Paraiba And "local" Koi

Mcasella
  • #1
I went to my preferred pet store (and surprises were had), I picked up the two pictured paraiba (17$ each, expensive if I didn't have a bunch of store credit) and four locally bred koi (4$ each) as well as a small bundle of beat up anubias (unknown species so far) for free (person bagging it looked at it and was just like take it because we couldn't find a matching anubias species in their tanks/prices). The local koi didn't look like much in the tank (10000k blue and white light, terrible for them, the light I took the picture of them under is also very bright blue/white), but I picked out four that I liked the look of the best as well as ones that I could see the orange on them (these local ones put their ordered ones to shame, the ordered ones had maybe 15% orange coverage on the head).
And I still have 30$ in store credit the next time I want to go for a 2 hour drive one way.
@bizaliz did you possibly turn in your large paraiba? (I talked with one lady there that apparently turned in a ten inch angel for store credit because her tiger barbs liked sushI fins, I wish I had got to see that one).

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goldface
  • #2
I really like the koi. They look different: pointy narrow faces, and they’re very traingular and flat bodied. But I’m not an angelfish person, so I don’t really know what I’m supposed to like or not like.
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #3
I really like the koi. They look different: pointy narrow faces, and they’re very traingular and flat bodied. But I’m not an angelfish person, so I don’t really know what I’m supposed to like or not like.
They should grow out of most of the pointiness. They have nice paired fins (without them being deformed or missing), they hold their fins very straight and do not display issues with bent fins or other malformities that would immediately disqualify them. The only issue is their long shape, which hopefully will fill out as they age. They are very nice for some of the fish I have seen, they are better than most of the angels this pet store gets from suppliers, not just for color coverage either. I expect the koi to have about 70-80% coverage once they get bigger, hopefully it comes out as well as the other juvie koi I have (which came to me with under 20% visible coverage and now have 60%+ coverage).
 
bizaliz3
  • #4
I just saw this now, you missed the number 3 in my name, so I didn't get the mention! lol

That Paraiba is GORGEOUS. And it looks pretty huge. Congrats!! I don't think $17 is a lot of an adult Paraiba! I would pay it in a heartbeat since I seem to have so much trouble finding them!! (unless its another boy haha)

I don't know what you mean about turning in my large Paraiba. Are you confusing them with the giant Koi that I need to get rid of? Cuz my paraibas are going NOwhere! lol I am sticking to the auction for getting rid of adult angels though. The LFS doesn't give much at all, even for adults.

Your new koi look like the ones I bought as sunsets. What exactly is the difference between a koi and a sunset? My sunsets have way more coverage than any koi I have ever seen. The one I kept has the entire body orange!
The only way I can get "sunset" to come up using the genetics calculator is two gold genes and two stripeless genes make a "sunset blusher". But if you change one of the gold genes to gold marble, then it becomes a koi. Mine are not sunset blushers because they have black like a koi. So are my sunsets just koi? Sunsets don't get as red as koi though. More orange than red. Kind of like yours are now.
This sunset/koi thing has me confused!
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #5
I just saw this now, you missed the number 3 in my name, so I didn't get the mention! lol

That Paraiba is GORGEOUS. And it looks pretty huge. Congrats!! I don't think $17 is a lot of an adult Paraiba! I would pay it in a heartbeat since I seem to have so much trouble finding them!! (unless its another boy haha)

I don't know what you mean about turning in my large Paraiba. Are you confusing them with the giant Koi that I need to get rid of? Cuz my paraibas are going NOwhere! lol I am sticking to the auction for getting rid of adult angels though. The LFS doesn't give much at all, even for adults.

