Please help. Bloom on day 55 of cycle

After 55 days of a “fish in” cycle I decided last night that I was going to switch to a “fish-less” cycle today and remove all wildlife (haven’t done yet) because the daily 50% water changes to keep parameters safe are becoming too much. I disrupted my cycle at some point by changing filters so this has been a very weird one.

When I went to sleep last night my parameters were the following:
Temperature 67°
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 4ppm
Nitrate 40ppm
Ph 7.6
40 gallon breeder, sand substrate, mix of live and artificial plants, large fake driftwood structure

My plan for today was to do a 100% water change to start my parameters from scratch (mainly because I did not want the excessively high nitrItes to cause issues) add a heater and dose 4ppm ammonia to see where my bacterial colony is at. (This will eventually be an axolotl tank so I need it to process 4ppm)

However when I just checked my parameters when I got home I have a BACTERIAL BLOOM and my parameters are the following:
Temperature 68°
Ammonia 2ppm
Nitrite 5+ppm
Nitrates 5ppm
My nitrates have nearly vanished

Due to the bloom it froze me up and I don’t know if I should continue with my original plan or not as I don’t know if this is beneficial or not for the cycle. Wildlife is going to be removed because of the unsafe levels and I’m just not sure where I should go from there.

Should I remove wildlife and do nothing?

Remove wildlife and add the heater?

Do multiple partial water changes to get parameters to a safe level and keep wildlife inside?

Remove wildlife and completely replace water, dose ammonia and continue on as a fish-less cycle?

Clean the large decor in the tank to allow the growth of new bacteria so it can balance out?

Add more decor/ bio media to allow the growth of new bacteria to balance out?

This bloom really threw me a curveball as I’m 55 days into a clearly messed up cycle and am absolutely clueless on how I should continue. If anyone experienced with cycles can give me a step by step of what they would do in this situation I would GREATLY appreciate it. I’m at the point of a mental breakdown and need help with this. Thank you in advance
Bump

 

After 55 days of a “fish in” cycle I decided last night that I was going to switch to a “fish-less” cycle today and remove all wildlife (haven’t done yet) because the daily 50% water changes to keep parameters safe are becoming too much. I disrupted my cycle at some point by changing filters so this has been a very weird one.

You say you’re 55 days in but that you changed the filters at some point. How many days has it been since you changed the filters?

Also, you ask about removing the “wildlife” from this tank. I assume you’d have to put them in another uncycled tank? If so, wouldn’t you be in the same situation but with a different tank? What exactly is in this tank?

 

You say you’re 55 days in but that you changed the filters at some point. How many days has it been since you changed the filters?

Also, you ask about removing the “wildlife” from this tank. I assume you’d have to put them in another uncycled tank? If so, wouldn’t you be in the same situation but with a different tank? What exactly is in this tank?

It has been about 3 weeks since the filter switch that I seeded with existing media but none of the decor, substrate or bio media has been touched since starting the tank.
It has been a “fish in” cycle with two juvenile axolotl with a VERY close eye on water parameters in order to keep it safe for them. Daily 50% water changes some times twice daily as of lately in order to keep it safe. They are 100% healthy showing zero signs of stress through out the whole process thus far and aren’t bothered in the slightest. They are being removed now into small tubs that I can 100% water change daily until I get the tank figured out. I mistakenly thought this was going to be a very short cycle since I originally used tons of seeded media from my already cycled fishtank not realizing the vast difference in bio-load at the time as they create much more ammonia than fish.

I guess my main question at this point now that they will not be in the tank is should I water change or not and if so how much? My main concern is the excessively high NitrItes causing issues such as a stall in an already nightmare cycle.

 

Although not critical I would do a partial water change. Just change enough to get nitrites below 5ppm. That will help to reduce the risk of a stall and will also help to clear up the bacterial bloom, although the bloom is not doing any harm. Then just continue on with a fishless cycle and don't be too eager to add more ammonia for the time being. Bacteria don't need to be 'fed' every day. What type/model of filter is it?

