Not sure if next move after disrupted fishless cycle

Are you doing a fish in cycle, fishless cycle or was your tank cycled and you had a sudden ammonia or nitrite spike?:

I am helping my 2 kids do a fishless cycle in 2 Aqueon easy-clean mini-bow tanks to get ready for the bettas (1 per tank) they want to get.


Tank

What is the water volume of the tank?:

2.5

What type of water are you using in your tank? (tap, well, RO/DI, other):

Tap water that is softened. (If necessary we can go outside to get water that isn’t softened from the main.)

When did you start cycling the tank?:
July 17 (19 days ago)


What type of filtration are you running on this tank? (sponge, HOB, canister, other):

If canister or HOB list all the media you are running in it. (manufactured cartridges, sponge, etc.):
The included Aqueon filter has a cartridge which I plan on just leaving in there and rinsing in the old water occasionally. I also bought some coarse sponge filter media and fashioned a pre-filter baffle around the intake because it seemed like it might injure a betta and I figured we could use the extra surface area for beneficial bacteria. I also added a strip of the sponge, kind of wedged in between the cartridge and outflow, to calm down the current.
Do you have good water agitation/surface movement?:
I think so; I added sponge to slow it down a bit because it seemed pretty fast for what I’ve read bettas need, but it still visibly moves stuff around on the surface and right in front of the outflow.
What is the water temperature?:
Heater thermostats started at 78 in both tanks, but water temp often got up to 80 (we’re in Southern California) so I adjusted the temp to 80 a few days ago. Now at 9pm the tank closest to the window is 81 and the other is at 80.
If fish in cycling
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts): N/A

How often do you feed them and how much?: N/A

Are they showing signs of distress? (fish hiding, staying at the top, looking pale, torn fins, etc): N/A



Do you have live plants in the tank?: Yes

If so are they healthy and actively growing?:

Mostly; some melted a lot, some still have some melting happening, but they seem to have new sprouts, except the anubias, but they look beautiful.

Products used while cycling

If this is a fishless cycle what ammonia source are you using? (fish food, Dr Tim’s ammonia, other):

Dr Tim’s ammonia

If adding liquid ammonia how often do you dose ammonia in your tank and in what quantity? (1ppm, 2ppm etc.):



OK, so we started out doing Dr. Tim’s method with both his One and Only AND three big ceramic rings (per tank) from cycled tanks at my LFS.

Day 1: I added Ammonia to get it up to 2ppm after using about half the smallest One and Only bottle split between the 2 tanks.

Day 2: Following Dr. Tim’s recipe card, we measured pH (7.6+, never gone down), ammonia (2ppm), Nitrite (0) (all with API drop tests)

Day 3: added ammonia +2ppm

Day 4: ammonia measured 4ppm, nitrites 0

Day 5: ammonia measured 4ppm, nitrites ~0.15 ppm maybe? (In one tank—other still 0ppm)

Day 6: Didn’t add ammonia because it hadn’t gone down yet

Day 7: ammonia measured 4ppm, nitrites 0.25 ppm!

THEN we had to go out of town for 6 days!

When we got back, we tried to pick back up but…

Day 14: ammonia measured 0ppm (yay!), nitrites 2-5ppm? (Super hard to read API color chart! Not safe to buy bettas! Boo!) Day 15: Added 2ppm ammonia and the rest of the One and Only to see if it might help…

Day 16: ammonia measured 0ppm (yay!), nitrites 2-5ppm or more? So hard to tell, but pretty darn purple.

Day 17: ammonia measured 0ppm (yay!), nitrites 5ppm or more? Darker purple!!! Too high to add ammonia. Read that high nitrites maybe kill BB, but maybe just slow them down, maybe plant melt is adding ammonia, tried 50% water change, no change in nitrate reading, so ppm must be way off the charts!

Day 18: ammonia measured 0ppm (yay!), nitrites 5ppm or more (still!). After another 50% water change, no change in nitrite levels. Realized I hadn’t tested tap water, so I did, conditioned and not. Turns out the warm tap water we’d been using to match the tank water temp measures 0.5 ppm nitrates, but cold tap measures 0ppm. Thanks water heater—ugh! Did a 50% water change with cold tap water, no measurable change in nitrites. Also filled test vial with half cold tap and half “dirty” tank water to see how far we had to go and got 1-2ppm nitrates. Some hope?