Your new koi look like the ones I bought as sunsets. What exactly is the difference between a koi and a sunset? My sunsets have way more coverage than any koi I have ever seen. The one I kept has the entire body orange!
The only way I can get "sunset" to come up using the genetics calculator is two gold genes and two stripeless genes make a "sunset blusher". But if you change one of the gold genes to gold marble, then it becomes a koi. Mine are not sunset blushers because they have black like a koi. So are my sunsets just koi? Sunsets don't get as red as koi though. More orange than red. Kind of like yours are now.
This sunset/koi thing has me confused!
They would be a koi if it has marble in its genes. Sunsets are just really orange golds IMO, they normally have a really orange head and sometimes it goes over the rest of the body too. Then again there is a thing known as orange marble (they have dark marbling but sometimes have the orange coverage of a koi, not just the head of orange top marbles lol, there is an auction on aquabid right now that shows a good example of those).
They look similar to your paraiba males (which is why I joked that , I know you aren't getting rid of your boys lol). I am probably going to sell the larger male as his fins aren't as pretty, plus the smaller one has nicer iridescent patches. I still believe they are both male though. Three of the koi have improved color already, one it still a little stressed so hopefully he joined the others for color once they all start eating with gusto (who ever heard of an angel spitting out garlicked brine shrimp?).
You can see all of the koi have visible gills under the gill plates (none of them have gill defects or bent fins, so I am impressed with the local breeder that sold these to the store for store credit) so they are blushing koi, because of the marble gene they have. Right now I am eyeing their scales because they have very visible rows of scales so I don't know if they have a pearlscale gene or just some other weird genetic that gives them that look (of course it is not visible in my potato pictures, however I may be able to get better shots as I just picked up a power shot sony camera that is fun with practice shots so far).
 
bizaliz3
  • #6
Here's the one I bought as a sunset.
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Also....arent all koi blushing koi?? I mean....They have to have two stripeless genes to be koi in the 1st place.

So what makes these different than other koi?
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #7
Yup, nice koi you have. Sunsets are generally solid colored, so the marble/black marks on that one make it a koi with some really good orange coverage, even if it isn't startling orange.
Some koi do not show the blushing cheeks even from birth in my experience (the two I raised from wigglers one displayed blushing cheeks the whole time I had it and the other did not - it had solid color over the gills from when it started to look like an angel until it passed), I have two others that do not display the blushing cheeks or iridescent patches with these four.
You have a very clean picture, where the rows of scales can be seen the two of the four I have, have those rows very visible almost like they are on top of the rows of scales, I think it may just be the color of their body so far.
 
bizaliz3
  • #8
Yup, nice koi you have. Sunsets are generally solid colored, so the marble/black marks on that one make it a koi with some really good orange coverage, even if it isn't startling orange.
Some koi do not show the blushing cheeks even from birth in my experience (the two I raised from wigglers one displayed blushing cheeks the whole time I had it and the other did not - it had solid color over the gills from when it started to look like an angel until it passed), I have two others that do not display the blushing cheeks or iridescent patches with these four.
You have a very clean picture, where the rows of scales can be seen the two of the four I have, have those rows very visible almost like they are on top of the rows of scales, I think it may just be the color of their body so far.

That was actually a really old photo of her. I just took a new one for you. She laid eggs on her own so I know she's a she. Super nice coverage! Mine was also purchased from the LFS who had gotten them from a local breeder. I wonder why that breeder is calling them sunsets and non high coverage koi....
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aniroc
  • #9
A gold marble blushing is what I call a koi angelfish. Blushing is especially evident when they are young. Orange on the crown is what makes them "sunset". Orange color can also fade away in adult koi. Another feature is the silvery iridescent patches that older koi display. They are especially visible in indirect natural light.
 
bizaliz3
  • #10
A gold marble blushing is what I call a koi angelfish. Blushing is especially evident when they are young. Orange on the crown is what makes them "sunset". Orange color can also fade away in adult koi. Another feature is the silvery iridescent patches that older koi display. They are especially visible in indirect natural light.

The one I just posted has nice irridescent patches. You just can't see them in the photo.
While I'm familiar with what you described...I still feel like there is an obvious difference between the one I just posted and a more standard looking koi like this one.
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Are they really just the same thing? They seem so different. You know?
 
aniroc
  • #11
The "more standard looking koi" has that waxy, translucent body...Is that is?
 
bizaliz3
  • #12
The color saturation on the "standard koi" is much more vibrant and solid and localized. Whereas the ones Mcasella got and the first one I posted....they all have much more coverage, but much less vibrancy and the color is more splotchy on the crown rather than solid and saturated (on mine anyway). They seem like different phenotypes altogether. Is that even possible?