FYI the Dr Tim's website is a good resource for cycling:

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/blog/cycle-troubleshooting-13-things-you-need-to-consider/#:~:text=Fishless cycling takes longer than,lot lower level of ammonia.

 

My opinion. Whether it's an heterotrophic bacterial bloom or a diatom bloom either one is going to produce ammonia as the end product from them for your cycle to consume and once they consume the resource that caused the bloom it will die off and the water will clear.

If you removed the fish, do nothing at all besides monitor the situation, let the bloom reach a critical mass and consume the resource that caused it and let the your bacteria colony clean up the mess ot will resolve quicker than water changing to fight it. A water change just prolongs the bloom by reducing the population of the bloom and using less of the resource that caused it, while possibly refreshing the resource that caused it.
Dose ammonia after water clears and all ammonia and nitrites have been processed and only nitrates are left, but do a water change to reduce the nitrates first and get the pH refreshed some before proceeding ( good for the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria multiplication).

At the end of this and the water clears it should be cycled.

You got out of control from the filter change. It was a big mistake. These things happen though. Fish in cycle is best done with 1 small fish per 10 gallons of water. More than that and it causes issues that if you don't handle exactly right (like changing a filter or too much waste outside of ammonia) throws it way out of balance and it can't be easily recovered because it cascades.

Here's your options.

1.Water change and water change again, bring ammonia down to 0.25 and nitrites down to .50 or less and keep it there. The bloom(s) are going to keep happening, diatoms or heterotrophs can multiply every 15 minutes. This is going to carry on and kind of futile and usually results in death of the livestock.

Or

2. Remove the livestock to somewhere else without a bloom and water change to keep that safe, and let the tank run its course untouched to completion when the water becomes clear.

Pulling the filter and most of your bacteria caused an overload and a bloom. the bloom (could be both diatoms and heterotrophs really) they are capitalizing on the abundance in the tank. And will consume it, both reproduce quickly and both produce ammonia as their end product, they will eat themselves to death and your autotrophic nitrifying bacteria will clean up the ammonia and nitrites and leave nitrates. When the water clears again, it will have run its course and it's time to test out where it's at after a water change to reduce nitrates. Do not dose 4ppm ammonia. 1ppm is enough of a tes 2ppm after the 1ppm will be more than enough to test if the tank could process a full tank daily load.

It's not gonna stall, as long as temp is mid 70s F and pH is 7 or higher. It will catch up and clear out the backlogs. Doing nothing besides removing the livestock is the best move to make and let the tank and nature balance out and finish the cycle.

Cycling happens faster at 76F to 82F and pH 7.2-7.8 that's about optimal range for nitrifiying bacteria multiplication if that helps you get over this last hump faster.

 

I wonder if the live plants are contributing. They might be harboring some life.

If you think it's "bad" bacterial related, depending on your filtration method maybe add a uv sterilizer.

If not already using, add a couple of medium sponge filters, they are fantastic for supporting beneficial bacteria.

Btw, what kind of filtration are you using?

 

My opinion. Whether it's an heterotrophic bacterial bloom or a diatom bloom either one is going to produce ammonia as the end product from them for your cycle to consume and once they consume the resource that caused the bloom it will die off and the water will clear.

If you removed the fish, do nothing at all besides monitor the situation, let the bloom reach a critical mass and consume the resource that caused it and let the your bacteria colony clean up the mess ot will resolve quicker than water changing to fight it. A water change just prolongs the bloom by reducing the population of the bloom and using less of the resource that caused it, while possibly refreshing the resource that caused it.
Dose ammonia after water clears and all ammonia and nitrites have been processed and only nitrates are left, but do a water change to reduce the nitrates first and get the pH refreshed some before proceeding ( good for the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria multiplication).

At the end of this and the water clears it should be cycled.

You got out of control from the filter change. It was a big mistake. These things happen though. Fish in cycle is best done with 1 small fish per 10 gallons of water. More than that and it causes issues that if you don't handle exactly right (like changing a filter or too much waste outside of ammonia) throws it way out of balance and it can't be easily recovered because it cascades.

Here's your options.