Day 19: ammonia measured 0ppm (yay!), nitrites maybe 2-5ppm but still really purple.

Clearly not getting fish soon because of nitrites, but I’m not sure what to do.

If using fish food as your ammonia source how much are you adding and how often?: N/A

Are you using a dechlorinater and if so, which one?:

Aqueon water conditioner that came with the tanks but we’re almost out so I bought Zoo med Betta H2O drops.

Are you using bottled bacteria and if so, which one?:

Dr. Tim’s One and Only

Did you add seeded media from a previously cycled tank?:

Yes

What other products/chemicals are you using? (list them all): N/A

Testing and cycling process

What was your knowledge of the nitrogen cycle before beginning to cycle your tank? (none, beginner, intermediate (please explain), advanced):

beginner

What do you use to test the water? (API liquid, test strips, other):

API

Did you test your tap water for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH, if so post the results below?:

see below

Have you done any water changes and if so, when?:

see above

How much water did you change?:

see above

Did you vacuum the substrate?:

No

Did you clean your filter, filter media, decorations and/or glass?:

No

If using disposable cartridges have you replaced one recently?:

No

*Parameters - Very Important

What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Tank water:

Ammonia: 0ppm

Nitrite: 2-5ppm (not instantly purple anymore but hard to tell between 2 & 5 ppm after 5 minutes)

Nitrate: I didn’t get the API master kit so I don’t have this test, but I ordered test strips that are supposed to be reliable enough, to tide us over until we use up our current tests and can get the API master kit.

pH: 7.6+
Tap water:

Ammonia: 0.25ppm (ah—might this be the problem?)

Nitrite: 0ppm (cold)

Nitrate: I didn’t get the master kit so I don’t have this, but ordered test strips that are supposed to be reliable enough

pH: 7.0
Explain your cycling problem in detail. (Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the problem leading up to now) Please see above and:
What should I do about my .25ppm ammonia tap water? Is it possible just the nitrite-eating BB died out, since clearly the ammonia-eaters are thriving (especially since they’ve been process my .25 ammonia tap water into 0ppm tank water)! I’m afraid to add ammonia with the nitrites so high. Should we keep doing water changes to clear out the nitrites and (apparently) give a low dose of ammonia?

I decided to join and post here for help and advice before doing anything else. Is there any way to speed this up? Just measure and wait?
Also tank water has been crystal clear throughout, with not much smell.
Thanks in advance!



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Hi ProMomC.
Thanks for filling out the template.
This is going to be a hard request or suggestions from me. The time has come for you to do nothing. The hardest job of them all requires patience.
No need to change any water.
No need to add anything until the nitrites drops a little. You can do water tests if you want something to do but I can’t see any reason to do much more than wait.
You can add a little ammonia. A drop or two ?

Because you are dealing ( cycling) with a small volume everything you do needs to be a bit more precise . You could put a mark / dot on the back corner of the tank with finger polish that show 45% of the volume.
That’s something to use in a few weeks time when you begin water changes. That would be half way between the top of the water and the top of the substrate minus a little and minus a bit for the ornaments in the water. It’s not that critical but it’s something to do today. In future it will speed up water changes because you all won’t be guessing the volume each time.

You will need a bucket that is ONLY used for water changes . A hypodermic syringe or some way of measuring the water conditioner accurately. Again it’s not that important to use no more than the right amount. But having a way of measuring it fast will safe time and actually a bit of money in the long term .Plus you will not hesitate to do a water change any time day or night if you can smash them out in five minutes. In the beginning water changes seem like a big deal. Eventually they become something to do before breakfast or after midnight.

A point of interest. Actually the people that cycle with fish have an advantage in the short term because they are learning to smash out water changes every day or so.

What to do about the ammonia in your tap water.
Well nothing really that is your zero. Your start point.
If your life style suits house plants you could work with pothos as a plant to use a little of the waste from the water. A few stems of pothos will consume some ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. .While it’s not everyones cup of tea I like the look?

Or it can be considered a working plant that’s not just for looks?

