No KH and high pH

I have a 140L tank (minus substrate, driftwood etc), with a bunch of different fish including some Blue Rams. A while back I discovered my pH had dropped off the bottom of my API test chart. It was 6.0 (though could have been lower). I went to our fish store, and that's when I learn about KH (I've since read up a bunch more). She tested my water and found I had none. She sold me Nutrafin KH Booster, and recommended I slowly bring my KH up to about 2degrees for my Rams.

After two doses (and at least 3 days between doses) my pH is up to 7.3 (maybe slightly higher), but I'm still not getting any KH reading (the water goes yellow with the first drop of solution). I've added a 3rd dose, but I'm worried what the pH is going to be tomorrow (8+?), and what happens if I still don't have a KH reading.

What's more, say I can get my KH up to 2degrees, how can I get a pH below 7 (which I understand my Rams would prefer). I don't really have anywhere to go, in terms of decreasing my KH. And surely if I add any pH down products, peat moss, etc., it would only work after it killed the KH buffer? So I'd be back where I started.

Thanks heaps.

 

I recommend using crushed coral as a KH buffer. You will also need an acid buffer to keep your PH from rising as you increase your KH. This can be done with Peat, Indian Almond leaves, Oak leaves, Beech leaves. if you are collecting oak or beech leaves, make sure that they are from an area you know has not been treated with pesticides and is well away from any roads(pollutants).

 

I recommend using crushed coral as a KH buffer. You will also need an acid buffer to keep your PH from rising as you increase your KH. This can be done with Peat, Indian Almond leaves, Oak leaves, Beech leaves. if you are collecting oak or beech leaves, make sure that they are from an area you know has not been treated with pesticides and is well away from any roads(pollutants).

Sorry Sarcasm, but I don't totally agree. I DO agree with using crushed coral to buffer the pH, but I think the OP would be better off doing a water change, maybe even a few small ones, to remove the KH buffer that has been used. It sounds to me more like a pH buffer than a KH buffer. This will bring the pH down without using an acid (tannic acid) like peat etc, which may put this tank into a tail spin.

I hope you agree?

 

Partially. A water change will help reset the tank, but then your faced with the original problem of having the low KH. Adding the crushed coral will increase both the KH and PH, which is what he doesn't want to do. The addition of humic acid, will maintain the PH while the KH is being increased.

edit: I may as well elaborate on this, since I have been working a lot lately with leaf litter, PH, and KH. Peat moss will release a great deal of Tannic acid over a long time, while releasing humic acid. Besides that fact that harvesting it is not sustainable, this would create a fast initial drop, which would be dulled by the coral. I wouldn't recommend this. Local leafs like Oak and Beech release a smaller amount of tanins, which drops off quickly. After which the humic acid continues to be released as the leaves decompose. This provides a more controlled buffer of the acid, thereby allowing him to keep his PH down while increasing his KH and not having the bouncing effect that may happen with peat or to a lesser extent almond leaves.

 

Partially. A water change will help reset the tank, but then your faced with the original problem of having the low KH. Adding the crushed coral will increase both the KH and PH, which is what he doesn't want to do. The addition of humic acid, will maintain the PH while the KH is being increased.

Yes, but if the tank's pH was at 6.0 or below at the start of using the KH buffer, the OP does not wish for it to be that low, so it does need to naturally increase along with the increasing KH. The OP may find that the increase in KH and pH the crushed coral provides, gives them a reasonable amount of KH without increasing the pH too much.

I just think putting too many things into play all at once could be potentially dangerous.

 

Yes, but if the tank's pH was at 6.0 or below at the start of using the KH buffer, the OP does not wish for it to be that low, so it does need to naturally increase along with the increasing KH. The OP may find that the increase in KH and pH the crushed coral provides, gives them a reasonable amount of KH without increasing the pH too much.

I just think putting too many things into play all at once could be potentially dangerous.

I would recommend forgoing the water change and just adding the crushed coral slowly over a week. It is a wonder that the fish didn't go into shock from the increase, dropping it back down below 6.0 and then bringing it back up will cause enormous stress.

 

I would recommend forgoing the water change and just adding the crushed coral slowly over a week. It is a wonder that the fish didn't go into shock from the increase, dropping it back down below 6.0 and then bringing it back up will cause enormous stress.

Yep, I agree. Too much, or a sudden drop in pH is what I wanted to prevent which is why I suggested a few small water changes, which would let the fish acclimate to the pH, but yes... leaving the pH right where it is and just adding crushed coral is something I can agree with. When water changes are done, I would still recommend them to be small to avoid too large of a drop in pH at that time should one occur. So yes, waiting a week for the crushed coral to start working before doing anything else sounds like an excellent idea.

