Please help - betta lethargic and pineconing

I recently found out my betta is fin biting. All this time, I didn't think that he was because I never saw him do it. Turns out, you usually don't see your betta biting. It does make sense now. It seems like he started fin biting when I moved his tank to a different shelf, in March. That's when I noticed his fins "tearing".
His fins were doing slightly better with frequent water changes, until recently. His fins seemed to be torn, but not from fin biting, he's very lethargic, and today I noticed very slight pineconing and he's definitely bloated. I just did a 50% water change, added stressguard, and moved his tank to were it originally was before I moved it. I never thought I would have to deal with this. (I will post a picture soon)

What should I do? Epson salt baths? What brand of Epson salt should I use? Should I use Kanaplex? How should I quarantine him? In tupperware? I don't think I have the equipment to set up an actual quarantine tank.
. . . I feel like if I forgot everything I thought I knew about bettas.

I recently added aquarium salt (for his fins), which might of made things worse? I'm also suspecting that the temperature of his tank drops during the night time. My heater seems to be working well, but it gets REALLY cold in my house at night. I guess stress is the main cause of this happening?
I would really appreciate any help. I really don't want to lose him and I'm not sure what I should do.

I checked all parameters and their stable and normal. I'll answer any other questions anyone has about him. Please help.

 

Update:
I'm not quite sure, but I'm suspecting he's losing some color
I'll try to get pictures later.

Is there ANYTHING else I can do to possibly do to help him until I get the medication? Would rooibos tea help at all?

Until you can get the medication, I would just keep doing lots of water changes and lots of Epsom salt baths. I would add the rooibos tea. Tannins can never hurt!

 

Until you can get the medication, I would just keep doing lots of water changes and lots of Epsom salt baths. I would add the rooibos tea. Tannins can never hurt!

I'll maybe add the rooibos tea. Not sure about the Epsom salt baths though. I gave my betta an aquarium salt bath back when I suspected he had fin rot, and it was really stressful for him and seemed to make him worse
I ordered the medication yesterday, so hopefully it will be here soon!

 

I'll maybe add the rooibos tea. Not sure about the Epsom salt baths though. I gave my betta an aquarium salt bath back when I suspected he had fin rot, and it was really stressful for him and seemed to make him worse
I ordered the medication yesterday, so hopefully it will be here soon!

You are in a hard position When my betta had dropsy, the salt baths were stressful, but they do help bettas release all the fluids that build up when they have dropsy. Maybe start out with a short bath with less salt than recommended and see how it goes? Hopefully the meds come soon! Praying he gets better!

 

You are in a hard position When my betta had dropsy, the salt baths were stressful, but they do help bettas release all the fluids that build up when they have dropsy. Maybe start out with a short bath with less salt than recommended and see how it goes? Hopefully the meds come soon! Praying he gets better!

I'll do some more research on it and see if I should do it or not. I really don't want him to get any worse/stressed out
PNWBettas I saw you had luck treating your betta who had dropsy. Not sure if my situation is similar to what your betta had, but do you happen to have any advice on Epsom baths?



Update:
I fed him 2 pellets, did a water change, and added only 3 tbsp of pretty watered down rooibos tea. I'm scared that he looks like he's going to be pineconing again
I'm constantly checking on him, so if anything changes, I'll do the Epsom salt bath. Would the Epsom salt bath still help even if there is no visible pineconing?

 

I'll do some more research on it and see if I should do it or not. I really don't want him to get any worse/stressed out
PNWBettas I saw you had luck treating your betta who had dropsy. Not sure if my situation is similar to what your betta had, but do you happen to have any advice on Epsom baths?



Update:
I fed him 2 pellets, did a water change, and added only 3 tbsp of pretty watered down rooibos tea. I'm scared that he looks like he's going to be pineconing again
I'm constantly checking on him, so if anything changes, I'll do the Epsom salt bath. Would the Epsom salt bath still help even if there is no visible pineconing?