 

You should plan on bypassing the water softener. It removes necessary (for the fish, and probably you) minerals and replaces them with sodium.

Otherwise, you are right on schedule.

Regarding the water conditioner, if you have chloramines in your water be sure to use a dechlorinator that will "remove" both chlorine ans chloramine. Your water company can tell if they use chlorimines or not.

 

Well spotted FishDin , thanks

“Tap water that is softened. (If necessary we can go outside to get water that isn’t softened from the main.)”

You will have to get the replacement tank water from outside to bypass the softener as FishDin wrote.

 

Hi ProMomC.
Thanks for filling out the template.
This is going to be a hard request or suggestions from me. The time has come for you to do nothing. The hardest job of them all requires patience.
No need to change any water.
No need to add anything until the nitrites drops a little. You can do water tests if you want something to do but I can’t see any reason to do much more than wait.
You can add a little ammonia. A drop or two ?

Because you are dealing ( cycling) with a small volume everything you do needs to be a bit more precise . You could put a mark / dot on the back corner of the tank with finger polish that show 45% of the volume.View attachment 855994 That’s something to use in a few weeks time when you begin water changes. That would be half way between the top of the water and the top of the substrate minus a little and minus a bit for the ornaments in the water. It’s not that critical but it’s something to do today. In future it will speed up water changes because you all won’t be guessing the volume each time.

You will need a bucket that is ONLY used for water changes . A hypodermic syringe or some way of measuring the water conditioner accurately. Again it’s not that important to use no more than the right amount. But having a way of measuring it fast will safe time and actually a bit of money in the long term .Plus you will not hesitate to do a water change any time day or night if you can smash them out in five minutes. In the beginning water changes seem like a big deal. Eventually they become something to do before breakfast or after midnight.

A point of interest. Actually the people that cycle with fish have an advantage in the short term because they are learning to smash out water changes every day or so.

What to do about the ammonia in your tap water.
Well nothing really that is your zero. Your start point.
If your life style suits house plants you could work with pothos as a plant to use a little of the waste from the water. A few stems of pothos will consume some ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. .While it’s not everyones cup of tea I like the look? View attachment 855995
Or it can be considered a working plant that’s not just for looks?View attachment 855996

Thanks for the sound, but tough, advice. Patience is a virtue, right? I was just worried things had gotten hopelessly out of whack while we were gone. We’ll definitely keep measuring because every day the little one is going to be hoping for a

After a few 50% water changes with the easy-clean pump even the 8yo is a pro at it (which is why we got that tank kit). We have a dropper, dedicated old/new water buckets, dedicated small pitchers/buckets (that fit on the dresser next to the tank under the easy clean pump). I think we can mark a line on the tanks.

And I realized I forgot to post the photos here, so I’ll do that now!

You should plan on bypassing the water softener. It removes necessary (for the fish, and probably you) minerals and replaces them with sodium.

Otherwise, you are right on schedule.

Regarding the water conditioner, if you have chloramines in your water be sure to use a dechlorinator that will "remove" both chlorine ans chloramine. Your water company can tell if they use chlorimines or not.

Thank you! OK so we need to get a fresh tank water bucket to haul in softened water up. I’m pretty sure the water conditioners I’ve got take care of both chlorine and cloramine but I’ll double check.

Flyfisha said not to do more water changes, but should we try another with the unsoftened water?

 

Stop dosing ammonia. There are a lot of guides out there that says to keep dosing ammonia the moment ammonia reads zero, even when there is so much nitrite. These guides are wrong. Your problem is you are dosing a lot of ammonia, and producing more nitrite than necessary.

Just wait until nitrite drop to zero, before re-dosing ammonia again. Alternatively, since the tanks are very small, you can just do a 100% water change to get rid of all the nitrite, and then re-dose ammonia.

You likely have not killed off your nitrifiers or anything, given the dosing schedule you provided. But, you are going to prolong the cycle by forcing far more nitrite-oxidizing microorganisms to grow than necessary.

 

Stop dosing ammonia. There are a lot of guides out there that says to keep dosing ammonia the moment ammonia reads zero, even when there is so much nitrite. These guides are wrong. Your problem is you are dosing a lot of ammonia, and producing more nitrite than necessary.