1.Water change and water change again, bring ammonia down to 0.25 and nitrites down to .50 or less and keep it there. The bloom(s) are going to keep happening, diatoms or heterotrophs can multiply every 15 minutes. This is going to carry on and kind of futile and usually results in death of the livestock.

Or

2. Remove the livestock to somewhere else without a bloom and water change to keep that safe, and let the tank run its course untouched to completion when the water becomes clear.

Pulling the filter and most of your bacteria caused an overload and a bloom. the bloom (could be both diatoms and heterotrophs really) they are capitalizing on the abundance in the tank. And will consume it, both reproduce quickly and both produce ammonia as their end product, they will eat themselves to death and your autotrophic nitrifying bacteria will clean up the ammonia and nitrites and leave nitrates. When the water clears again, it will have run its course and it's time to test out where it's at after a water change to reduce nitrates. Do not dose 4ppm ammonia. 1ppm is enough of a tes 2ppm after the 1ppm will be more than enough to test if the tank could process a full tank daily load.

It's not gonna stall, as long as temp is mid 70s F and pH is 7 or higher. It will catch up and clear out the backlogs. Doing nothing besides removing the livestock is the best move to make and let the tank and nature balance out and finish the cycle.

Cycling happens faster at 76F to 82F and pH 7.2-7.8 that's about optimal range for nitrifiying bacteria multiplication if that helps you get over this last hump faster.

I have been doing daily 50% water changes to keep ammonia and nitrite low and it’s just too much at this point so I am now going the fish-less route. This tank is going to be for two axolotl so I need it to be able to process 4ppm ammonia by the end of the cycle.

My concern is the high level of Nitrites currently in the tank causing an issue. My plan as of right now is to heat water to 82° and perform one last water change to get nitrites below 5ppm and then not do another change unless nitrates get too high. Would you advise against that or would that be acceptable?

I will be getting liquid ammonia tomorrow and I imagine any left over nitrites will be able to process any remnants of ammonia by then to get me to 0ppm or at least close. At which point I will probably dose 4ppm only if ammonia is 0ppm as this is what I will need my tank to cycle when it’s completed. And just continue on with a normal fish less cycle for 4ppm ammonia.
Does any of this sound problematic?

Although not critical I would do a partial water change. Just change enough to get nitrites below 5ppm. That will help to reduce the risk of a stall and will also help to clear up the bacterial bloom, although the bloom is not doing any harm. Then just continue on with a fishless cycle and don't be too eager to add more ammonia for the time being. Bacteria don't need to be 'fed' every day. What type/model of filter is it?

FYI the Dr Tim's website is a good resource for cycling:

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/blog/cycle-troubleshooting-13-things-you-need-to-consider/#:~:text=Fishless cycling takes longer than,lot lower level of ammonia.

I ordered some Dr. Tim’s ammonia last night and it should arrive by tomorrow. My current course of action is to install a heater to 82°, do one last water change to get nitrites under 5ppm and let it process any remaining ammonia until ammonia shows 0ppm. At which point I will dose 4ppm ammonia and continue with a normal fish less cycle as I need this tank to be able to process 4ppm ammonia by the cycle completion. Does this sound right?

Although not critical I would do a partial water change. Just change enough to get nitrites below 5ppm. That will help to reduce the risk of a stall and will also help to clear up the bacterial bloom, although the bloom is not doing any harm. Then just continue on with a fishless cycle and don't be too eager to add more ammonia for the time being. Bacteria don't need to be 'fed' every day. What type/model of filter is it?

FYI the Dr Tim's website is a good resource for cycling:

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/blog/cycle-troubleshooting-13-things-you-need-to-consider/#:~:text=Fishless cycling takes longer than,lot lower level of ammonia.

And sorry it’s a Fluval Aquaclear 50 HOB in a 40 gallon breeder tank

I wonder if the live plants are contributing. They might be harboring some life.

If you think it's "bad" bacterial related, depending on your filtration method maybe add a uv sterilizer.

If not already using, add a couple of medium sponge filters, they are fantastic for supporting beneficial bacteria.

Btw, what kind of filtration are you using?

