New to Angelfish and bad behavior

Ok here's what we got going on in the new Angel Tank:

1) Bought 4 angels tankmates, same pet store. 1-vail, 1-marble, 2-silver stripe
2) Within 48hrs we thought a "pair" had formed, as 1-silver and 1-marble had significant fin damage and cowared in the corner
3) We moved the damaged ones to a hospital 10gal tank to heal (they are, very nicely)
4) We also noticed some minor fin damage to the remaining silver still in with the vail.
5) FACT: the vail is the ONLY angel without ANY damage

Is it as obvious as it seems?
Could the (only) undamaged vail angel be the aggressor and be rehomed?
And then rejoin the remaining three for peace in the valley??

 

I doubt it is aggression (unless you actually see them fight)
Look into water quality. Ammonia can damage fins (and gills).

 

Seeing as one has no damage, and two were damaged and cowering in a corner, it probably is aggression. Sounds like two are trying to pair up, and may have begun in the shop. You could rehome the main aggressor, but you still might get pair formation among the other 3.

How big is the tank?

 

Its a 36gallon bowfront, and yes we know they will outgrow it. We plan to rehome two and keep two when the time comes. As it is, they are barely quarter sized. Which is strange because no visible breeding tubes are protruding on any of them (believe me we have looked intently with magnification lol) Also I've read in many places that "breeding behaviors" don't start in such young angels.

Think we will go ahead and remove the aggressor, throw the remaining three back together (once healed) and see if another "pairing" takes place.

Dang, why can I watch over 100 youtube videos of 4,6, 10 angels together in a semi-crowded tank?? And they say, for years, with NO aggression? Is it a total crapshoot to get all males or all females that can coexist peacefully????

 

How big is a quarter again ? (I'm English).

Angels naturally live in groups, pair off to breed, then rejoin the group. But you need a big tank for this, usually.

I assumed yours were pairing but pecking order aggression starts at a younger age.

 

How big is a quarter again ? (I'm English).

Angels naturally live in groups, pair off to breed, then rejoin the group. But you need a big tank for this, usually.

I assumed yours were pairing but pecking order aggression starts at a younger age.

An angel is about a "quarter" size at about 4 months.
Stores seldom sells breeding age angels (more than 8 months)
Two days into a new tank, angels are still "shocked" and don't care who's the boss.
A picture of the "damaged" fins will probably help.

 

An angel is about a "quarter" size at about 4 months.
Stores seldom sells breeding age angels (more than 8 months)
Two days into a new tank, angels are still "shocked" and don't care who's the boss.
A picture of the "damaged" fins will probably help.

You can't make sweeping all-inclusive statements like that. Whether they're 'shocked' or not depends on whether they were shocked going into the tank. If the water parameters are the same they can be introduced to a tank totally unshocked. They can also be aggressive still in the bag. They can even do the whole transition from shop to tank with no stress whatsoever. It all depends on how much stress they've been under, which depends on water, various aspects of the journey, the initial health of the fish, and also the individual fish themselves.

Ive checked with Axelrod. Well fed Angel fry are normally quarter sized at 4-5 weeks old.

 

Are you not seeing the aggressive behavior? And in a tank that size, as you already know, only a pair would be able to live together. More than likely. It would be better to just keep a single. In an all female tank, they still may lay eggs, and become territorial toward each other. All male tanks will generally work better. But territories can still become an issue.

But without seeing the aggressive behavior, the fin problem may not be because of that.

 

On the other hand you might not see it unless you're watching the tank continuously from early morning to last thing at night, with no coffee or tea breaks. Alison

 

I have quite a few years of breeding and keeping angels. If one is picking on another, it is generally not going to stop. They are relentless. I am sure there are the exceptions though.

 

Is there something like bad behaviour of a fish? Or is this always due to us humans doing / planning something wrong. That's what I think.