Thanks for bearing with us dgre057!!

 

I looked into the Nutrifin KH booster the store sold you. It is a potassium carbonate product and not a potassium hydroxide product which is what I was concerned it was. Potassium hydroxide is what a lot of pH UP products are and it only affects the pH. Potassium carbonate is a product that is suppose to be able to increase the KH (as your store lady told you) and as a result, also pH.

I'm not sure why you obtained the results you did when you dosed this product. I don't like the large increase in pH you had without gaining any KH. I don't have any experience using potassium carbonate and I've read very little feed back from anybody using this product. The results you obtained doesn't make me want to suggest to others to use it, that is for sure.

In general, I try to avoid adding powdered substances to aquarium water for a few reasons. First and foremost, they are fast to react which can cause major stress on the fish. Secondly, it is generally harder to predict the final outcome of a dose. You expect x but you get z. Thirdly, the result you achieve often doesn't last very long and then fish are again susceptible to a sudden drop (or increase) when the product has exhausted it's ability to perform. And last but not least, it becomes a bit of a trial and error on how much product is required to maintain a balance for the amount of water replaced during water changes which also leaves fish open to more potential for ups and downs in the water parameters.

Anyways, I really just wanted to let you know the pet store lady wasn't giving you incorrect information, but as you know, I still wouldn't recommend dosing the aquarium with it.

 

Thanks for all the time and considerations guys, I appreciate it.

I'm still a little confused about how it all works. Is it possible to have KH buffer AND acid (free H+ ions) in a stable tank? Or are you constantly having to release acid and top up KH? The KH binds the H+ ions right? It sort of seems like you're either going to have "free" KH and no H+, or you're going to have H+ and no KH left.

The Nutrafin KH Booster is a liquid. I've put a bit less in that the specifications to try raise it slower...when I get home tonight and can test it again I might have a better idea where things are at.

 

Do you have live plants in the tank? If you do what CO2 and nutrients are you providing? You may have added the Potassium Carbonate but the live plants used the potassium as a nutrient and the carbonate as a carbon source.

 

I think we speak two different languages, so I'm hoping Sarcasm Included follows what you are asking.

If you are asking if it's possible to have acidic pH, (under 7ppm) and maintain a stable tank, the answer is yes but you need to have enough calcium and magnesium bicarbonates (KH) to buffer the tank so that as acids are release, there is enough KH to neutralize the acid so that your KH isn't immediately affected to the point of not being able to sustain a stable pH. These bicarbonates do have to be replenished, typically with water changes but in your case with crushed coral, potassium carbonate, or other source of a calcium or magnesium bicarbonate.

I don't know how I did at answering you, but I tried.

It will be good to see an update.

 

Do you have live plants in the tank? If you do what CO2 and nutrients are you providing? You may have added the Potassium Carbonate but the live plants used the potassium as a nutrient and the carbonate as a carbon source.

This is an excellent point. Good catch!!

dgreO57, could you also tell us what the GH/KH of your source water is before it gets to the fish tank?

 

OK, so I've now got a KH of 2° degrees (which I think is around 30/35 ppm) and a pH of 7.5.

The source water is rain water, and has no KH, but it's reading pretty acidic at the moment. I'm going to have to check that out, for other reasons...but might explain how my tank got that low in the first place. I hadn't checked it in ages, as it had always been 7 before.

I do have quite a lot of live plants. I haven't added CO2, but do dose with Seachem Flourish once a week. Does that help?

What I was asking earlier is, is it possible to maintain (stable) acidic pH (say 6.5), and a KH of 2 or 3°? Or will the KH in the water constantly be neutralising the acid, thereby creating a higher pH and lower KH? I understand that if I have a KH buffer then adding acid to the water won't swing the pH as the KH will neutralise it. But that uses up the buffer, right? I feel like I'm missing something in there More reading perhaps.

 

And I guess, a more immediately question is, does anyone know how sensitive my blue rams are going to be to the current pH? Ignoring the change in pH that's occurred and that I can't do anything about now (6.0-6.6 a few weeks ago, 6.6-7.5 over the last week or so), how worried do I need to be about leaving it where it is at for a while.

Obviously, that's in addition to achieving a more long term solution of a stable, slightly acidic water.

