Obligatory Newbie Cycle Thread

HI all. New to the forum and new to aquarium ownership. I've read (and read and read) about the nitrogen cycle, I'm having some trouble getting things going right.

Here's the history:
About 5 or 6 weeks ago my kid got a carnival goldfish. We went out and got a 10 gallon tank to start. Went through all the checklists to get things going. No surprise, "Goldie" didn't make it past day 3 [honestly never looks right from day one. Sluggish, no appetite].

Flash forward a couple weeks, he was ready to try again. This time we went to the shop and got a couple healthy looking platys. A pair of males.

Possible dumb mistake #1 - thinking that the tank, which had been sitting idle since Godlie passed, might have already gotten a jump start on cycling, we just did a vaccuum/~50% water change at that point and plowed ahead from there (while adding conditioner and quick start). We kinda cornered ourselves because we went ahead and got the fish with no other plan, high ammonia levels be damned. In hindsight, terrible start.

Since then, the tanks has been testing off the charts for ammonia. Starting last weekend, I began doing daily water changes and conditioning. Here's the routine, which started Saturday.

1) Test (API reagent ammonia test) - test comes back greener than Kermit [PH is >8.0 too, so ammonia, not ammonium]
2) 20% water change + stress coat/conditioner + quick start [API]
3) Every other day, API ammo-lock as recommended
4) Continue testing, always reads >8.0 ppm
5) Periodically testing for nitrates - always 0.

Today, because of the seeming lack of progress, I did a 40% water change. Tested immediately after the change - STILL reading >8.0 ppm!

I swear I even smell ammonia when I open the tank.

Meanwhile, the fish seem perfectly fine. Active, color is great, fins out, no spots, constant appetite.

Where do I go from here? Just plow through with the water changes until the tide turns? Try a different bottled bacteria? Give up on bottled bacteria? What's the alternative to bottled bacteria?

 

Okay obviously you don't have a cycled filter, for the love of your fish , please do water change every day, bottle bacteria is good but they will only help speedup the process, the only thing you can do to help your water quality is adding aquarium plants, live plants will feed of the ammonia, nitrates , and nitrite.

 

So no need for special concern at this point? Just stay the course with the water changes? I've been adding the quick start daily as I read there's no harm other than expense - am I just throwing $ away? Sounds like maybe I should ditch the quick start and get a plant.

 

I would do more that 20% for the water change in your case. If the ammonia is high and you have high ph.

 

It might be worth picking up a bottle of Seachem Prime water conditioner to help your fish through the cycle. It binds ammonia for 24 hours (by converting it into ammonium, I believe) while still leaving it available to your bacteria, so you can add a little every day to keep the water from becoming too toxic while it cycles. It's also probably one of the least expensive water conditioners over time, since you only need about two drops to treat a gallon of water. You'll go through it faster with daily dosing of course, but once you're cycled a bottle will last a pretty long time.

 

Yeah, I did the 40% today, will probably be doing 30 daily.

I'd seen somewhere that high PH can slow bacteria growth. Should I be more aggressively trying to get PH down?

 

Are you saying the ammonia is more than 8ppm? That sounds suspicious, not saying it's impossible since you're using the bottled bacteria which I've heard messes with your measurements, but still that sounds excessively high and your fish would probably be dead even with the ammo lock. Personally I used tetra safestart and it worked, and didn't mess up my readings.

Yeah, I did the 40% today, will probably be doing 30 daily.

I'd seen somewhere that high PH can slow bacteria growth. Should I be more aggressively trying to get PH down?

On the contrary, bacteria prefers higher ph. Don't fight your ph.

 

Welcome to the forum! Good for you for getting the testing kit. However, I have to say your constant readings of 8.0 ammonia & fish acting fine makes me wonder if your test kit is defective. Has it ever Not tested 8.0? What results do you get if you test your tap / source water? Can you take a sample of your water to a pet store & ask them to test it? If your source water comes back as 0 ammonia I would try a dilution test. To do this you use 50% tank water and 50% no ammonia water (tap or bottled). Then when you get the results multiply by two.
To review: which bacterial starter did you use?
While you are figuring out your test kit, I would increase your water changes to at least 50% daily with vacuuming.
Keep coming back... we will help you figure this out!