I will look into tossing some sponge filters (not connected) into the tank to give the BB extra places to grow. Probably should have started with a sponge filter from the start. Currently I have a Fluval aquaclear 50 HOB in a 40 gallon breeder.

 

Remove the livestock and do the water change. Test the water after and you will find the ammonia and nitrites still going up from the bloom.

You don't have to add ammonia until the bloom has ended, it will produce a lot all on its own.

If you get to 0 ppm in ammonia or Nitrites with an ongoing bloom I'd be surprised regardless of the water change size a zero won't last while the bloom is running.

Possible by removing the animals the cycle can handle the blooms production, but just can't handle the bloom and the animals together.. Not sure on that. What I do know is the bloom is going to use whatever caused it and produce ammonia from it. And it's not gonna end and clear until it's used up the resource that is in abundance that caused the bloom and then the bloom dies off and the cycle processes all the ammonia it produced all the way to nitrates.

I sympathize that you been cycling for 55 days, but it takes what it takes, and trying to go faster before it's ready just makes it even longer. It will get there naturally, and then it's just upsizing the colony from there for the load you need but with the bloom ongoing it's about impossible to do. The bloom has to run its course.

 

I ordered some Dr. Tim’s ammonia last night and it should arrive by tomorrow. My current course of action is to install a heater to 82°, do one last water change to get nitrites under 5ppm and let it process any remaining ammonia until ammonia shows 0ppm. At which point I will dose 4ppm ammonia and continue with a normal fish less cycle as I need this tank to be able to process 4ppm ammonia by the cycle completion. Does this sound right?

And sorry it’s a Fluval Aquaclear 50 HOB in a 40 gallon breeder tank

I will look into tossing some sponge filters (not connected) into the tank to give the BB extra places to grow. Probably should have started with a sponge filter from the start. Currently I have a Fluval aquaclear 50 HOB in a 40 gallon breeder.

Yes sounds right, but, don't add ammonia just because levels have dropped to 0 if nitrites are not also dropping. Otherwise you'll end up in the same situation with nitrites exceeding 5ppm. In fact it might be easier to manage if you only dose 1ppm or 2ppm ammonia at this stage. Towards the end of the cycle when nitrites are being processed more quickly you can bump it to 4ppm if you wish.

I usually go a size up with filtration and an AC 70 might have been a better choice for a 40 gal especially given the likely waste load. So I think the proposed sponge filters (or even an additional AC 50) are a very good idea. The sooner they are added the better.

 

Remove the livestock and do the water change. Test the water after and you will find the ammonia and nitrites still going up from the bloom.

You don't have to add ammonia until the bloom has ended, it will produce a lot all on its own.

If you get to 0 ppm in ammonia or Nitrites with an ongoing bloom I'd be surprised regardless of the water change size a zero won't last while the bloom is running.

Possible by removing the animals the cycle can handle the blooms production, but just can't handle the bloom and the animals together.. Not sure on that. What I do know is the bloom is going to use whatever caused it and produce ammonia from it. And it's not gonna end and clear until it's used up the resource that is in abundance that caused the bloom and then the bloom dies off and the cycle processes all the ammonia it produced all the way to nitrates.

I sympathize that you been cycling for 55 days, but it takes what it takes, and trying to go faster before it's ready just makes it even longer. It will get there naturally, and then it's just upsizing the colony from there for the load you need but with the bloom ongoing it's about impossible to do. The bloom has to run its course.

Thank you for all of your insight. I should have noted that it is a very mild bloom. Not really noticeable when viewing front on and really only noticeable when looking through the length of the tank side to side. Nowhere near as bad as the bloom I got when the cycle first started. I skipped a water change yesterday to see what would happen and I guess I got my answer. In the process of moving everything around a bit and although everything gets siphoned with a turkey baster daily there was definitely an accumulation of waste under some plants that went unnoticed. Livestock is out, all waste is gone and I went ahead and did a partial change to get the nitrites in check so hopefully everything gets back on track from here on out.