 

Ahh some sense is made there.
I have a 300g pond that receives similar rain to yourself, slightly acidic, 0KH, and my tap water has little buffering.
It is possible to have a KH of 2-3 with a pH of 6.8ish.
For starters
1) your live plants, you need to be adding some Flourish Excel which is a carbon based substitution of CO2. Without CO2 or in cases of low CO2 the plants will use the KH as it's carbon source and deplete it.
2) you need aongterm solution to your KH, crushed coral, small quantity of Texas Holey Rock, or chemical.

Do both slowly in combination and you should notice a rise in your KH and pH shouldn't be affected. If you notice your pH rise do a water change and it will bring it down. They may be a slight bounce but it will evenitself out.

Also be mindful that a pH below 6.0 may have lead to a problem with your tanks cycle. It may be worth just ensuring that your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are ok as well during this time

 

OK, so I've now got a KH of 2° degrees (which I think is around 30/35 ppm) and a pH of 7.5.

The source water is rain water, and has no KH, but it's reading pretty acidic at the moment. I'm going to have to check that out, for other reasons...but might explain how my tank got that low in the first place. I hadn't checked it in ages, as it had always been 7 before.

I do have quite a lot of live plants. I haven't added CO2, but do dose with Seachem Flourish once a week. Does that help?

What I was asking earlier is, is it possible to maintain (stable) acidic pH (say 6.5), and a KH of 2 or 3°? Or will the KH in the water constantly be neutralising the acid, thereby creating a higher pH and lower KH? I understand that if I have a KH buffer then adding acid to the water won't swing the pH as the KH will neutralise it. But that uses up the buffer, right? I feel like I'm missing something in there More reading perhaps.

As the KH neutralizes acids it won't increase pH and lower KH. If acids are lowering KH, you should also see pH lower as well because as KH gets used it has less ability to neutralize the acids, so then the acids have more affect on pH.

With 0 KH in your source water, pH cannot be stable. If the source water has a starting pH of 7, the moment any type of acid comes into contact with it, the pH will drop. Fish respirations which is a fairly minor source of CO2 would be enough to start affecting the pH. Your plants need for carbon would consume the little although unmeasurable amount of KH you might have. This all means pH has no place to go but down.

Here is another option that hasn't been mentioned to treat this. You are currently using rain water. Is your household tap water safe for drinking purposes? If so, You could do a KH test on that water to see where it is at, and providing it has KH, you could start using some of that water along with your rain water, to make a blended water that will suit your needs without having to use other products.

To address the question about the rams, I had wild blue rams for several years. I have a planted tank and I use CO2 which lowered the natural pH of my tank to between 6.6ppm and 6.8ppm. At one point, my CO2 went on the fritz and of course, my pH increase back to it's natural state of 7.6 - 7.8. It was a couple of weeks or more before I could get what I needed to get the CO2 working again, but it took several hours for the tank to gas off the CO2 and increase pH, and I slowly increased CO2 when I got the unit working again. So, I think your rams will do ok, as long as we can keep changes from happening too quickly.

 

Also be mindful that a pH below 6.0 may have lead to a problem with your tanks cycle. It may be worth just ensuring that your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are ok as well during this time

This is important. Ammonia becomes more toxic as pH increases. Please do check the levels as suggested.

 

You can use Crushed coral and peat/almond leaves/oak/maple/beech leaves to reduce ph and maintain KH. KH will slowly deteriorate over time, but it naturally does that anyway, just refresh it when you do water changes and your fine. The trick is finding balance. Plants have essentially a triangle system that compose of nutrients, light, and CO2. If you increase one all the rest need to be increased to maintain the balance. You probably have plenty of light and the addition of the fertilizer is increasing the demand of CO2 from the plants. This is what is causing the stripping of carbon from your system.

My first suggestion would be to add small amounts of crushed coral and begin injecting CO2, or be very diligent with DIY CO2. You could also use Excel to increase your carbon, but it will not bring down your PH, like injecting CO2 will.

My second suggestion is to get some Indian almond leaves and crush up a single leaf. You can put it in the filter or you can spread it on the ground, fish love leaf litter. It will tan up your water, but your rams won't mind a bit and it will eventually clear up. In the fall you can collect local leaves, oak and beech are the best and do the litter as well, but requires more. Add small amounts of crushed coral or oyster to maintain the KH, it will raise your PH slightly while it dissolves, but it will stabilize quickly.

You can add things like Texas holey rock or dead coral to the tank, but you can not regulate it as easily. The more acidic the tank, the faster that these items dissolve. As it dissolves into the water column it will increase the KH and PH, so I really recommend using crushed coral.

Blackwater extract can be used to lower PH, but it is tannic acid and lowers PH by reducing KH.

Hopefully, I didn't confuse you more as I need more coffee. lol