Parasites (Ich) - a never ending problem

HI Everyone,

I am a new member to this forum (live in Hong Kong), a beginner to salt water fish (but I understand the nitrogen cycle) and I am desperately seeking for some advice with my tank.

I started my tank (30" x 16" x 22") back in June of 2010. Equipment and Stocks include:

o A protein skimmer ….JBL external canister filter (filled with biological filter mediums (no active carbon) ~900l/hr flow rate)….UV sterilizer light….Water flow Powerhead to control flow of water.

o Stocks include: a large butterfly fish (~4 inches), a small blue tang, 2 small clown fishes, 2 x Monodactylus (I think that’s their name – good for cycling the tank so I was advised) & a cleaner shrimp. All fishes except the Monodactylus currently have white spots on their body.

o Also inside the tank: coral sand and live-rock (4 pieces weighing in total of ~2 kgs).

o Water parameters: Temperature = 27 degrees celcius ; Salinity = 1021. Ammonia / Nitrate / Nitrite was okay the last time I checked.

o Water change: initially was once a fortnight and recently once a week (25% to 30%). Each time I would use AZOO aqua-guard and add Vitamins (AZOO vitamins and Grotech Vitaminerals M) and Bio Bacteria (AZOO, Eleven in One super bio bacteria); and sometimes SEACHEM Stability.

o I feed the fish pellets (Grotech Nutritional Plus and Ocean nutrition Formula One) ~ once or twice a day but the butterfly fish hasn't been eating.

o Lamp with 2 tubes (blue and white, 30 inches long). Stays on from 9am to 9pm.

The tank started to get parasites early this year which killed off all fishes except for the 2 Monodactylus. Spoke to the shops in Hong Kong (the renowned gold fish street in Mong Kok) and many from the shops claim it’s to do with (1) winter (which was when it all started) and my corals (which I had a couple – grass coral and leather coral). Though weather has now warmed up significantly and I still have the same problems.

Since then, the problem has been coming and going. Very frustrating!

I’ve tried using the following medicines (which I was told were safe for corals):

1. Kent Marine rx-p parasite treatment for marine and invertebrates.
2. Product called “Ich Away” – will provide name shortly.

It seemed to work for a while (2 weeks to 1 month) but then they recently came back. Maybe it’s because of the new fishes or maybe the parasites have never been eliminated. Unfortunately, I don't have a quarantine tank because space in Hong Kong is limited.

During treatment (around 2 weeks), I refrained from adding any new fish.

After treatment, I added new fishes (a butterfly then an angelfish and then the rest, week by week) into the tank.

On average, they would last 2 weeks before dying starting with the angelfishes (which upon post mortem examination, it showed signs of white patches on its body) and now all fishes (except the Monodactylus) have white spots.

PLEASE HELP! I’ll try my best to provide answers to any of your questions if the above information is not sufficient.

It's been very frustrating and these parasites seem very hard to deal with. I even thought about starting over again but not sure how to because even if I do, I still might have the same problem.

I even thought about giving it up altogether. Please help.

 

Are you familiar with the technique called a freshwater dip - you can google it to learn how. This will kill many of the parasites on the fish. Also some people will lower the salinity to about 25 to 27 ppt (sometimes lower) and that kills some parasites also.

 

Hello Wils and Welcome to Fish Lore!

Sorry to hear that your fish are dealing with ICH. I'm sure you'll receive more responses from other salt tank keepers before long.

I hope you enjoy the site.

Ken

 

There are a slew of problems with your tank.

1) Salinity is too low. It should be around 1.025

2) It doesn't sound like you have enough rock in your tank. I don't want to get into the conversions, but you should have at least a pound per gallon of water. Use that forumla to figure out the appropriate amount for yourself.

3) You say ammonia/nitrite/nitrate are OK, but what are your readings? I suspect they aren't OK.

4) Your selected the wrong fish for your tank. Just about the only appropriate fish given your tank size are the clowns. Everything else gets WAY too big for your tank.

5) Even if you selected the right fish for your tank, you introduced them WAY too close to each other. Ideally you want to add a single fish every month to allow the beneficial bacteria time to build up. My theory is that your ammonia readings are not OK, and are in fact too high.

6) If in fact you do have ICH then I wouldn't use any chemicals. I would slowly bring the water temperature up to 86 degrees, (30 degress celcius) and keep it there for bout 2 weeks. The ich parasite cannot reproduce at that elevated temperature. It is a good idea to get some more oxygen in the water by aiming a powerhead at the water surface. that is because warmer water holds less oxygen then cooler water.