Just wait until nitrite drop to zero, before re-dosing ammonia again. Alternatively, since the tanks are very small, you can just do a 100% water change to get rid of all the nitrite, and then re-dose ammonia.

You likely have not killed off your nitrifiers or anything, given the dosing schedule you provided. But, you are going to prolong the cycle by forcing far more nitrite-oxidizing microorganisms to grow than necessary.

Hi Azedenkae,

Thanks for the reassurances! I haven’t dosed ammonia since day 15 which was 6 days ago, though there was apparently a bit coming in through the water changes, and possibly through plant melt we couldn’t clean out.

Anyway, I have more questions, because I’m burying the lead here, which is that today (day 21) the 8yo’s tank is down to <.5ppm Nitrites! And there seem to be some Nitrates, too! (Nitrates showed ~25-50 ppm when I first got the Nitrate test and tested both tanks yesterday.)

So, once Nitrites are down to 0ppm we dose with ammonia to see if the cycle is working making the Ammonia and Nitrite readings are 0ppm the next day, right? If so, the rank is ready for us to get a betta, for that tank, right?

I want to do a partial water change with non-softened water before we bring in a fish, if only to get the minerals up a bit higher. When would be best to do that water change—before or after the levels go down (fingers crossed)?

The 13yo’s tank’s Nitrites are coming down, too, but more slowly, reading ~2ppm, and his has more Nitrates present (clearly 50ppm). Any ideas why there’s the stark difference between the two tanks? Or is it not worth figuring out?

 

So, once Nitrites are down to 0ppm we dose with ammonia to see if the cycle is working making the Ammonia and Nitrite readings are 0ppm the next day, right? If so, the rank is ready for us to get a betta, for that tank, right?

Yep, correct.

I want to do a partial water change with non-softened water before we bring in a fish, if only to get the minerals up a bit higher. When would be best to do that water change—before or after the levels go down (fingers crossed)?

If you are gonna do a water change, might as well do it once the cycle is entirely done. Would also mean you'd remove just that bit extra nitrate too.

The 13yo’s tank’s Nitrites are coming down, too, but more slowly, reading ~2ppm, and his has more Nitrates present (clearly 50ppm). Any ideas why there’s the stark difference between the two tanks? Or is it not worth figuring out?

Not really worth figuring out, could very well be just stochastic differences + slight differences in potentially how much ammonia is consumed by the plants as well, which of course would affect how much nitrite is produced.

The nitrate test kit works by the way, by first converting a small portion of nitrate to nitrite, then reading the nitrite as a proxy. Here, this is a good video on it:

So your 50ppm could also just be because there is 2ppm nitrite present. It could in fact be quite a bit lower once that 2ppm nitrite disappears.

Could also be a situation of differential usage of nitrate by plants.

Either way, not a concern.

With cycling by ammonia-dosing, you only care about one thing: that after dosing a specific target amount of ammonia, both ammonia and nitrite reads zero within a certain amount of time. Usually, the recommendation is 2ppm ammonia dosed, and zero ammonia and nitrite within 24 hours. That's all that should be cared about.

 

Thank you, Azendenkae! I really appreciate the confirmations and information.

 

Hi everyone,

I have some updates and new questions (some of which aren’t specific to fishless cycling, but I didn’t see a subforum that seemed appropriate—please let me know where else I should post):

First off, both tanks got down to 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrites—yay! It took about 36 hours (give it take, one tank is a bit slower) to process a 2ppm dose of ammonia, but I think that’s good enough for one betta’s bio load, right?

So we are getting ready to get the fish! But we have more questions before we bring the bettas to their new homes:

1. The 8yo has a beta bulb that sprouted in a few days but has since gotten fuzzy (see photos). She’s quite attached to all the plants, and only wants to give up on the betta bulb if it could hurt the fish. It looks like posts that mention fuzzy betta bulbs get mixed advice. Can whatever is making the bulb fuzzy hurt the fish (or the tank parameters)?