I hope you don't mind Mcasella , but I am curious what chromedome52 thinks about this one too. So Chrome, of the two I just posted, are they both the same exact phenotype with much different expressions? Or might there be genetic differences involved?


Edit: I just want to add, that if they are the same exact phenotype, I think I prefer the more saturated color vs the higher area of coverage. Once you get to the point where the entire body is colored....it just starts to look like a weird colored marble. LOL
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #13
The color saturation on the "standard koi" is much more vibrant and solid and localized. Whereas the ones Mcasella got and the first one I posted....they all have much more coverage, but much less vibrancy and the color is more splotchy on the crown rather than solid and saturated (on mine anyway). They seem like different phenotypes altogether. Is that even possible?

I hope you don't mind Mcasella , but I am curious what chromedome52 thinks about this one too. So Chrome, of the two I just posted, are they both the same exact phenotype with much different expressions? Or might there be genetic differences involved?


Edit: I just want to add, that if they are the same exact phenotype, I think I prefer the more saturated color vs the higher area of coverage. Once you get to the point where the entire body is colored....it just starts to look like a weird colored marble. LOL
I have had kois with the same amount of saturation as the one with the orange top. I expect the ones I currently have to color up (as in saturation rather than coverage, right now they already have 60-70% orange coverage).

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bizaliz3
  • #14
I have had kois with the same amount of saturation as the one with the orange top. I expect the ones I currently have to color up (as in saturation rather than coverage, right now they already have 60-70% orange coverage).
View attachment 446619

I know I am totally overthinking it.
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #15
I know I am totally overthinking it.
I mean look at angelsplus koi angels, while the younger ones don't look like much in their videos the s they have of multiple adults of the same lines are certainly stunning.
 
bizaliz3
  • #16
I mean look at angelsplus koi angels, while the younger ones don't look like much in their videos the s they have of multiple adults of the same lines are certainly stunning.

I just think that this local breeder calling them sunsets rather than advertising them as high coverage koi is strange...and it threw me off.
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #17
I just think that this local breeder calling them sunsets rather than advertising them as high coverage koi is strange...and it threw me off.
Maybe they didn't know what to call them? And were just trying to get them out of their tanks (who knows they might have had ten spawns going on at once)?
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #18
These are my newest babies. Trying to figure out why they sent me koi when koi are not blue.

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bizaliz3
  • #19
Just an added bonus? or what?
Where are they from? Are the black ones pinoys?
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #20
Just an added bonus? or what?
Where are they from? Are the black ones pinoys?
angelmania, there are 17 of them. I believe the black black ones will be pinoy, the 6 black blushing I am not sure yet. Five of them are koi, the lightest one you can see above in the middle, then there is another light colored angel that I believe is a zebra or similar.
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #21
And lee just got back to me that the six I am calling black blushing are all pinoy paraibas.
 
bizaliz3
  • #22
angelmania, there are 17 of them. I believe the black black ones will be pinoy, the 6 black blushing I am not sure yet. Five of them are koi, the lightest one you can see above in the middle, then there is another light colored angel that I believe is a zebra or similar.

I hate you so much right now!! lol
I am pretty sure the black blushing ones are Pinoy Paraibas. I am not aware of angelmania selling just black angels. And they were giving away the pinoy paraibas last week when I was on there, and that is why I almost gave in and placed an order with them.

You are so mean!!!! hhaha

Just saw your post about hearing back from Lee. I already knew they were pinoy paraibas.
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #23
I hate you so much right now!! lol
I am pretty sure the black blushing ones are Pinoy Paraibas. I am not aware of angelmania selling just black angels. And they were giving away the pinoy paraibas last week when I was on there, and that is why I almost gave in and placed an order with them.

