PMDD dosages?

Valleriani

I'm looking to start using PMDD (Poor Man's Dosing Drops) because getting a good plant fert bottle is both pricey and doesn't contain what is really needed here (there are no all-in-ones here that I can find that are cheap.) I'm wondering if the dosage should be any different as I have RCS, amano shrimp, and nerite snails.

I know there are easy guides to mix PMDD, and that isn't the issue.. I just want to know if people have lessened any of the dosages (and by how much) for shrimp sake, or if the recommended dosages are ok.

IS PMDD okay with plant roots too? I'll probably be using both for the best effect.

Thanks!
 

Valleriani

Any help? ;)
 
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MacZ

Most people don't know that stuff anymore. I'm not a shrimpkeeper, though. But you should be able to find the max levels of N, P and K suitable for shrimp easily on the web and calculate the amounts accordingly for your tank volume.
 
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Valleriani

Most people don't know that stuff anymore. I'm not a shrimpkeeper, though. But you should be able to find the max levels of N, P and K suitable for shrimp easily on the web and calculate the amounts accordingly for your tank volume.

Ah okay, no worries. Over here it's seems like it's pretty big still because of the lack of ferts you can get here. I'll give it a check though, thanks!
 
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MacZ

Ah okay, no worries. Over here it's seems like it's pretty big still because of the lack of ferts you can get here. I'll give it a check though, thanks!

It's still in use here in Germany, too. But the younger hobbyists don't know it anymore. I don't use it as I don't like to have chemicals around in my small appartment.

Good luck anyways. :D
 
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Mudminnow

Oh man, it's been a while since I've considered PMDD. That was back when "The Optimum Aquarium" was pretty much my only resource for planted tank info. And, Takashi Amano hadn't blown our minds with "Nature Aquarium World" yet.

Anyway, regarding PMDD and shrimp, I don't know exactly. But, I've dosed some tanks pretty heavily with amano shrimp in there, and they were fine. So, with amano shrimp anyway, I doubt you'd have much problems.
 
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Valleriani

Oh man, it's been a while since I've considered PMDD. That was back when "The Optimum Aquarium" was pretty much my only resource for planted tank info. And, Takashi Amano hadn't blown our minds with "Nature Aquarium World" yet.

Anyway, regarding PMDD and shrimp, I don't know exactly. But, I've dosed some tanks pretty heavily with amano shrimp in there, and they were fine. So, with amano shrimp anyway, I doubt you'd have much problems.

Haha good to know!

Yeah it's a pain here. Mostly because theres no 'all in one' solution I can find without shipping from outside of the EU and that's taxed pretty hard. I use excel but it obviously doesn't have everything and I think my plants have a bit of nitrate deficiency because the tanks understocked with fish (and I keep it that way in case I have to leave for a couple weeks. The only thing I've noticed in Sweden is that PMDD is still pretty big because of the lack of choices. Almost all Swedish fish stores online here seem to carry it in some form.
 
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MacZ

Have you looked into Tropica (Denmark, my own choice), Sera (Germany) or EasyLife (Netherlands)? All are EU and all offer all-in-one solutions.
I also have very understocked tanks, additionally with 90% RO, so even less of everything.
 
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Valleriani

Have you looked into Tropica (Denmark, my own choice), Sera (Germany) or EasyLife (Netherlands)? All are EU and all offer all-in-one solutions.
I also have very understocked tanks, additionally with 90% RO, so even less of everything.

I didn't think EasyLife was an all-in-one and was similar to my current Flourish + Flourish Excel.

I saw Tropica (I believe it was Tropica Specialized Fertilizer?) but I was worried about my RCS because it does have 0.006% vs the 0.001 or 0.002% others have. I really don't know if that is enough to worry, maybe not. I hear Crystal shrimps don't do well though but I guess they are the weaker of the group.

Never seen Sera though. I'll look at that one too.