2. We have an ancient Marimo Moss ball we’ve dubbed “Mossy”—like from years before last year’s zebra mussel catastrophe—that we are thinking about adding to one of the tanks (or maybe splitting it and adding to both!). We’ve been keeping in a vase of still tap water, and more recently sparkling mineral water for more CO2 and minerals, that we clean occasionally with detergent and/or baking soda. Mossy is not in the best shape, but I hear these things can bounce back. Is it safe to add Mossy to a betta tank? Should I do anything other than rinse it really well in conditioned water?

3. Is the Betta H2O conditioner I got a good long-term conditioner, or should I get something like Seachum Prime? Both detoxify ammonia and nitrites—is that good for a cycled tank (at least our small ones that may need help keeping parameters stable)?

Thanks in advance!

 

I'll help where I feel comfortable enough to help.

First off, both tanks got down to 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrites—yay! It took about 36 hours (give it take, one tank is a bit slower) to process a 2ppm dose of ammonia, but I think that’s good enough for one betta’s bio load, right?

So 2ppm ammonia/36 hours, i.e. approx. 1.33ppm ammonia every day. That *should* be enough, but don't forget that the smaller the tank size, the higher concentration of ammonia produced from the same amount of feeding, and 2.5gal is pretty small.

1. The 8yo has a beta bulb that sprouted in a few days but has since gotten fuzzy (see photos). She’s quite attached to all the plants, and only wants to give up on the betta bulb if it could hurt the fish. It looks like posts that mention fuzzy betta bulbs get mixed advice. Can whatever is making the bulb fuzzy hurt the fish (or the tank parameters)?

Hurt the fish directly, most likely not. Cause issues with tank parameters, potentially. If it causes the plant to die and decompose rapidly, you could potentially get an ammonia spike.

3. Is the Betta H2O conditioner I got a good long-term conditioner, or should I get something like Seachum Prime? Both detoxify ammonia and nitrites—is that good for a cycled tank (at least our small ones that may need help keeping parameters stable)?

Most conditioners honestly work just as well as the next, your Betta H2O conditioner should be fine.

There is evidence to suggest none of these conditioners can detoxify ammonia or nitrite, though I have not seen anything super concrete. So with that said, even if they detoxify ammonia/nitrite, there are no issues when it comes to the cycle - whatever the case may be, reality is the ammonia/nitrite in the tank is available to be used by the nitrifiers, regardless of the conditioner's ability (or lack thereof) to detoxify ammonia/nitrite.

 

A couple of comments on water conditioners.

You MUST always have some spare in the house.

They all do the same job, but it’s likely the amount required is very different and potentially confusing. Prime is very concentrated and requires just a few drops. I suggest you buy Prime and put the other brand in storage or toss it.

The moss ball.
If it’s ever been cleaned with detergent it’s never going to be safe to go in a fish tank . Don’t risk doing so. Soaps kill fish.

Final word on conditioner.
A double dose is an overdose in warm weather.
A dose of five times the recommended dose is an overdose at any time.
It’s a chemical and should be treated with respect just like any chemical. Read the instructions and make sure ether you always add the conditioner or your children learn the importance of what they are doing. It will potentially kill your fish or bacteria if not used correctly.

Personally I toss in a measuring hypodermic syringe into any bucket that is conditioned water. This way I know at a glance which buckets are ready to be used. It’s a routine to learn.

 

I'll help where I feel comfortable enough to help.

So 2ppm ammonia/36 hours, i.e. approx. 1.33ppm ammonia every day. That *should* be enough, but don't forget that the smaller the tank size, the higher concentration of ammonia produced from the same amount of feeding, and 2.5gal is pretty small.

OK, thank youso much for that breakdown. I figured that we’ll have to stay on top of the parameters and water changes more than if we were able to get bigger tanks.

Hurt the fish directly, most likely not. Cause issues with tank parameters, potentially. If it causes the plant to die and decompose rapidly, you could potentially get an ammonia spike.

Right, that should make sense to her—thank you!

Most conditioners honestly work just as well as the next, your Betta H2O conditioner should be fine.

There is evidence to suggest none of these conditioners can detoxify ammonia or nitrite, though I have not seen anything super concrete. So with that said, even if they detoxify ammonia/nitrite, there are no issues when it comes to the cycle - whatever the case may be, reality is the ammonia/nitrite in the tank is available to be used by the nitrifiers, regardless of the conditioner's ability (or lack thereof) to detoxify ammonia/nitrite.

