallon in storage but no stand or anything to go with it except what's on the twenty gallons. I don't have money for a stand.
In this case a few cheap cinder blocks and a few 2x4's from Lowes will work just fine.;)
 

DerpyFish

Do any of you know where I could find instructions to build a stand, maybe to hold the 20 gallons underneath? Like simple, step by step for people who don't really do woodworking stuff.
 

New2fishlovinit

Have no idea on building however with cost of lumber and the skill, knowledge required … I’d buy one.

wood and all the screws other hardware potential tool are going to add up quick. If you are in the US you can get a 55 gallon stand from eBay for less than 100. I got my last one on a sale at 88$ with free shipping.

shot from my purchase history it was in September. No room for the 20 gallon underneath but it would get ya started. Wish I could say build but it’s probably cheaper to buy unfortunately


In this case a few cheap cinder blocks and a few 2x4's from Lowes will work just fine.;)
And this is a realistic option id Still bet the lumber would be close it’s crazy expensive where I am.
 

yukondog

Lowes, cinder block's $2.07 each, 2x4x8 7.00 each. , don't get much cheaper.
 

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