I also wanted to get off Flourish Excel cause I hear it's not really good for shrimps long term and fish. Apparently people say it's not good to use health wise cause it's like a slow poison to them. (gluteradehyde I think). I know some people will disagree and that's really fine, but I didn't realize this with my crystal shrimp and I think it's the cause of their deaths. The amano were okay, the RCS come and go just gotta be careful. On top of that Flourish isn't an all-in-one and you need to buy a bunch more to resolve it. Which is $$$.


I'm guessing sera flore 4 plant | 250 ml is the Sera stuff. I can't see to find any details on what's in it yet though. Though people recommend using that one with a micro-fertilizer too.

P.S. I have many different types of snails too, if that matters.
 
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MacZ

I didn't think EasyLife was an all-in-one and was similar to my current Flourish + Flourish Excel.

Take a look at EasyLife ProFito. That's their all-in-one.

I saw Tropica (I believe it was Tropica Specialized Fertilizer?) but I was worried about my RCS because it does have 0.006% vs the 0.001 or 0.002% others have. I really don't know if that is enough to worry, maybe not. I hear Crystal shrimps don't do well though but I guess they are the weaker of the group.

0.006% of what?

(gluteradehyde I think)

Yes, that's nasty stuff, and almost everybody uses it as an algaecide and not as a fertilizer, because basically all products marketed as liquid carbon still have to be proven to work. All tests I know of have had mixed to negative results on the fertilizer properties.

I'm guessing sera flore 4 plant | 250 ml is the Sera stuff. I can't see to find any details on what's in it yet though. Though people recommend using that one with a micro-fertilizer too.

Yep, just Nitrogen/Phosphate/Potassium in that one. On the bottle it says N 0.25, P 0.019 and K 0.7.

In comparison:
EasyLife Profito and Tropica Professional are both all-in-one Macro + Micro fertilizers. EasyLife says theirs is shrimp safe, Tropica doesn't say so themselves, but I couldn't find any sources that say otherwise.
 
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Valleriani

Take a look at EasyLife ProFito. That's their all-in-one.

Cool I will thanks!


0.006% of what?
Copper. Sorry, thought I wrote that, derp.


Yes, that's nasty stuff, and almost everybody uses it as an algaecide and not as a fertilizer, because basically all products marketed as liquid carbon still have to be proven to work. All tests I know of have had mixed to negative results on the fertilizer properties.

Negative results on the ferts when using the algaecide? Ooo, didn't know that.


Yep, just Nitrogen/Phosphate/Potassium in that one. On the bottle it says N 0.25, P 0.019 and K 0.7.

In comparison:
EasyLife Profito and Tropica Professional are both all-in-one Macro + Micro fertilizers. EasyLife says theirs is shrimp safe, Tropica doesn't say so themselves, but I couldn't find any sources that say otherwise.

Cool to know! I will give it a check. Thanks!

Edit: I ended up cancelling the PMDD order and I'm looking at the Tropica stuff now. I'm guessing you mean Tropica Premium and Tropica Specialized? It claims to be shrimp safe though that's good.

The Premium one looks to be the same as specialized but without the nitrates and phosphor. I'm wondering if you have insight on that. Thanks!
 
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MacZ

Edit: I ended up cancelling the PMDD order and I'm looking at the Tropica stuff now. I'm guessing you mean Tropica Premium and Tropica Specialized? It claims to be shrimp safe though that's good.

The Premium one looks to be the same as specialized but without the nitrates and phosphor. I'm wondering if you have insight on that. Thanks!

You're welcome!

Yes, Premium is just micros, specialised is additional macros: nitrate, phosphate and potassium. I use premium on my 10l cube. I run it with the wastewater of my RO unit (high nitrates and minerals and meh phosphates) and our tap is so low in iron, I even have to add that extra or the plants wouldn't grow much.
I use specialised on my blackwater tank. Stocking density is extremely low (5 fish, soon to be stocked up to 12, only fish over 4cm is an Apisto) and I use about 90% RO, so without fertilizers not only did nothing grow, plants just wilted away, even as undemanding as Anubias, frogbit and pennywort. But now: The stuff works extremely good, but I have to make clear: All my plants have access to atmospheric CO2, all are floating or at least only anchored to the wood. No substrate plants in my tank. The water is too dark for anything to grow in the lower half of the tank
Here, that's from a few minutes ago. Tank has roughly 85l, filled to about 70l, I found with two pumps from that bottle a week I find all nitrates I add used up until the next waterchange. I use the nitrates and TDS as measurable indicators, everything else I learned to read from the plant growth.
I'm far from a plant expert, though. Used to have plantless cichlid tanks for a decade, only experimenting with plants (besides pothos) for three years now.