Lots of fish show aggression when not kept in the right conditions.
Too small tank, too small shoal, wrong tankmates, lack of hiding places, aso.
Some fish shouldn't therefor be kept in a too small tank even if they are still small. Some species simply need bigger tanks from the start cause of their natural behaviour, to be sure they don't get stunted, aso.
As mentioned above angels should be kept in (social) groups and e able to pair off. If you can't provide that, don't keep angels and think of Keyholes or another friendly (dwarf)cichlid.

I love Angels but don't keep them cause my tanks are too small to provide the right environment.

 

Aggression is natural. In nature cichlids will compete with each other aggressively for mates, and defend their feeding or breeding territories, and obviously young families. The difference is, in most tanks fish are physically unable to leave a territory so the aggression becomes unnaturally prolonged and intense (fish don't go easy because another fish cannot swim away, they see it as a refusal to swim away, which they interpret as non-submission).

 

I don't know who's Axelrod and what could possibly be fed to angel fry to reach a quarter at 4 weeks. Does it mean it is a nickel at 3 weeks and a dime at 2 weeks?

What is wrong with checking the water quality?

If one angel is so aggressive, was it in a tank by itself at the store?

I bred and sold angelfish juvies to a LFS. I went back after few days to see if they want more. My fish looked like mono fish after few days in his tank. I did not sell him anymore.

 

I don't know who's Axelrod and what could possibly be fed to angel fry to reach a quarter at 4 weeks. Does it mean it is a nickel at 3 weeks and a dime at 2 weeks?

What is wrong with checking the water quality?

If one angel is so aggressive, was it in a tank by itself at the store?

I bred and sold angelfish juvies to a LFS. I went back after few days to see if they want more. My fish looked like mono fish after few days in his tank. I did not sell him anymore.

I still don't know how big a quarter is (...anyone?). Commercial breeders raise fry in very warm water, with high protein, high fat foods, and lots of large water changes. Growth is rapid to saleable size.

There's never anything wrong with checking water parameters.

 

A quarter is about an inch in diameter. hampalong

 

Quarters are about an inch (2.54 cm) across or a little over, nickels are somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 an inch (1.27-1.9 cm), and dimes are less or close to a 1/2 inch (1.27 cm) across.

 

Herbert A Axlerod is in my opinion the grandfather of modern fishkeeping. He is the one that is responsible for most of the South American and amazon type fish that we keep today.. He discovered them and improrted them and spent his life learning and teaching others and continuously discovering more varieties. Alison

 

I've raised them to about dime size in a month, quarter size in two, so quarter in one should be possible for long established fish farms...


Dr. Herbert R Axelrod...

https://vault.si.com/vault/1965/05/03/the-strange-fish-and-stranger-times-of-dr-herbert-r-axelrod

 

I've raised them to about dime size in a month, quarter size in two, so quarter in one should be possible for long established fish farms...


Dr. Herbert R Axelrod...

https://vault.si.com/vault/1965/05/03/the-strange-fish-and-stranger-times-of-dr-herbert-r-axelrod

Woops sorry wrong middle initial. Thanks for the link. Alison

 

I've raised them to about dime size in a month, quarter size in two, so quarter in one should be possible for long established fish farms...


Dr. Herbert R Axelrod...

https://vault.si.com/vault/1965/05/03/the-strange-fish-and-stranger-times-of-dr-herbert-r-axelrod

Awesome read. He was always my hero. Really enjoyed the article. Alison

 

Awesome read. He was always my hero. Really enjoyed the article. Alison

An impressive collection of achievements, and that's just up to 1965!! TFH continued to publish many great fish books and arguably the best tropical fish magazine in the world for decades... and still going strong...