Yes sounds right, but, don't add ammonia just because levels have dropped to 0 if nitrites are not also dropping. Otherwise you'll end up in the same situation with nitrites exceeding 5ppm. In fact it might be easier to manage if you only dose 1ppm or 2ppm ammonia at this stage. Towards the end of the cycle when nitrites are being processed more quickly you can bump it to 4ppm if you wish.

I usually go a size up with filtration and an AC 70 might have been a better choice for a 40 gal especially given the likely waste load. So I think the proposed sponge filters (or even an additional AC 50) are a very good idea. The sooner they are added the better.

Thank you, I will wait until I see the nitrites dropping until I dose and start slow with the ammonia and work my way up to 4ppm gradually. I prefer not to mess with the filter at all at this point as that seems to be what got me in this mess in the first place and threw everything off since it was going smoothly before the switch. Once established I will probably run a sponge filter along side the existing filter for a few weeks in order to make the switch eventually. If I add another Fluval 50 at this point in time along side the existing one would it have any adverse effects?

 

My opinion. Whether it's an heterotrophic bacterial bloom or a diatom bloom either one is going to produce ammonia as the end product from them for your cycle to consume and once they consume the resource that caused the bloom it will die off and the water will clear.

If you removed the fish, do nothing at all besides monitor the situation, let the bloom reach a critical mass and consume the resource that caused it and let the your bacteria colony clean up the mess ot will resolve quicker than water changing to fight it. A water change just prolongs the bloom by reducing the population of the bloom and using less of the resource that caused it, while possibly refreshing the resource that caused it.
Dose ammonia after water clears and all ammonia and nitrites have been processed and only nitrates are left, but do a water change to reduce the nitrates first and get the pH refreshed some before proceeding ( good for the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria multiplication).

At the end of this and the water clears it should be cycled.

You got out of control from the filter change. It was a big mistake. These things happen though. Fish in cycle is best done with 1 small fish per 10 gallons of water. More than that and it causes issues that if you don't handle exactly right (like changing a filter or too much waste outside of ammonia) throws it way out of balance and it can't be easily recovered because it cascades.

Here's your options.

1.Water change and water change again, bring ammonia down to 0.25 and nitrites down to .50 or less and keep it there. The bloom(s) are going to keep happening, diatoms or heterotrophs can multiply every 15 minutes. This is going to carry on and kind of futile and usually results in death of the livestock.

Or

2. Remove the livestock to somewhere else without a bloom and water change to keep that safe, and let the tank run its course untouched to completion when the water becomes clear.

Pulling the filter and most of your bacteria caused an overload and a bloom. the bloom (could be both diatoms and heterotrophs really) they are capitalizing on the abundance in the tank. And will consume it, both reproduce quickly and both produce ammonia as their end product, they will eat themselves to death and your autotrophic nitrifying bacteria will clean up the ammonia and nitrites and leave nitrates. When the water clears again, it will have run its course and it's time to test out where it's at after a water change to reduce nitrates. Do not dose 4ppm ammonia. 1ppm is enough of a tes 2ppm after the 1ppm will be more than enough to test if the tank could process a full tank daily load.

It's not gonna stall, as long as temp is mid 70s F and pH is 7 or higher. It will catch up and clear out the backlogs. Doing nothing besides removing the livestock is the best move to make and let the tank and nature balance out and finish the cycle.

Cycling happens faster at 76F to 82F and pH 7.2-7.8 that's about optimal range for nitrifiying bacteria multiplication if that helps you get over this last hump faster.

applause applause applause

 

Thank you for all of your insight. I should have noted that it is a very mild bloom. Not really noticeable when viewing front on and really only noticeable when looking through the length of the tank side to side. Nowhere near as bad as the bloom I got when the cycle first started. I skipped a water change yesterday to see what would happen and I guess I got my answer. In the process of moving everything around a bit and although everything gets siphoned with a turkey baster daily there was definitely an accumulation of waste under some plants that went unnoticed. Livestock is out, all waste is gone and I went ahead and did a partial change to get the nitrites in check so hopefully everything gets back on track from here on out.