Yes I did actually, he as far as I know is fully recovered. He was similar in that the pineconing and bloating were not super severe when I caught it and he was lethargic. Here’s what I did to treat him:

he got 2x daily epsom salt baths and I even used a low dose of epsom salt in his quarantine bucket to help regulate the bloating (I used a 5 gal bucket over a tank to reduce stress). I use stress coat and overdoes it a bit to help with the salt baths since they are a bit harsh on the slime coat. I used kanaplex as my anitibiotic and in his case I suspected parities as well so I also used general cure, but if you don’t suspect parasites don’t do that. I also used tannins. I actually used Indian almond leaf powder but almost anything works, from boiled IALs or roobios tea. I changed 100% of the water in the bucket every day or ever other day and re-doses the meds. Once the bloating went down I stoped the salt baths. Once he was active/acting and looking normal again I treated with meds for a few more days before stopping, just to be safe.

hope that helps a bit. I feel like I got really lucky with my boy, hope you get luckily too!

 

Yes I did actually, he as far as I know is fully recovered. He was similar in that the pineconing and bloating were not super severe when I caught it and he was lethargic. Here’s what I did to treat him:

he got 2x daily epsom salt baths and I even used a low dose of epsom salt in his quarantine bucket to help regulate the bloating (I used a 5 gal bucket over a tank to reduce stress). I use stress coat and overdoes it a bit to help with the salt baths since they are a bit harsh on the slime coat. I used kanaplex as my anitibiotic and in his case I suspected parities as well so I also used general cure, but if you don’t suspect parasites don’t do that. I also used tannins. I actually used Indian almond leaf powder but almost anything works, from boiled IALs or roobios tea. I changed 100% of the water in the bucket every day or ever other day and re-doses the meds. Once the bloating went down I stoped the salt baths. Once he was active/acting and looking normal again I treated with meds for a few more days before stopping, just to be safe.

hope that helps a bit. I feel like I got really lucky with my boy, hope you get luckily too!

Tysm! The pineconing my betta had wasn't too severe either, but I can't really tell if he's currently starting to pinecone again or not. Depending on his position, his scales look different and it's really hard to tell. I'm still hoping for the best though.
The only thing I'm confused about is that he's not really bloated. He seems a little bit "thicker" but not quite bloated. I'm kind of suspecting he might be constipated because I have not seen him poop all week. I'll try salt baths on Saturday. I don't think I'll be able to do them tomorrow.
Should I start with 1x a day or should I do 2x a day like you mentioned you did? Did the stress coat help you at all? I was thinking of getting it, but I've heard it doesn't always work.
Edit: He's definitely slightly pineconing



Update:
The new heater I ordered came earlier than excepted! The temperature is now 80°F and my betta's pectoral fins are no longer clamped! He is still really lethargic though. He could barely swim up to get his food

 

Tysm! The pineconing my betta had wasn't too severe either, but I can't really tell if he's currently starting to pinecone again or not. Depending on his position, his scales look different and it's really hard to tell. I'm still hoping for the best though.
The only thing I'm confused about is that he's not really bloated. He seems a little bit "thicker" but not quite bloated. I'm kind of suspecting he might be constipated because I have not seen him poop all week. I'll try salt baths on Saturday. I don't think I'll be able to do them tomorrow.
Should I start with 1x a day or should I do 2x a day like you mentioned you did? Did the stress coat help you at all? I was thinking of getting it, but I've heard it doesn't always work.
Edit: He's definitely slightly pineconing



Update:
The new heater I ordered came earlier than excepted! The temperature is now 80°F and my betta's pectoral fins are no longer clamped! He is still really lethargic though. He could barely swim up to get his food

Here let me show you the height of my fishes boating, it wasn’t too much actually.




I think I caught it really early. I could only also see the pinoconing from the top, and only around his stomach, rather then his whole body. You could fast then feed frozen brine or daphnia to help with consultation, but the salt baths should also help the bloat. I went straight into 2x daily salt baths till I noticed the bloat go down. I was pretty aggressive with treatment. I think stress coat helped but it’s hard to tell. Either way he made it though so something worked out ok.