7) You should also look into a quarantine tank.

 

Thanks Acquarist48, DrTI'm and cm11588ps...

Really appreciate the advice. Apologies I haven't replied as my son had to go into hospital the last few days and I had to divert my attention to him ofcourse.

Now that I'm back from the hospital, I realised the tank is in worse condition. The butterfly fish has been breathing heavily and some reddish marks on its body and eyes seem clouded also.

Should I try to fresh water dip for this butterfly fish or do you think it's on its last legs? I've read about fresh water dip and it seems very difficult to get right. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'll take some tests today to see if ammonia / nitrate and nitrite are okay and revert asap. Sorry I didn't do that last time; making information incomplete.

As for the live rocks, I would love to add more! But it seems I am getting conflicting advice. Recently I spoke to an aquarium shop about my problem and they told me off for having live rocks...claimed that with live rocks comes parasites and I'll never be able to get rid of the parasites without using copper treatment. They recommended I take out all live rocks, put copper treatment, change 90% of water and just have fish-only tank from now on.

I'm not sure which advice to take bc the parasites have been coming and going for months now.

Yes, will really set up a quarantine tank but how big does it have to be and do I need another set of everything? e.g. skimmier, filter etc? and do I have to cycle the water etc like starting up a new tank? what happens if this tank gets parasites too? My worse nightmare.

Thanks for your advice on the fish...I agree I added them too quickly too soon.

I really want to make it work this time so if you could offer me a bit more advice, I would certainly follow it to get my tank back on track.

cm11599ps - one more question on the live rock, is it okay to have both the live rock and the canister filter? Some argue that they will clash and result in poor quality water.

 

It's not a problem having live rock and a canister filter. Canister filters are not the best choice when doing a reef tank with corals because they can produce nitrate which is detrimental to coral health.

Yes, live rock can give you bad hitchikers. I used all dry rock when I started my tank just to avoid any problems. The thing is, live rock will do the majority of your filtration. One way to introduce rock into your tank without causing problems is to add dry rock. Dry rock was once live rock but it was allowed to dry so that you are guaranteed to have pest free rock. Not only is it pest free but it's a fraction of the cost! Here's where I bought all of mine.

The QT tank is a good idea. It's not something that needs to run all the time, only when you want to add new livestock. You can get by with just a piece of PVC for a hiding spot. You would just want a small powerhead and a small filter in the tank. That's it. You can keep the filter media in your main tank or main tank filter for a week or two so that it can load up on the beneficial bacteria needed to process the water in the QT.

 

HI cm11599ps

My test kit has run out so won't be able to purchase until tomorrow.

So what do you suggest is the best course of action for me?

HI cm1159ps

Nitrite = 0.2mg/l
PH = 8-8.5

Suspect ammonia is also high given Nitrite is high. Will check both ammonia and nitrate and provide readings later on.

Great if you could advise what you would do in this situation? I am quite reluctant to treat the tank with copper bc I do want shrimps and a coral (not many, just one).

I am happy to not have any live rocks or turn it into dry rocks if that really helps kill off the parasites. Though I am not exactly sure how to do that. Boil the rock?

As for the coral sand, should I wash it in freshwater too? Boil it as well?

What about the filter, would the parasites be living there too but I really don't want to harm the bacteria in the filter. What should I do here?

If I do all this except treat the tank with copper, would that help me get rid of the parasites?

I am holding off changing water until I've done all the test and have decided what to do.

Please help.

 

Wow this is a big problem!!! The size of tank and as opposed to the rock Etc. is not a good thing what so ever.... Way over stocked and not enough bacterial balance to sustain the life you have. Also would like to mention the canister filter good for fresh water keeping but a hazard to salt water keeping. you have a lot of things to consider on in the long haul. You may do okay for now but can turn around on you very rapidly. If you are interested please write back so that I can help in the decisions you may choose.

 

HI Stang man

Thanks you for your comments. I am very interested in the long haul and open to all suggestions.

Most of my fish have died off now and just have a few left (5 small fishes) and shrimp.

I'm all ears, grateful for your help.

 

Can you tell me all details of the tank you have and equipment. Also will need to know what water are you using and how you prepar the water for synthetic salt mixes. Is this going to be a fish only tank? The more detail the better to help you in correcting the problems that you are facing. Also need to know how long since you bought live rock and also was it fully cycled or not.