Thank you, I will wait until I see the nitrites dropping until I dose and start slow with the ammonia and work my way up to 4ppm gradually. I prefer not to mess with the filter at all at this point as that seems to be what got me in this mess in the first place and threw everything off since it was going smoothly before the switch. Once established I will probably run a sponge filter along side the existing filter for a few weeks in order to make the switch eventually. If I add another Fluval 50 at this point in time along side the existing one would it have any adverse effects?

Adding an additional filter should not hurt anything, in theory it should add more oxygenation and water movement and autotrophic nitrifying bacteria like a lot of O2. Taking one out would be a problem, disrupting a colony would be a problem like cleaning a filter, but just adding more filter or more flow should help with gas exchange and better o2 saturation.

 

Although not critical I would do a partial water change. Just change enough to get nitrites below 5ppm. That will help to reduce the risk of a stall and will also help to clear up the bacterial bloom, although the bloom is not doing any harm. Then just continue on with a fishless cycle and don't be too eager to add more ammonia for the time being. Bacteria don't need to be 'fed' every day. What type/model of filter is it?

FYI the Dr Tim's website is a good resource for cycling:

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/blog/cycle-troubleshooting-13-things-you-need-to-consider/#:~:text=Fishless cycling takes longer than,lot lower level of ammonia.

Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements

Addendum. Yes, dear Mods, it's another forum. But somebody there contacted Dr. Hovanec directly and posted his answers there. They somewhat differ from the official websites. Just for consideration.

 

No need for snarkiness towards the mods, you know very well links are allowed if they’re relevant & have information not covered here.

 

No need for snarkiness towards the mods, you know very well links are allowed if they’re relevant & have information not covered here.

Didn't mean to be snarky, just a precautionary disclaimer. Hope we're good.

 

There was no need for it at all, as I said you are well aware of the rules on links, if you want to discuss it feel free to Pm me.

 

Hopefully last couple questions for awhile so I don’t bother you guys.

Parameters after livestock removed and after a water change:

Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 2ppm
Nitrate 10-20ppm

Parameters after 24 hours of doing nothing except raising temp to 80°:

Ammonia .5ppm
Nitrite 1ppm
Nitrate 20-40ppm (dark orange not red)

At what point should I dose ammonia after it hits 0ppm?

Is there anything specific I should be watching for in the level of nitrItes dropping to indicate I should start dosing?

At what level of high nitrAtes should I conduct a water change to lower them?

Judging by the parameters of yesterday to today are there any red flags or does everything seem on course?

Thank you!!

 

Looks like it's going great. Since nitrites are dropping I think it will be fine to add ammonia to 2ppm when it drops to 0.

What you are now waiting for is for ammonia & nitrites to drop to 0 within 24hrs of adding ammonia. When that happens it's cycled (at 2ppm ammonia). If you want to cycle it at 4ppm you'll have to increase the dose and wait a little longer.

I wouldn't be concerned about nitrate levels. When cycled you can do a large water change to lower them before adding fish back in.

 

Looks like it's going great. Since nitrites are dropping I think it will be fine to add ammonia to 2ppm when it drops to 0.

What you are now waiting for is for ammonia & nitrites to drop to 0 within 24hrs of adding ammonia. When that happens it's cycled (at 2ppm ammonia). If you want to cycle it at 4ppm you'll have to increase the dose and wait a little longer.

I wouldn't be concerned about nitrate levels. When cycled you can do a large water change to lower them before adding fish back in.

Thank you!
Can I benefit by adding a bottle of concentrated Tetra Safe Start to the tank after I dose ammonia since I am no longer doing daily water changes and it will all actually stay in there now? Or is it pointless since I’m already showing signs of both types of bacteria? I did not add any bottled BB after the most recent water change 2 days ago.

 

Adding a bottle of TSS+ can't hurt and my help. Just make sure you haven't used a water conditioner within 24 hours of adding it.

 

Adding a bottle of TSS+ can't hurt and my help. Just make sure you haven't used a water conditioner within 24 hours of adding it.

Thank you!
I have a bottle of Dr.Tim’s One and Only coming in the mail tomorrow that I will add along with the addition off a dual head sponge filter to give the bacteria some more space to grow.