photo_2021-06-05_21-01-34.jpg
photo_2021-06-05_21-03-15.jpg
 
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TClare

I have a similar problem with availability here. For quite a while I was using Azoo plant premium I was very happy with that and would recommend it if you can get it. It contains both macro and micronutrients. I believe it is Chinese so maybe not available in Europe. Anyway the supply of that one seems to have dried up here. I tried Seachem Flourish, but it didn’t do much good. Too expensive and confusing to get all the different seachem ones. I then found another by Biobloo, which contains potassium and micronutrients. It was a daily dosage in drops, unlike the others that were once or twice weekly. It seems to be quite good but now I can’t get that one any more! I have only got Seachem potassium at the moment.
 
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Valleriani

You're welcome!

Yes, Premium is just micros, specialised is additional macros: nitrate, phosphate and potassium. I use premium on my 10l cube. I run it with the wastewater of my RO unit (high nitrates and minerals and meh phosphates) and our tap is so low in iron, I even have to add that extra or the plants wouldn't grow much.
I use specialised on my blackwater tank. Stocking density is extremely low (5 fish, soon to be stocked up to 12, only fish over 4cm is an Apisto) and I use about 90% RO, so without fertilizers not only did nothing grow, plants just wilted away, even as undemanding as Anubias, frogbit and pennywort. But now: The stuff works extremely good, but I have to make clear: All my plants have access to atmospheric CO2, all are floating or at least only anchored to the wood. No substrate plants in my tank. The water is too dark for anything to grow in the lower half of the tank
Here, that's from a few minutes ago. Tank has roughly 85l, filled to about 70l, I found with two pumps from that bottle a week I find all nitrates I add used up until the next waterchange. I use the nitrates and TDS as measurable indicators, everything else I learned to read from the plant growth.
I'm far from a plant expert, though. Used to have plantless cichlid tanks for a decade, only experimenting with plants (besides pothos) for three years now.

photo_2021-06-05_21-01-34.jpg
photo_2021-06-05_21-03-15.jpg

Nice tank! I will probably start with premium first and see how it goes. Specialized probably 'seems' to be best with CO2 which I'm not running right now. Maybe in the future.

Thanks for the help anyways. This makes it super easier for me to do in the end instead of doing my own thing ;)
 
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MacZ

Thanks!
Who needs CO2 injection when the plants can simply grow out of the water? :D

Good luck then, and show us the results. :)
 
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Valleriani

Thanks!
Who needs CO2 injection when the plants can simply grow out of the water? :D

Good luck then, and show us the results. :)

I just got my Tropica bottle. :D

It says 10 pumps a week for 200L. Which is around what I have. Should I follow that or do you do something different? How many pumps do I do with a water change etc? I was thinking 4 Pumps at a water change and then 1 a day but maybe its better to just do it twice a week (5 pumps every 3-4 days), mostly because if you just do a little at a time it might not spark any growth, dunno :).

Also to start, should I do less? Or just go with it? My plants been using excel/flourish so they aren't totally unknown to ferts anyways.
 
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MacZ

I would approach from below the recommended amount. Start out with 50% of the recommended dosage and test whatever you want to test (NO3, PO4... your choice, one of these alone gives you an idea of how fast your plants use up how much) after and before the waterchange. As I said I use Nitrates and TDS. Pre-waterchange (after a week) NO3 is at 5-10mg/l, TDS is at 40 mg/l max., after adding ferts with a waterchange: NO3 20mg/l, TDS at 50 mg/l.