You are so mean!!!! hhaha

Just saw your post about hearing back from Lee. I already knew they were pinoy paraibas.
I mostly contacted him about the koi (I guess he felt bad about the last order from him that died except for Stratus the lemon marble - it has patches on both sides that look like sideways scales right above the pectoral fins so look like striation markings - I ordered koi in that order and was sent three, one of which was rough and died within an hour of me having it out of the bag during acclimation, the other two were good for a little while). I looked in the bags and saw 11 almost black/black angels, five orange ones, and the one almost white. The other include a blue marble, plat marble, and the blue one that is either a silver or a zebra, right now they are still settling in.
I had to move all my green giants back into QT because they were refusing to eat (out of six I now have three - three of them just quit eating and hid).
 
bizaliz3
  • #24
I mostly contacted him about the koi (I guess he felt bad about the last order from him that died except for Stratus the lemon marble - it has patches on both sides that look like sideways scales right above the pectoral fins so look like striation markings - I ordered koi in that order and was sent three, one of which was rough and died within an hour of me having it out of the bag during acclimation, the other two were good for a little while). I looked in the bags and saw 11 almost black/black angels, five orange ones, and the one almost white. The other include a blue marble, plat marble, and the blue one that is either a silver or a zebra, right now they are still settling in.
I had to move all my green giants back into QT because they were refusing to eat (out of six I now have three - three of them just quit eating and hid).

I was just teasing But I am super jealous!

So what exactly did you order from angelmania vs what you received?

I am so sorry to hear about the green giants!! That's a bummer! I lost 3 of the 6 I got too. :-( I just didn't get them all at once.

Do you think the green giants have any blue genes?
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #25
I was just teasing But I am super jealous!

So what exactly did you order from angelmania vs what you received?

I am so sorry to hear about the green giants!! That's a bummer! I lost 3 of the 6 I got too. :-( I just didn't get them all at once.

Do you think the green giants have any blue genes?
I am not sure, they match my smokey paraibas for body color (the giants have darker fins though), so I am not sure what they have genetic wise - though I do know they are not seal points.
I ordered a random batch, the free pinoy paraibas (I have three blue marbles already from a different person entirely), and one blue pinoy wifI (with pearlscale). 6-7 of them are veil tails (the koi are all standards) and surprisingly some are bigger than nickel size, most are dime or between dime and nickel. The pinoy that looks really large is almost quarter in size (and a veil tail). so over half of the assorted blues are veils.
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #26
So far everyone is doing great, lost the two weaker pinoys (its seems all nine "blacks" were pinoy paraibas!! 0.0 one of them was worrisome on arrival, the other wasn't doing so good after travel, but everyone else recovered from the travelling in a box), so there are seven of the pinoy parais left, all five koi, the little plat marble, blue or pinoy marble (it has a very dark green/blue look to it where the black of marble doesn't cover), and the ghost (which may be a pearlscale, it looks very shiny).
It is very fun the watch the remaining 15 eat as they took to my flake mix just fine (and nibble on the pleco food that goes in there as the new plecos I got went into QT with them - reds). They are getting fed twice a day, the others I have are warming up to me when I approach the tank (the babies immediately within two days got excited to see me by the tank lol), the koi are a little more welcoming than the two paraiba adults I have (who hang out together pretty much all over the tank, I feel bad that I am going to be taking that tank down and putting everyone in there, having to catch everything is going to be a pain).
 
BichirKeeper84
  • #27
Parabolas?
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #28
Parabolas?
Paraibas, it is a color type of angelfish, the first post of this thread has two pictured on it.
 
BichirKeeper84
  • #29
Hmm did bizaliz3 mention it? If so.. She owes me a fish

Inside joke
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #30
Hey, bizaliz3 have you heard of a pinoy marble? I believe the blue marble that was shipped with everyone else is actually a pinoy because of the darkness of the blue - four of the pinoys are developing their patches! (The largest is quarter in size or darn close, the smallest that has it showing is nickel in size.)