 

Here let me show you the height of my fishes boating, it wasn’t too much actually.

View attachment 748206View attachment 748207
I think I caught it really early. I could only also see the pinoconing from the top, and only around his stomach, rather then his whole body. You could fast then feed frozen brine or daphnia to help with consultation, but the salt baths should also help the bloat. I went straight into 2x daily salt baths till I noticed the bloat go down. I was pretty aggressive with treatment. I think stress coat helped but it’s hard to tell. Either way he made it though so something worked out ok.

I tried fasting him and feeding him freeze dried daphnia, but it only helped a little.
Is there a specific place you got the daphnia from? I would order online, but the shipping is always so expensive



Here are the pictures I was going to post earlier. This was when I thought he was starting to pinecone again, yesterday:






It was hard to get clear pictures.
This is from today:

 

I hope he gets better!!!!

I have experience with dropsy, too. I know how heart-rending this can be. And he is so very beautiful!

 

I hope he gets better!!!!

I have experience with dropsy, too. I know how heart-rending this can be. And he is so very beautiful!

Thanks! Did your betta get better?
I'm currently more concerned about his eyes though. He hasn't pineconed since Thursday when his scales were slightly pineconing. I'm planning of giving him the Epsom salt bath today. I wasn't able to yesterday.

Overall, he seems a little worse today unfortunately. He only ate 1 pellet today
The good news is that he finally pooped though lol. I'm still hoping for the best!

 

I feel horrible. I was acclimating him to the salt bath, put him in, then I remembered I didn’t put in water conditioner yet
I have no idea how I forgot that. It completely slipped my mind. He seems ok though although he’s still lethargic and has clamped fins

 

I feel horrible. I was acclimating him to the salt bath, put him in, then I remembered I didn’t put in water conditioner yet
I have no idea how I forgot that. It completely slipped my mind. He seems ok though although he’s still lethargic and has clamped fins

I really do hope he is ok! The baths should help a lot with his eyes.

When my female had pop eye, the baths did wonders for her! She got better within a week.

My little guy that had dropsy did not make it; I had to put him down. But I was really new to fishkeeping at the time, and I had no idea what was happening to him until it was too late! But he was a little trooper, and really had a personality that has thus far outshown every other betta that I have owned. They really do have such a short lifespan....especially those that are sold at big box stores. I wish I had a real lfs to go to....but in small rural areas, it's either ordering on line, or driving a ways to a big box.

You take such good care of your babies, I am sure that he is going to be fine!!!!

 

I really do hope he is ok! The baths should help a lot with his eyes.

When my female had pop eye, the baths did wonders for her! She got better within a week.

My little guy that had dropsy did not make it; I had to put him down. But I was really new to fishkeeping at the time, and I had no idea what was happening to him until it was too late! But he was a little trooper, and really had a personality that has thus far outshown every other betta that I have owned. They really do have such a short lifespan....especially those that are sold at big box stores. I wish I had a real lfs to go to....but in small rural areas, it's either ordering on line, or driving a ways to a big box.

You take such good care of your babies, I am sure that he is going to be fine!!!!

That's great to hear! It looks like popeye is my main concern now. I think he was only pineconing possible because of stressguard. I'm sorry about your other boy It really bothers me how big box store don't care about genetics or proper care, but that's unfortunately how they make more money

I do have a question about acclimating to salt baths. I set up two 1 gallon containers, one with 3/4 tank water and 1/4 with the Epsom salt water, and the other one with Epsom salt water. Is this how you did the salt baths? I couldn't find any info about how long I'm supposed to acclimate him. How did you do it?


And another update: He's doing okay so far. I haven't done any Epsom salt baths besides the first one, but he seems to be doing a tiny bit better. He's eating more and is more active, but that varies day to day, so I'm not seeing many changes.

 

I did an Epsom salt bath. Everything went well this time. He seems stressed out though. I added tannins like always and I’m going to go but stress coat tomorrow.