 

Just thought I can give you some ideas on what to do with marine ich and what has worked for me. Just my 2 cents. First increase the airation in you're tank this will reduce some stress on you're fish and help them breathe better. Turn up the temp a little bit around 80-82 this will speed up the parasite. Marine ich works in cycles when you see the white spots off the fish they hatch and reproduce. At this stage due a 35% water change and keep doing water changes every week but not 35% No carbon, no skimming. I used no-ich by fish-vet. It took about a month and a half to get rid of it. And keep that UV on, it does work. Be patient and you will get it under control. Next time look the fish over very well see if it will eat food and not swimming radically and doesn't hide in a corner. If you like what you see have the store hold the fish for you for a week or two. Aclimate new fish slowly using the drip method for 45 min. Stang man will help you out. He's helped me along the way to.

 

HI Stang Man

Certainly, here are the details of my tank...

1. Size of tank: 30" x 16" x 22"

2. Protein skimmer: Instant Ocean Skimm 400 exactly like this one:

I often clean the cup on the top of the skimmer which holds the waste but the actual reaction pipe and tubes / hose have not been cleaned. I intend to do this soon. The water that flows out of this skimmer, I would put through a filter (with cotton only) that sits on top of the tank; so that any other waste that comes out of tank is further captured before the water goes back into the tank. I find this helps reduce the bubbles in the tank too.

3. JBL external canister filter (filled with biological filter mediums (no active carbon) ~900l/hr flow rate). The biological mediums are like black rocks (suppose to be good quality) and have been in the filter since June 2010; have never changed them since. When I change water, I would open the filter to give these rocks a rinse using water siphoned from the tank. I would change the cotton and that's it. The tubes connecting to the filter have not been cleaned for some time. Should I be?

4. UV Sterilizer light (9W): from Coralife. Turbo Twist 3x. Water from tank goes into canister filter - then from canister filter to UV sterilizer and from UV back out to the tank. But I haven't been using this much because the need to use medication.

5. Water flow powerhead to control flow of water.

6. Eheim air pump 200 with 2 outlets.

7. Hallide Lamp (blue and white light)
8. Heater

Stocks:
1. 1 small clown fishes
2. 2 x Monodactylus
3. Cleaner shrimp.

Rocks and Sand:
1. Coral sand
2. Live-rock (4 pieces): actually these live rocks should be more than 2kgs. I started moving them around today and suspect they're more like 4kg in total. I bought them at ~6 months ago. Was it fully cycled? I believe so bc the guy at the store told me I didn't have to do anything with them, just put in the tank. They keep heaps of them in a large tank and just pulled 4 of them out to sell me. When I change the water, I would give these rocks are rinse using the drained out tank water. I would also do a sniff test to see if they smell bad and each time it smells like sea water so I suspect it's okay. There are some organisms (like a plant) that grow on it and they seem fine too. It's just that there are some white mould from time to time that the fishes pick on. There was a crab that lived in it but recently it dies and was rinsed out when I did the water change.

Water parameters: I will revert on this later today.

Water change:

1. Use AZOO aqua-guard
2. Add Vitamins (Grotech Vitaminerals M)
3. Bio Bacteria (AZOO, Eleven in One super bio bacteria)
4. Salt: Japanese brand called "Sea Treasure". When I add the water back into the tank, I normally check the salinity first before adding salt because sometimes the salinity is okay and no salt needed. When salinity is low after adding the water, I would take some tank water out and mix it with the Sea Treasure salt in a bucket before pouring back in. I would add 0.5 to 1 cup of salt at a time and re-check the salinity before adding salt again. I would stop this once it comes back up to the level required.

Finally, do I want this to be a fish only tank? Initially, I would like it to be fish only but with some sea scaping (i.e. happy to use live or dry rocks). I am not that ambitious but ideally I would like to have one or 2 corals if possible but maybe now, I aI'm to have this in the long run instead. I wish to have fish only for 1 year first.

Hope this is sufficient? Please let me know if further information is required. I understand it's difficult to give advice without having seen the actual tank but any advice would be much appreciated.

Once again, thank you heaps for helping out. The problem in HK is that I can't write chinese so can't jump onto hk forums (not that I know any) and I find guys at the shop only tell you things that would help them sell you more products. I'm happy to pay for those products but I'm skeptical on the advice because a month later, if I have any problems, they won't give any further advice.

 

Rocky - thanks for your advice. I intend to follow your advice. It sounds logical and consistent with some of the other advice I've received. Some say that the temperature has to go above 30 degrees for it to kill. I would like to do this once I have decided on a plan of attack on how to fix my tank for the long haul as Stang Man has suggested.