Most of them have put on some serious size from their tiny arrival (except the largest, it was large when it came in and has gone up a size with two feedings a day). The smallest is nickel sized, no more dime sized. No one else has passed so out of 17, 15 are alive and giving angel attitude. They steal the pleco food that has gone into the tank as well, which is why they only get fed twice a day instead of more - otherwise they would be waddling.
The blue ghost (it hasn't shown any stripes) looks like it might be a pearlscale as it is so shiny compared to the others, it also is the only really light colored one so the others put a rip in its tail.
7 pinoy paraibas, 5 koi (one has pretty much no orange coverage, no orange at all), 1 blue ghost pearl, 1 pinoy marble, and 1 platinum marble (though I need to make sure that one is still kicking it with the others - the pinoy have been my main focus the past week).
 
bizaliz3
  • #31
No I have not heard of a Pinoy marble.
They all sound so beautiful you really are going to have to take a moment to try and get some good pictures of them for me I know it's not easy but you gotta do it for me lol
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #32
He went straight to the back when the phone came out, I also got shots of my other blue marbles (a lighter morph and a darker morph). And I got a shot of one of my two rio paraguay ancistrus (they are normally lighter, but they have been moved to this tank with black substrate and colored up to match). You can see the difference in the blues, he keeps this color all the time and has the nice green/blue look. The pinoys in the third picture aren't that phone friendly (aka they get way too close, had way too many butt shots when I was trying to get pictures of my bigger blue marbles, most of them being the orange koi and the smokey paraibas).

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bizaliz3
  • #33
The paraiba pinoy in the 3rd pic is going to be stunning!!!
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #34
The paraiba pinoy in the 3rd pic is going to be stunning!!!
Four of them look like that - two are veil, two are standard. Of the seven that one is third biggest, the biggest is a little darker but also a veil (it also has an orangey looking patch in its dorsal so far). The second biggest and two smaller ones look like the one pictured (the smaller are the standards, all the big ones are veils it seems). All the koi are standards, the ghost looking one (that alternates having stripes and not, but never full stripes) is a standard, the pinoy marble is standard and the platinum marble disappeared (so 14/17 survivors).
 
bizaliz3
  • #35
Four of them look like that - two are veil, two are standard. Of the seven that one is third biggest, the biggest is a little darker but also a veil (it also has an orangey looking patch in its dorsal so far). The second biggest and two smaller ones look like the one pictured (the smaller are the standards, all the big ones are veils it seems). All the koi are standards, the ghost looking one (that alternates having stripes and not, but never full stripes) is a standard, the pinoy marble is standard and the platinum marble disappeared (so 14/17 survivors).

I am so tempted to beg you to ship me a couple of those pinoy pariabas!! lol

Strange that the veils are larger. They must be older, because the veil tails are usually the smallest bodied angel in a particular spawn. In my experience anyway....
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #36
I am so tempted to beg you to ship me a couple of those pinoy pariabas!! lol

Strange that the veils are larger. They must be older, because the veil tails are usually the smallest bodied angel in a particular spawn. In my experience anyway....
I'll trade you a couple of them for a couple brown long fins? How is that long fin blue-eye male I sent you doing?
I want them to be a little bit bigger before I do any shipping of course, the smallest is still small (just under nickel). The neat thing is they group together so neatly when they are trying to beg for more food, so it is a bunch of black angels in one corner, and the kois dotted between them (the pinoy marble is a bit of a loner, as is the ghost - the ghost gets nipped at by most of the kois so that is the reason for it not wanting to hang out with the others).
 
bizaliz3
  • #37
I'll trade you a couple of them for a couple brown long fins? How is that long fin blue-eye male I sent you doing?
I want them to be a little bit bigger before I do any shipping of course, the smallest is still small (just under nickel). The neat thing is they group together so neatly when they are trying to beg for more food, so it is a bunch of black angels in one corner, and the kois dotted between them (the pinoy marble is a bit of a loner, as is the ghost - the ghost gets nipped at by most of the kois so that is the reason for it not wanting to hang out with the others).

Oh yes, watching them school as juvies is the BEST to look at. My absolute favorite thing!! If only they would do it as adults!!

Ya, I definitely wouldn't want you shipping them this soon after having been shipped to you. But one day down the road maybe?