 

Wow, thanks folks!! So much intel
Water has PH of 6.5, nites are both in balance with 0.2ppm ammonia.
I'll go snap some pics of: the damaged fins, the perp, and the tanks.
We have decided to 1) rehome the Vail perpetrator 2) slowly experiment with grouping the remaining 3 to choose the 2 we'll keep. Need time for healing so no fish is compromised and picked on. "Level the playing field"
We did drop in 4 little corys and they are already thriving!
Maybe it'll be a 36 gal "Cory tank" with an "Oh, by the way, there's a couple little angels in there somewhere" hahaha

 

When you say "nites are both in balance" what do you mean? What are the numbers? With ammonia of 0.2 you might have nitrites aswell? These will be part of the problem.

 

I still don't know how big a quarter is (...anyone?). Commercial breeders raise fry in very warm water, with high protein, high fat foods, and lots of large water changes. Growth is rapid to saleable size.

There's never anything wrong with checking water parameters.

I know you got a measurement now but a quarter is the size of a 10p.

 

The 10 gallon "Hospital tank" These are the two that were damaged. (when we weren't watching apparently) Notice the tail fins, but NOT the dorsal, or analfins got chewed up. And both their ventral fins are much shorter than when they first came home.



No flash pic, but the two "victims" are getting along fine and are healing rapidly



The two that remain in the big tank. Had to use the flash to show detail. The Vail on the left is the aggressive dude. Absolutely pristine fins and keeps the other in the corner. Who btw has some minor tail fin tears, and seems afraid to eat at feeding time.



Here's the 36 gallon bowfront in our bedroom. Tried to place a lot of silk plants and deco for hiding/resting as necessary.



Side view of density of plants

 

The 10 gallon "Hospital tank" These are the two that were damaged. (when we weren't watching apparently) Notice the tail fins, but NOT the dorsal, or analfins got chewed up. And both their ventral fins are much shorter than when they first came home.

This does look more like water quality than aggression. If it was the other Angel/s the fins would be split rather than evenly shortened...

 

See, the only one with no fin damage, and the one who rules with iron fist...ya, he's going find a new home

Wow, really? There are splits in marbles tail, and the silver that's in there with the vail now. Wonder why the water could have done such significant damage to some but not all?

 

Wow, really? There are splits in marbles tail, and the silver that's in there with the vail now. Wonder why the water could have done such significant damage to some but not all?

Yes, on second thoughts, prolonged attack could explain the even shortening... but it's not being helped by the water quality which you need to get on top of. Please also see post #23.

 

Aren't these fin "torn" as from aggression?

NO3 and NO2 both test at 0. And I meant 0.02ppm ammonia. PH is 6.5. KH is 77, and GH is 58. Based on these results, I thought we were in good shape to add fish.

I put on a water polisher with 8oz of fresh charcoal loaded into the cylinder and have had it running for about 2 hours. Did an 8 gallon water change, used some API stress coat, and added 1/2oz of live bacteria. see this link
Are you familiar with this product?

 

Is this a brand new tank?

 

Yep. I filled up a dirty aquarium I found in a dumpster with the garden hose, threw in some rocks from a local toxic waste site, threw in a bunch of expensive tropical fish, and crossed my fingers...AHHHHH LOL

This hobby has costs thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours of research, joining a forum, traveling hundreds of miles to check available fish and materials and get advice from "professionals" everywhere I can. My neighbor has a successful pond and commercial aquarium business and has gifted us a ton of brand new, high end equipment, and advice. ..At the end of the day, it seems that literally everyone has as many stories of failure as successes. But there's the catch-all canned response that nearly everyone in the game uses, "new tank syndrome", "it's the water" aka "It's all your fault,"
Any question. No matter how unrelated, as soon as you "admit" you are relatively new to the hobby, it's assumed that you know nothing about water conditions. I provided the readings of my water parameters in hopes that we could get past it and return to the original question about behavior.

Thanks to hampalong you gave me the only useful information.

Just admit it people...you have had less-than-perfect results. Let me know about those. "It happened to me too once, here's what I found, here's what worked for me", etc
A little more sympathy and a lot less shaming would be helpful in a "fish forum"

I am a musician. I have played guitar and been a front man in countless bands for almost 30 years. If this were a guitar player forum, I would do everything I could to be encouraging to a new player. I don't think I'd be pounding that person saying that they're; using the wrong guitar strings, or pointing out that his first guitar should have been a Martin, or answer every question with, "is your guitar in tune"
-just sayin'
Wish me luck, because luck is a variable in fish behavior and personality the no one can control.