 

# 2 No need to fiter the water with floss or any other type material that comes from the outlet of skimmer.
#3 Canister filter are those black lava rock??
#4 Don't believe in UV steralization.
#5What type power head and what is flow ratio?
#6 Get rid of the air and get another power head On total circulation of tank and you do have a 40 gallon you need ten to twenty ratio on turn over per hour, I would strongly suggest the 20 times ratio for all salt water regardless if it is reef or fish only.
#7 Good what type wattage and what is the kelvin degrees?
#8 heater only use it when temps fall below 70 degrees in the tank and should not go over 82.
Stock is okay
Sand what type sand is this crushed coral or sand? It really doesn't matter just as long as it is under 2 inches deep.
Live rock for this method 1.5 pounds to 1 gallon of water is what I strongly suggest. Sorry we use pounds not KG!! Lol You totally got me there.. Hahahaha
Bacterial strains from a bottle ? Humm total joke!!! Don't wasye the money!!!
Salt this is where it gets critical, Depending on type of salt and the elements that are at high standards, I only use top grade synthetic salts I do not believe in the low grade stuff that has no benefit at all for the money it is cheaply made and is worth less..... All levels of elements are way low and cause problems so not sure what you are using but you may want to cosider changing salt, I use Salinity ( Aqua vitro) Made by sea chem this salt is the best that I have ever found very expensive but well worth the money.
Be weiry about those LFS guys cause they can be either not knowledgable or may be misleading. Fill in the blanks for an answer before I can give you a defenaint answer

 

#3 canister filter are those black lava rock?? PLEASE SEE RESPONSE BELOW

#4 [Don't believe in UV steralization.] To be honest, I don't think it's done much for me yet but I've been wondering if it's to do with the the low wattage or canister flow speed which is difficult for me to adjust.

[#5What type power head and what is flow ratio?] PLEASE SEE RESPONSE BELOW

[#6 Get rid of the air and get another power head On total circulation of tank and you do have a 40 gallon you need ten to twenty ratio on turn over per hour, I would strongly suggest the 20 times ratio for all salt water regardless if it is reef or fish only.]

So if my maths is correct 400-800 gallons / hour (or in 1500 to 3000 litres/hr).

[#7 Good what type wattage and what is the kelvin degrees? ] PLEASE SEE RESPONSE BELOW

#8 [heater only use it when temps fall below 70 degrees in the tank and should not go over 82.] Ok, understood.

Yep, sand is crushed coral and sand (so a mix) and is definitely less than 2 inches deep. Do I need to take this out for a good cleansing do you think?

[Live rock for this method 1.5 pounds to 1 gallon of water is what I strongly suggest. Sorry we use pounds not KG!! Lol You totally got me there.. Hahahaha] No worries, I can do this. 1.5 pounds should be 0.68kg (~i.e. 2.2x) so for 40 gallons, I should be having 27 kilos. Should I keep the existing ones? What happens if they have parasites?

[Bacterial strains from a bottle ? Humm total joke!!! Don't wasye the money!!!] Ok, thanks.

[Salt this is where it gets critical, Depending on type of salt and the elements that are at high standards, I only use top grade synthetic salts I do not believe in the low grade stuff that has no benefit at all for the money it is cheaply made and is worth less..... All levels of elements are way low and cause problems so not sure what you are using but you may want to cosider changing salt, I use salinity ( Aqua vitro) Made by sea chem this salt is the best that I have ever found very expensive but well worth the money.] Great, thanks for letting me know! I'll go and get some today.

Thanks Stang Man! Will give you another update later today. I've not done much to the tank yet so just waiting until I have this plan sorted out. Thanks so much!

 

Filter materials: They are called active filter from AZOO. I've added the link to it here. https://www.alibaba.com/?from_http=1product-detail/AZOO_Aquarium_ACTIVE_FILTER/show_110129550.html

At the back of the packet, it states you need to change it after 1 year so I'm thinking of doing that. The shops are recommending Eheim Subtrat Pro like this one:

What do you think? But does that mean I have the cycle the tank again?

 

[#7 Good what type wattage and what is the kelvin degrees? ] 14W x 2 @ 6700 kelvin degrees. Though I have to confess, they are fluorescent lights. Aqua Cyber light T5.
Here is the link: https://www.anp-aquarium.com/Aquarium Lamp/Aquarium_Lamp_Light_Casing_AL-132.html

 

#5What type power head and what is flow ratio?