 

It might be worth picking up a bottle of Seachem Prime water conditioner to help your fish through the cycle. It binds ammonia for 24 hours (by converting it into ammonium, I believe) while still leaving it available to your bacteria, so you can add a little every day to keep the water from becoming too toxic while it cycles. It's also probably one of the least expensive water conditioners over time, since you only need about two drops to treat a gallon of water. You'll go through it faster with daily dosing of course, but once you're cycled a bottle will last a pretty long time.

API Ammo-Lock does the same and seems to be working as the fish are looking fine 2 weeks in.

 

It might be worth picking up a bottle of Seachem Prime water conditioner to help your fish through the cycle. It binds ammonia for 24 hours (by converting it into ammonium, I believe) while still leaving it available to your bacteria, so you can add a little every day to keep the water from becoming too toxic while it cycles. It's also probably one of the least expensive water conditioners over time, since you only need about two drops to treat a gallon of water. You'll go through it faster with daily dosing of course, but once you're cycled a bottle will last a pretty long time.

Aaaand I completely missed the fact that you're using ammo-lock. I think I'd prefer prime, but consider most of this comment rescinded.

API Ammo-Lock does the same and seems to be working as the fish are looking fine 2 weeks in.

I just noticed that while reading through other comments! Sorry about that. Bad reading comprehension on my part.

 

Welcome to the forum! Good for you for getting the testing kit. However, I have to say your constant readings of 8.0 ammonia & fish acting fine makes me wonder if your test kit is defective. Has it ever Not tested 8.0? What results do you get if you test your tap / source water? Can you take a sample of your water to a pet store & ask them to test it? If your source water comes back as 0 ammonia I would try a dilution test. To do this you use 50% tank water and 50% no ammonia water (tap or bottled). Then when you get the results multiply by two.
To review: which bacterial starter did you use?
While you are figuring out your test kit, I would increase your water changes to at least 50% daily with vacuuming.
Keep coming back... we will help you figure this out!

I had the same thought - tap water tested at 0 ppm ammonia. I'll try a dilution test to see if I can get an on-scale reading, thanks for the tip.

I'm using API Quick Start.

 

I would do 50% water changes every 6 hours until the ammonia is below .25ppm with treated, temperature matched water and continue to use the Ammo Lock as it's probably the only reason your fish are alive still. Then if you want to use a bottled bacteria get some Tetra Safe Start+, SeaChem Stability, or DrTim's One and Only.

 

Are you saying the ammonia is more than 8ppm? That sounds suspicious, not saying it's impossible since you're using the bottled bacteria which I've heard messes with your measurements

Shoot - that starts to make some sense. The fact that it's still testing off the charts immediately after a 40% water change (with water that tested at 0) was really throwing me for a loop.

I think at this point I'm going to quit with the quick start, keep up with the large water changes and ammo lock, hope to see improvement in ammonia readings in a few days, then try a different starter.

Many thanks!

 

Can you tell me your ammonia bottle #1 and #2 batch numbers?

So far, I have 83A1016 and 83B0616 for #1 and 84A1016 and 84B0616 for #2 listed as probably bad.

 

Okay, if your source water tests at 0 ammonia I would recommend 2-4 back to back 50% water changes with the goal of getting the ammonia under 1.0. Since it doesn't seem to be your test (sorry - broken test would have been the easiest fix) I would assume your ammonia levels are way higher (even if just thrown off by the bacterial starter - I have never heard of them tearing this high. So... do a dilution test, then the back to back 50% water changes. Your guideline for a fish-in cycle would do well as...
If ammonia + nitrites < 1.0, dose with ammo-lock and retest in 24 hours.
If ammonia + nitrites > or = 1.0, do a 50% water change, dose with ammolock & retest in 24 hours.
Because your ammonia reading is so off the charts however you need to get it down into the range of readable before starting to use the guidelines.
CindiL is super knowledgeable & may have better advice - if she suggests anything different from the rest of us ... follow her advice!

 

Hello and welcome to the forum

I had to chuckle a little because that's how I started out in this hobby myself, my youngest many years ago came home with a carnival goldfish "Mr. Swim Swim" and he did go on to live a couple of years though we didn't no what we were doing. You've already gotten good advice.