My long fin brown pleco babies are very small right now. Maybe by fall when the weather is more ideal for shipping, they will be big enough to ship to you. And the angels will have had time to grow and get stronger too Too bad my pinoy and Paraiba are not looking like they are going to be very successful based on their first spawn. It was an epic fail. haha

Your guy is still doing well. He lives in a 29 with one of my breeding pairs of angels. Just the 2 angels, their brand new babies and the pleco. I gave him that standard finned female a while back who ended up dying inexplicably. So its just him. I don't have a good standard female to pair him up with. And I am having to take a bit of a break with the pleco breeding at the moment anyway. Business is very very slow during the summer, so I am drowning in juvies right now! And of course the EXPLOSION of angelfish babies has thrown a wrench in my ability to grow out any more plecos. LOL eventually I will use him though!!
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #38
Oh yes, watching them school as juvies is the BEST to look at. My absolute favorite thing!! If only they would do it as adults!!

Ya, I definitely wouldn't want you shipping them this soon after having been shipped to you. But one day down the road maybe?

My long fin brown pleco babies are very small right now. Maybe by fall when the weather is more ideal for shipping, they will be big enough to ship to you. And the angels will have had time to grow and get stronger too Too bad my pinoy and Paraiba are not looking like they are going to be very successful based on their first spawn. It was an epic fail. haha

Your guy is still doing well. He lives in a 29 with one of my breeding pairs of angels. Just the 2 angels, their brand new babies and the pleco. I gave him that standard finned female a while back who ended up dying inexplicably. So its just him. I don't have a good standard female to pair him up with. And I am having to take a bit of a break with the pleco breeding at the moment anyway. Business is very very slow during the summer, so I am drowning in juvies right now! And of course the EXPLOSION of angelfish babies has thrown a wrench in my ability to grow out any more plecos. LOL eventually I will use him though!!
How long are his fins? My biggest male has some nice flow, my smaller male has slightly longer fins though. (Right now I am worried that Dot might be going male on me, which doesn't make much sense for it to be changing now as opposed to when all the others did - and that would be some really bad odds, because that would be 5/5 males).
My main fight right now is getting a female yellow (standard or long, doesn't really matter) Cadmium is doing just fine, though the female that is in with him is a green dragon that is too big to go with my other green dragons lol.
I have to break down my 45 (putting up a 60 - the four foot kind), and my 20h because of house construction and weight issues on the second floor - might convince myself to set it back up somewhere upstairs that won't have construction going on), which has most of my larger angels including my blue smokey pair (I need to move them they are holy terrors!).
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #39
Five of the seven (Bennie is still tiny compared to the others) are going to have to be upgraded sooner than I was expecting as all of them are quarter in size. Right now I am trying to figure what exactly is wrong with Bennie to try and get him eating like the others and showing a fat tum instead of his lackluster one (he isn't eating enough and he doesn't like frozen brine shrimp... >.<'). The sixth one is eating fine it just didn't take off in growth like the other five. I sold one of the paraibas I have, the other is doing fine (I think it might be female), the local koi are doing pretty good, I have started feeding that tank twice a day instead of just once and everyone is looking healthier. I have four larger/prebreeder sized angels to upgrade to the bigger tank however I need to move my blue smokey pair to another tank because they are (mostly just the male, he takes cheap shots at everyone) terrorizing most of the tank. Once I move the four larger ones out I can move the pinoy parabs in as well as two or three others that need the upgrade (and hopefully are going to play nice).
 
Mcasella
  • Thread Starter
  • #40
Little Bennie didn't make it sadly. Four of the largest pinoy got moved to the big tank where I swear they have gained 1/4-1/2 an inch in size already. Of the six left four are veils and two are standards. I have one of the two paraibas that started this thread (the other went out west with several other angels). The local koi all look good and seem healthy, but are growing slowly.
I will have to move two of the other angelmania babies over as they are getting bigger (two of the koi), and my newest GSP gened angels as they are too large to stay in the tank they are in long (quarter size).
Picture is of one of the two left in qt (both are veils), not yet quarter sized.

20180722_102317.jpeg
 

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