The manufacturers usually give dosing instructions under the premise CO2 injection is provided and the plant mass is medium to high for an average planted tank with plant lights and a 25% weekly waterchange. For every factor that doesn't apply you can already cut (less plants) or add (bigger waterchanges) pumps.
 
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Valleriani

I would approach from below the recommended amount. Start out with 50% of the recommended dosage and test whatever you want to test (NO3, PO4... your choice, one of these alone gives you an idea of how fast your plants use up how much) after and before the waterchange. As I said I use Nitrates and TDS. Pre-waterchange (after a week) NO3 is at 5-10mg/l, TDS is at 40 mg/l max., after adding ferts with a waterchange: NO3 20mg/l, TDS at 50 mg/l.

The manufacturers usually give dosing instructions under the premise CO2 injection is provided and the plant mass is medium to high for an average planted tank with plant lights and a 25% weekly waterchange. For every factor that doesn't apply you can already cut (less plants) or add (bigger waterchanges) pumps.

Thanks again! I'll let you know how it goes in a month or so. Either I'll be doing good or my plants will all be on fire.. We'll see :D
 
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Valleriani

I think TP fert killed my rabbit snail. The nerites are doing fine but maybe the rabbit snail is super sensitive compared to it. dang. I might need to look at something with a lower copper or none at all. Shrimps doing fine.
 
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MacZ

What a shame. But only one out of three invertebrate species affected could be unrelated.
 
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Valleriani

What a shame. But only one out of three invertebrate species affected could be unrelated.
This is true, it's tough to say. It's a good fert though, the plants are doing well.

The reason why I link it though is mostly because soon as I started using it he started hiding in his shell a lot more. Though it was common he would sleep for a day he ended up not coming out for the last couple weeks. I tried moving him out of the tank but honestly I reacted way too late moving him out (only done two days ago) and yesterday I saw him completely in his shell/dead/smelling. I know rabbits are more sensitive though compared to other snails. The issue with the Tropica one is I can't seem to find any direct confirmation that it's safe for snails and very little with shrimp (though people say it's shrimp safe).

People say 2.5ppm (0.00025%) to 5ppm (0.0005%) would kill some snails though, shrimp will be okay with these. Switching might just be a good idea 'to be on the safe side'. EasyLife Profito could be a better choice but again I can't find the contents though they do claim shrimp safe.
 
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smee82

Im a bit late but most people have replaced PMDD with Tom Barrs EI. Theres a few members here that dose EI including myself and no ones had problems with any shrimp.
 
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MacZ

Makes sense.

I just checked, Profito also contains copper. Dang.
 
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Valleriani

Oh my I think I fumbled hard.

The fert contains 0.006% (60ppm) not 0.0006%. Well that's a slightly booboo and defo far higher than my flourish. (0.0001%/0.0002%)

Which I could get Thrive here.

Edit:
EasyLife Profito probably is a better choice. Found an image finally on the back end that says it contains 0.0002% which should be fine. That whole extra 0 I missed until now because I thought flourish had 0.001%.
 
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Vishaquatics

I think I'm a bit late to the convo here, but if you are still looking for a good all-in-one fert, please send me a PM. I sell APT Complete, which is the best all-in-one fert on the market right now in my experience. I've used most commonly available all-in-ones available on the market, and APT Complete has risen to the top for me. It's also invert safe. I use it on my colony of 500+ cherry shrimp and bladder/ramshorn snails at 2x the recommended dosage with no issues.

Not too sure about the international shipping yet, but I'd be happy to work something out if that interests you.

Another option that may work better for you is using drying ferts. Dry salts are typically available around the world and at the cheapest possible price. Of course, you'd have to get familiar with mixing ferts or dosing dry and it wouldn't be as easy as a liquid fert. But if you'd like maximal control of what you're dosing and the best bang for buck, dry ferts all the way.

You'd need KNO3, KH2PO4, and CSM+B at the bare minimum. Those three alone can take care of all your nutritional needs, though you may need to supplement with more Ca and Mg based on your particular water params.
 
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