Tunze power head with a ratio of 1500 l/hr to 4500 l/hr. I have actually been setting it at the 2000 l/hr but can easily adjust that to 3000 l/hr if required. I only have one of these. Should I buy another one and put on the other end of the tank?

 

Filter materials: They are called active filter from AZOO. I've added the link to it here. https://www.alibaba.com/?from_http=1product-detail/AZOO_Aquarium_ACTIVE_FILTER/show_110129550.html

At the back of the packet, it states you need to change it after 1 year so I'm thinking of doing that. The shops are recommending Eheim Subtrat Pro like this one:

What do you think? But does that mean I have the cycle the tank again?

Ditch that and get a sump!!!!

 

[#7 Good what type wattage and what is the kelvin degrees? ] 14W x 2 @ 6700 kelvin degrees. Though I have to confess, they are fluorescent lights. Aqua Cyber light T5.
Here is the link: https://www.anp-aquarium.com/Aquarium Lamp/Aquarium_Lamp_Light_Casing_AL-132.html

Fine for fish only but if you want corals an upgrade is needed.

 

#5What type power head and what is flow ratio?

Tunze power head with a ratio of 1500 l/hr to 4500 l/hr. I have actually been setting it at the 2000 l/hr but can easily adjust that to 3000 l/hr if required. I only have one of these. Should I buy another one and put on the other end of the tank?

Tunze is the best!!! I suggest getting another one for the opposite side of tank and ditch the air. Also do you have a skimmer?? How about the water you mix with the salt?? Is it R/O water or D/I?????????

 

Tunze is the best!!! I suggest getting another one for the opposite side of tank and ditch the air. Also do you have a skimmer?? How about the water you mix with the salt?? Is it R/O water or D/I?????????

Ok, will get another Tunze power head. Should I make both the same speed and pointing to the middle of the tank?

I have a skimmer: Instant Ocean Skimm 400.

I just get water from the tap and add Aquaguard.

Sump - how do I make a sump or can I purchase these?

What should be my next steps once I get the right equipment?

 

Power heads pointing from back of tank, at about 1/4 of tank from both ends pointing straight toward front face of tank. Not a fan of Instant ocean but will do for now. Stop using tap water immediately and use a R/O or D/I or R/O D/I source, tap is a total no no!!!. Check out my profile I have made several sumps but are acrylic, These sumps also can be from a glass tank and you can silicoln some acrylic in to make a proper sump and I will help you do so, Or you can buy one online your choice. As oppossed to next steps get the proper equipment and water source first then we can go from there.

 

HI Stang Man, I might not be able to get a sump bc I don't have much room unfortunately. Even the filter was compromised bc of this limitation. Sorry buddy, it's HK so space is limited.

I would really like to start working on this on Sat so great if you could advise if what I should do next. Or if you have any other questions, pls let me know. Thanks heaps.

 

Do you have room on the outside of tank , On the side of it ? Also may be an eye sore but can you live with it?

 

I looked again last night and there might be room on the side of it (around 15 inch space) but if it's an eye sore, chances are that my wife would not allow that. It took me a long time to convince her to put a QT there. That's the other thing, if I put a sump there, I'll have no more room for QT. Problem living in HK.

 

I looked again last night and there might be room on the side of it (around 15 inch space) but if it's an eye sore, chances are that my wife would not allow that. It took me a long time to convince her to put a QT there. That's the other thing, if I put a sump there, I'll have no more room for QT. Problem living in HK.

You could also do a hang on the back type?? If you don't have the room then this would be a good option for you.

 

I'm surprised the UV sterilizer wasn't enough to take care of it. Does it need a new bulb(replace every 6mo-year I think)? If you have a QT tank you can put just the fish in there (no liverock or inverts) and treat them with copper for 6 weeks, monitoring the levels closely with a copper test. After your main tank has been "fish-free" for 6 weeks, all of the ich should have died (ich will starve to death w/o fish to feed on).

If QT is not an option for you, you can try some cleaner shrimp or cleaner wrasse or a neon goby. All will pick parasites off of fish. Frequent vacuuming of the substrate should get rid of some of the ich eggs. You can also lower your salinity a bit (I keep mine at 1.021) which should help some, along with raising the temp to 86F which will keep the ich from reproducing. Add an airstone whenever you raise your temp b/c oxygen level goes down when temp goes up.