I would actually do a 90% water change today, then re-test ammonia. If you still get a reading above 1.0, do another 90% water change. Make sure to match temperature. Right now the ammo-lock is enough but once you get nitrites it won't be. Using the formula above you'll want to pick up some Seachem Prime because it detoxifies ammonia like ammo-lock but it also detoxifies nitrites up to 1.0 per single dose per full water volume. (1 ml for a 10 gallon tank daily).

The only bacterial starter that messes with your ammonia levels initially is Tetra Safe Start Plus and it only alters them a bit. Your ammonia level is high from the goldfish most likely and uneaten fish food. Switching to the platies was a very smart idea.

 

Since with all of the quick start I've used I've never seen any nitrates, and now that I've stopped with the quick start I think I'm safe in terms of nitrates until I get through this ammonia battle out of the way and start adding a different starter. I'll of course keep testing for nitrates to be safe...

Meanwhile, after 3 days straight of 40% changes (current bucket capacity makes more than that a serious pain) I think the tide is turning.

Yesterday before the change, dilution test calculated out to ~8.0-9.0 ppm. Today, before the change, it was ~6.0-7.0 and after ~4.0-4.5 (good to see the post-change test read right in that 60% range of the pre-change result. Gives me confidence the test and my reading are accurate). Moving in the right direction!

 

Since with all of the quick start I've used I've never seen any nitrates, and now that I've stopped with the quick start I think I'm safe in terms of nitrates until I get through this ammonia battle out of the way and start adding a different starter. I'll of course keep testing for nitrates to be safe...

Meanwhile, after 3 days straight of 40% changes (current bucket capacity makes more than that a serious pain) I think the tide is turning.

Yesterday before the change, dilution test calculated out to ~8.0-9.0 ppm. Today, before the change, it was ~6.0-7.0 and after ~4.0-4.5 (good to see the post-change test read right in that 60% range of the pre-change result. Gives me confidence the test and my reading are accurate). Moving in the right direction!

It's the nitrites you need to worry about and not the nitrates so much. Nitrites are half as toxic as the ammonia and will be dangerous if over 3ppm. The nitrates can go as far as 40ppm without affecting most fish negatively.

Here's a good chart on the danger zones for each of them and actions you should take:

 

Update. Things are moving well in the right direction.

With the 40% water changes, started to see fast and steady reduction of ammonia. About a 25% drop day-to-day when testing right before the change. After a few days, that stalled out at ~1.5-2.0. So went out and got a bigger bucket. Was able to do a 60% change yesterday. And voila got a nice 1.0 reading today. So scaling back to 25% changes and start adding Safstart and Prime.

Most importantly the fish continue to be super happy and active. They love checking out the siphon while I vacuum and swimming around in the current when I refill.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

 

Update. Things are moving well in the right direction.

With the 40% water changes, started to see fast and steady reduction of ammonia. About a 25% drop day-to-day when testing right before the change. After a few days, that stalled out at ~1.5-2.0. So went out and got a bigger bucket. Was able to do a 60% change yesterday. And voila got a nice 1.0 reading today. So scaling back to 25% changes and start adding Safstart and Prime.

Most importantly the fish continue to be super happy and active. They love checking out the siphon while I vacuum and swimming around in the current when I refill.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Ideally you should lower it to less than .25ppm and try to maintain it there through the cycle process when you have fish in the tank.

 

So I did one more large water change, which brought down to the .25 range.

So now that I've added the Safestart+, a couple questions:

* It said to dump a bunch in when first starting. So that's what I did. Should I also be adding some in on the daily small water changes?
* About how long should I expect to start seeing nitrite/nitrate spikes?

 

Great you finally got that ammonia down. With SafeStart + you put the whole bottle in at once, then you wait for at least a week before testing, they say two weeks but I think its ok to test at one week and see if the TSS+ is moving things along. Feed sparingly during this week, just a little bit every day.