Right! Now that you mention that the ammonia/nitrites that are “neutralized” are still available to the BB, I remember hearing that somewhere else. Thank you for the reminder/confirmation. Very good to know there’s some doubt about how effective conditioners are at taking care of ammonia/nitrates, too—I had not heard that elsewhere.

A couple of comments on water conditioners.

You MUST always have some spare in the house.

Thank you so much—I did not think about that; we’ll pick up an extra bottle.

They all do the same job, but it’s likely the amount required is very different and potentially confusing. Prime is very concentrated and requires just a few drops. I suggest you buy Prime and put the other brand in storage or toss it.

The moss ball.
If it’s ever been cleaned with detergent it’s never going to be safe to go in a fish tank . Don’t risk doing so. Soaps kill fish.

OK, I was afraid of that. I really wanted to get moss balls or Java moss in their tanks as a bit of extra help with stabilizing the parameters (both are supposed to do that, right, even though the moss balls are really algae?). I can’t find them anywhere locally or at a place online I feel I can trust (and can afford right now). Something to post about in the freshwater plants subforum in the future, though

Final word on conditioner.
A double dose is an overdose in warm weather.
A dose of five times the recommended dose is an overdose at any time.
It’s a chemical and should be treated with respect just like any chemical. Read the instructions and make sure ether you always add the conditioner or your children learn the importance of what they are doing. It will potentially kill your fish or bacteria if not used correctly.

oh my—I had no idea overdosing was that much of danger, or that it was tied to water temperature. I will definitely impress upon them the need to be precise with the dosing. They are both good at doing the API liquid tests now, so I think they will get it. I’m picking up a measuring bucket to dedicate to the tanks today, so there’s no guesswork in volume for dosing the condition. Thank you!

Personally I toss in a measuring hypodermic syringe into any bucket that is conditioned water. This way I know at a glance which buckets are ready to be used. It’s a routine to learn.

That is a great tip—thank you! I was just reading a few “did I kill my tank by forgetting to add conditioner?” posts, which were terrifying! I don’t know if we have space to keep more than a gallon of pre-conditioned water around for top offs and emergencies, but we will figure out a routine with checks like the syringe built in. I wonder if we can find something non-toxic that can clip to the bucket or gallon container somehow and be dropped in after condition is added and taken out once the conditioned water is emptied. Hmmm…

 

Good news so far! Both tanks got cycled (about a day apart) so we got two beautiful bettas (about a day apart) this past weekend. The fish seem happy, love the plants and hiding places (especially behind the pre-filter baffle or heater lol) and we are all totally smitten (and I’m addicted to trying to capture their glory in photographs).

We’ve been testing daily and the cycle seems stable in both tanks, though we are being super careful not to over feed and haven’t tried a messy food like bloodworms yet, so we’ll keep a close eye on the parameters daily until we’re through a couple weeks of feeding and water changes.

Thanks for all of your help getting us this far!

Meet Orion, the 8yo’s blue double tail (halfmoon?) betta and Thoth, the 13yo’s green mustard gas (labeled “Paradise”) delta (?) tail:

 

Good news so far! Both tanks got cycled (about a day apart) so we got two beautiful bettas (about a day apart) this past weekend. The fish seem happy, love the plants and hiding places (especially behind the pre-filter baffle or heater lol) and we are all totally smitten (and I’m addicted to trying to capture their glory in photographs).

We’ve been testing daily and the cycle seems stable in both tanks, though we are being super careful not to over feed and haven’t tried a messy food like bloodworms yet, so we’ll keep a close eye on the parameters daily until we’re through a couple weeks of feeding and water changes.

Thanks for all of your help getting us this far!

Meet Orion, the 8yo’s blue double tail (halfmoon?) betta and Thoth, the 13yo’s green mustard gas (labeled “Paradise”) delta (?) tail:

Yay! Hope the kids enjoy caring for the bettas.

 

Yay! Hope the kids enjoy caring for the bettas.

The kids are loving feeding them and interacting with them. Thoth, the bigger one, started building a bubble nest this morning.