 

I'm familiar with the Fritzyme but never used it.

Now that I've realised that you didn't actually add rocks from a toxic waste dump... aggression is probably a factor, but that uniform shortening of the caudal fins is a pretty normal, if severe, sign of bad water (also bad aggression) so we can't really rule either out, since it's a new tank. It seems though that it has cycled, at least enough to rule out water as the sole cause (thought I'd cracked it for a moment with the toxic rocks).

Without re-reading the whole thread, I was under the impression that we were all trying to help... And I can't tell much from that last picture - it's not the best backdrop to see clearly.

What does your neighbour think?

 

I hope you stay with us as we are all trying to help and no one is putting you down. Unfortunatly fish keeping to me is not an exact science and is some trial and error. And we do all have our own opinions based on what works for us in our own tanks and information we learn and share from others as well. Its a great hobby that you will really enjoy. Alison

 

To the OP you had several people here trying to help, but you failed to answer their questions. You also got the exact same advice from more than one person.

You seem to have known the problem yourself before you even posted this.

 

Sorry for the rant.
My neighbor JI'm (that owns/operates a commercial aquarium bsns) is pretty laid back in his advice. He concedes that after the tank, and the water, adding fish of any species, size, or relative age, IS a roll of the dice despite all your research. He says he frequently has had to add and remove hundreds of fish to get winning combinations to meet client's demands. He's seen the most aggressive species coexist peacefully with the most frail, and vice versa. And yet, at the end of the day he's the first to euthanize (I'm not a fan) any fish that "didn't work out" for whatever reason.

La La and I had that dwarf gourami suffering and we read somewhere about peeling a cooked pea and feeding it to him in the case of possible digestive blockage affecting his swim bladder. JI'm said, kill it and go buy a new one. We are darn proud to say that gourami has made a near complete recovery and is healthy and happy today.

So maybe I'm making more of this "livestock" than just being fancy fish. I've seen "Finding Nemo" one too many times I guess and get too emotionally involved. LOL

 

He was damaged and sick. Floating and could barely swim. SUCCESS!!

 

He was damaged and sick. Floating and could barely swim. SUCCESS!!

That's the most blue DG I have ever seen. Glad you managed to save him.

 

He's a cobalt blue DG.

 

He is stunning. Love that color. Alison

 

I am a musician. I have played guitar and been a front man in countless bands for almost 30 years. If this were a guitar player forum, I would do everything I could to be encouraging to a new player. I don't think I'd be pounding that person saying that they're; using the wrong guitar strings, or pointing out that his first guitar should have been a Martin, or answer every question with, "is your guitar in tune"

Strat vs Les Paul?

Just as with music, the longer you're at this fish thing & the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. I'm sure you've seen it on guitar forums; 12 month experts. Works the same with fish. You've also got folks who do it as a business, who consider fish product, and would toss one just as quick as you'd toss a noisy cable. He swaps out fish, you swap out pedals, looking for that perfect combination, which in both cases is rarely found. On both type of forums you'll have a range of experiences, from the rookie who can't figure out a 1/4" jack to the old timer who hot rods tube amps. Hampalong would be your tube wiz, while it is potentially possible to get angels to quarter size in 5 weeks, 12-16 is what is usually seen, especially from a commercial supplier such as a shop, your fish pal & so on.

I'd say nipping & aggression on the battered angels. Tails are the first to get hit, next target is ventrals. Daily water changes on the abused ones for a week, I've had angels missing half their fins recover, pairing angels can be brutal, some come out looking better than they started. I'd also say Strat, hhs, with 10's.

Stick around, this is a pretty cool place, wide range of experiences, as well as personalities.