People often don't see nitrites with TSS+ or only a small amount as that particular bottle comes housed with a lot of bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates. The nitrates will be the end of the nitrogen cycle and you will sometimes start seeing them at the same time as ammonia and nitrites as a small amount get converted over. You'll know you're cycled when ammonia and nitrites are at 0. After that you'll want to keep nitrates below 20 with water changes, ideally at 10 or below.

 

Cool makes sense.

But should I continue daily water changes now? 20/25%? Should I be adding TSS+ when I do?

 

You added the whole bottle already right? No, this type you just add in once and then don't do any water changes for at least that first week BUT feed sparingly. This is how they recommend doing it.

 

Yep, dumped the lot in.

Man, after weeks of daily intervention is feels so wrong to not be doing anything!!

 

Yeah, I know. Remind me how many fish are left in this tank (10g right?)

 

Same as we started this with, 2 platys, 10 gallons

 

That's perfect for cycling with TSS+, just double checking.

 

So it's been a week. Tested for ammonia - back up to ~2.0

What now? Water change and more TSS+?

 

What model/type of filter are you using?

 

Aqueon QuietFlow Fresh & Saltwater Aquarium Filter

 

Oh, I guess that link didn't work right. It's the Aqueon QuietFlow 10

EDIT AGAIN: Disregard my previous freak out [which I've edited out]. I was looking at s of the QuietFlow LED Pro, not the QuietFlow Aquarium Power Filter 10. Different beast. I've got all the right parts in place. Phew.

 

It does appear the TSS+ you put in failed I am sorry to say. Do a couple of 50% or one giant 75% water change if tap and tank ph are within .4 of each other and you can try it again or switch to Seachem Stability. If using TSS+ wait 24 hours after the water change to add it in.

What is the ph in your tank right now? how about nitrites and nitrates?

 

PH has been consistently way high (off the 8.0 scale of the test I have).

Nitrates continue to flat-line

My local shop doesn't carry stand alone nitrite test, so I don't have one. I'll remedy that at some point.

 

Can you order one through amazon? It would be nice to know where you're at in your cycle as far as those go too. Until then, do that large water change and get the ammonia down as it will be very toxic with your ph.

 

Update - for the first time I got a positive test for Nitrates! 5.0ppm. So, unless I completely misunderstand, there must be some active bacteria colonies, right? So that's good.

Still seeing ammonia increasing over time though. Not sure what to make of that. I'm back on daily large water changes to bring it back down.

No, I still don't have a nitrite test. My dumb excuse is that we got a dog this week (because we didn't have enough to deal with?). I just finally ordered one.

It's a mystery how so much ammonia is building up. 2 small fish in a 10 gallon tank, going from .25 to 4.0 in a week seems crazy. One suggestion I got elsewhere was that maybe I should just change the filter media - maybe there's just a build up of rotting gunk in there? But now that I'm seeing evidence of active bacteria, I'm hesitant to do that. I've rinsed the media in the past (early on I did a rinse with fresh tap water. More recently I rinsed it off in a bucket of water I'd pulled from the tank during a change). Should I change it? Maybe wait a little longer and see if the bacteria starts doing its job?

 

just get a test kit and change water to keep the levels low till the tank cycles

 

You really don't ever want to change out your filter media, you'll be throwing out your cycle and it's just getting going now. I'd do a huge water change (or two) if your ammonia has climbed up to 4.0, that is deadly. You just rinse the filter pads in old tank water weekly and get the gunk off. Not rinsing them will definitely lead to ammonia spikes. So will uneaten food or decaying plants.

Adding in a bottle of TSS+ will help finish your cycle quickly.

When the filter pad starts falling apart and you really need to change it then just cut the floss off of the frame, toss the frame and carbon if any and tuck the floss in with a new filter pad for a couple of weeks to seed the new pad. A lot of us just buy padding and have a DIY filter with something like this:

 

Do a minimum of a 75% water change. That should bring you ammonia level to 1 ppm. Hopefully you have a bottle of Prime and that should neutralize the ammonia.

 

Well I'm happy to report things are well under control. I did end up dumping a bunch more TSS+ in (this time I put it directly onto the filter medium...maybe that was the deciding factor?). Soon after things turned around, and ammonia's finally dropped. Been several weeks now, consistently testing at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5-10 nitrate.

Now about the algae...