AvalancheDave he only pineconed once, which was on the day I made this thread on. Could he have been pineconing because of the stressguard? The only visible symptoms he currently has are the white rings around his eyes and lethargy. Should I treat him with amoxicillin or should I use ciprofloxacin like you mentioned before? I have not started using ciprofloxacin yet.

 

That's great to hear! It looks like popeye is my main concern now. I think he was only pineconing possible because of stressguard. I'm sorry about your other boy It really bothers me how big box store don't care about genetics or proper care, but that's unfortunately how they make more money

I do have a question about acclimating to salt baths. I set up two 1 gallon containers, one with 3/4 tank water and 1/4 with the Epsom salt water, and the other one with Epsom salt water. Is this how you did the salt baths? I couldn't find any info about how long I'm supposed to acclimate him. How did you do it?


And another update: He's doing okay so far. I haven't done any Epsom salt baths besides the first one, but he seems to be doing a tiny bit better. He's eating more and is more active, but that varies day to day, so I'm not seeing many changes.

When I do epsom salt baths, I usually prepare my container for the bath, and make sure the temp is correct. In the recovery container, I usually put clean spring water, and when transferring him over that to recovery container, I make sure to pour some of the epsom salt bath water in it. I am not precise on my measurements, sorry to say. I leave him in the recovery container about 5 minutes, and then move him back to his tank. I make sure that I don't add all of the recovery container water back into the main tank. The one thing that I make sure of is the temperature. I think that the temp shock is the most dangerous part. I watch him closely in the bath to make sure that he doesn't stress out, and then when I am sure he is ok, I cover the top of the container with a dish towel or paper towels to make it a little dark and more relaxing. And I never put the recovery container water into the big tank. I pour most of it out, and then move the betta and what's left of the water back into the main tank.

 

When I do epsom salt baths, I usually prepare my container for the bath, and make sure the temp is correct. In the recovery container, I usually put clean spring water, and when transferring him over that to recovery container, I make sure to pour some of the epsom salt bath water in it. I am not precise on my measurements, sorry to say. I leave him in the recovery container about 5 minutes, and then move him back to his tank. I make sure that I don't add all of the recovery container water back into the main tank. The one thing that I make sure of is the temperature. I think that the temp shock is the most dangerous part. I watch him closely in the bath to make sure that he doesn't stress out, and then when I am sure he is ok, I cover the top of the container with a dish towel or paper towels to make it a little dark and more relaxing. And I never put the recovery container water into the big tank. I pour most of it out, and then move the betta and what's left of the water back into the main tank.

Thanks! I actually figured it out yesterday lol. I looked through some websites and found one that explains the acclimation part.

 

AvalancheDave he only pineconed once, which was on the day I made this thread on. Could he have been pineconing because of the stressguard? The only visible symptoms he currently has are the white rings around his eyes and lethargy. Should I treat him with amoxicillin or should I use ciprofloxacin like you mentioned before? I have not started using ciprofloxacin yet.

It could have been due to StressGuard or it could have contributed.

It doesn't look like amoxicillin can be administered by bath so I would try ciprofloxacin first.

 

It could have been due to StressGuard or it could have contributed.

It doesn't look like amoxicillin can be administered by bath so I would try ciprofloxacin first.

Is ciprofloxacin supposed to be used as a bath? I was saying I gave my betta an Epsom salt bath not that I wanted to do a bath with the medication. Sorry if my wording might of been confusing or sorry if I'm misunderstanding you lol.

 

i know we use cipro for fish pretty commonly but you gotta wonder. I was on cipro once because a tooth infection went into the bone and other antibiotics weren't working. so its pretty potent stuff even for humans. also had some unpleasant side effects

 

i know we use cipro for fish pretty commonly but you gotta wonder. I was on cipro once because a tooth infection went into the bone and other antibiotics weren't working. so its pretty potent stuff even for humans. also had some unpleasant side effects

Yeah that's why I'm a little bit hesitant to use it. I want to make sure it's actually what my betta needs to get better.