Here's a link to a site with lots of info on marine ich

Finally, good luck to you. I've been battling ich in my tank for a couple of months now and just installed a Coralife 18w turbo twist UV sterilizer today. Bought a cleaner wrasse last week and he's been busy keeping my tangs alive while I was waiting for the UV sterilizer to come in. I've also been soaking their food in garlic and using VitaChem to boost their immune systems. So far haven't lost any fish with those methods but I still see a few white spots on my blue hippo tang. Crossing my fingers and hoping for a miracle!

 

Thanks Angelfish! I think I will just start all over again. But your advice is very helpful. I will try to buy some wrasse and more shrimps to help with any future outbreaks of ich. I have actually bought a quarantine tank now and will set it up as soon as the main tank is ready. Still thinking how to start over with Stang Man's help.

Stang Man - I still don't think I can put a sump at the back of the tank. Any other alternatives? How should I start over; I have pretty much everything except the sump.

 

Starting over is pretty drastic, but I'm not sure how much livestock you have in the tank. If you have a quarantine tank you really could just treat all the fish with copper or paraguard in there and leave the main tank fishless for 6 weeks and after that you shouldn't have any more problems. Future additions to your tank can either be quarantined or you can use a combo of some sort of cleaner (shrimp, wrasse, or neon goby) and either a freshwater dip or an hour long soak in paraguard before introducing them to your tank. Last time I went to the LFS I took paraguard with me and had them put a drop in each bag with the fish so they'd have a good long soak on the way home. A good strong immune system will go a long way towards preventing ich. Make sure anything in your tank environment isn't causing your fish stress. Frequent temperature changes of 2 degrees or more, possible incompatability of species, too crowded, not enough caves for hiding, improper water parameters (anything other than 0 for ammonia & nitrite, and anything over 40ppm for nitrate), etc.
That said, certainly listen to Stang Man's advice as he has much more experience than I do.

 

So you have had an out break of marine ich, How many and what type fish were infected? Also as I said previously are you using R/O or D/I water yet???This has a lot to do with the ich that has started, Not to mention many other factors, Over stocking to fast, a fish that has been affected before and had some eggs attaatched. Uv sterilizers are fine for FOWLR but here is the catch and this goes for fresh water applications as well , A UV sterilizer will kill the bad bacterias that grow in a tank with a huge live stock of fish and does not help what so ever in the control of ich, This is a waste of money in my eyes. Take for instance the only UV that I use is for my 3,000 gallon pond and when I use it is mainly in the spring time to control the hair algae that starts to develope, It helps to control some of the bad bacteria that certain algaes love to thrive on. Being that said the use in a saltwater tank kelps to kill the bad bacterias that can develope in these tanks and most of the time is used to control fungus, Spores of strains and also for the control of certain types of bacterial issues. As for marine ich this is a type of parisite that only developes in all enclosed systems does not happen in the wild in most cases. This is a very hard thing to rid of and most cases can actually turn a tank fully upside down. The best thing in any tank is to not get o that point, I know your thinking and how do I acheive that, Well the best way is to only purchuse fish that you have visited for at least a week or so and watch the fish around them as well. Keep in mind that these fish have been either thru a bad haul or have been in some kind of shock that has made them become ill, And stress is the number one cause for ich. So if you have problems with fish in a small inviroment and someone is a mean dude that loves to peck then that is the fist sign of separation. Okay on and on I go I can talk all nite about this but I will keep it short, First thing get a QT tank and do not use anything other than a bare tank and a few live rocks with no sand etc. Raise temp to 86 degrees at a salinity of 1.018 change water every day from dt to qt at about 30-40 percent and keep adding freshly made water for the dt tank. I do not use any type of copper based products don't like them at all cause the will leach out of the fish into dt and so forth not a good thing to do it's very bad chemical and usally will kill the fish faster than the ich will, If the fish will eat then add some garlic to there food and only use the stuff that you get from LFS and don't try to make your own!! The key is to work fast and make the fish eat alot!! This will help in the immune system to help over power the anxiety that the fish has acuured in the transfer from L:FS to the DT. Whitin 2-3 days after you should see signs of the ich not interested in more out break but will start to decline du to the rise in temp and lower salinity. Keep in mind that when you start the lower salinity do this step very very slow it will take about 8-12 hours for the fish to reacclimate to this salinity factor if you do it to fast you will lose the fish. I am so sorry that you are experiancing this illness and I hope for the best recovery. You need to act fast or as they say in nature only the strongest will survive. This holds very true. I have to stop here because I do not want to confuss anyone but will touch base tomorrow on this subject. Do the things in order and things will change , But also be prepared to loose fish too because they are very week and most do not survive this is a very sad situation my friend but can be reversed!!! Good luck!!!