 

Is ciprofloxacin supposed to be used as a bath? I was saying I gave my betta an Epsom salt bath not that I wanted to do a bath with the medication. Sorry if my wording might of been confusing or sorry if I'm misunderstanding you lol.

You add it to the tank water each day and preferably do a water change before the daily dose.

i know we use cipro for fish pretty commonly but you gotta wonder. I was on cipro once because a tooth infection went into the bone and other antibiotics weren't working. so its pretty potent stuff even for humans. also had some unpleasant side effects

It's actually rare for it to be used in the US for pet fish by hobbyists. Its use in fish by veterinarians is common.

I'm not sure how you define "potent" but potency and dosage are inversely related and dosage and side effects are positively correlated. Therefore, a more potent antibiotic is safer.

BTW, kanamycin is way more dangerous than ciprofloxacin. So are all the ich meds by a long shot.

 

You add it to the tank water each day and preferably do a water change before the daily dose.

Ty! That makes sense! Out of curiosity, how would you dose the amoxicillin then? And how would you know ciprofloxacin is the medication to go with?

 

Ty! That makes sense! Out of curiosity, how would you dose the amoxicillin then? And how would you know ciprofloxacin is the medication to go with?

Amoxicillin would have to be put in food which isn't as easy as one might think.

Fish vets use trimethoprim and enrofloxacin as first line antibiotics. Enrofloxacin is a bit hard to source OTC but ciprofloxacin is readily available. Ciprofloxacin is partially converted to enrofloxacin in the body and the part that isn't converted works very similarly.

There's at least one study on ciprofloxacin absorption from the water that indicates it can be used in a bath.

 

Update!
He seems to be doing so much better today! I woke up to see him swimming around
He’s starting to be a lot more active and he no longer lays down on the gravel, like he did in previous pictures. I think he might of had some bouncy issues before, but it looks like that has improved for the better!
I’ve only been doing a couple Epsom salt baths and I’ll probably start to treat him with the antibiotics after Christmas. I’ll post an updated picture of him later today

 

If he's improving you can hold off on the antibiotics. Most dry medications don't actually expire and studies have found that ciprofloxacin tablets (and other drugs) stored for decades were still good.

 

If he's improving you can hold off on the antibiotics. Most dry medications don't actually expire and studies have found that ciprofloxacin tablets (and other drugs) stored for decades were still good.

The only things that really improved is that he started to become a little bit more active than before and he’s holding himself up which I’m really happy to see! If he continues to improve I’ll definitely hold off on the antibiotics.
His eyes still have the white circles though and his tail is still not growing back, but that’s not new. Do you have any suggestions to help regrow his tail? There are no signs of fin rot. I’ve tried frequent water changes, tannins, and I’m not too sure what else i could try. I was thinking about possibly using API Stress Coat.

 

Here are the pictures!
Here he is in the Epsom salt bath:



And this him today on his favorite anubias as usual





I noticed he finally has new fin growth on the very top of of his caudial fin, but that’s the only place I’m noticing it. Also, what would cause the tips of his fins to look orange? You can sort of see in the pictures that the tips of his fins are slightly orange

 

I think adding tannins and doing Epsom salt baths only helped with the symptoms of the infection. His eyes look slightly better, but the “white ring” is still there. It also looks like he has fin rot now. He’s a little less active again
I think I’ll set up a quarantine tank this week and treat him with Ciprofloxacin. AvalancheDave should I use the dose you mentioned, “1,000 mg per day per 10 gal with a large water change in between” or should I start with half of that dose? The quarantine tank I’m going to be setting up is 5 gallons.

 

I think I’ll set up a quarantine tank this week and treat him with Ciprofloxacin. AvalancheDave should I use the dose you mentioned, “1,000 mg per day per 10 gal with a large water change in between” or should I start with half of that dose? The quarantine tank I’m going to be setting up is 5 gallons.

Yeah, use the recommended dose. So for a 5 gal tank it's 500 mg per day.