New tank not cycling with seeded media

I’m having trouble. I have a cycled 75 gallon tank. It has an FX4 and a Fluval 407 on it. It’s been running a year . I got a 60 breeder and put a fluval 110 HOB on it and a fluval 307. I took about 3 cups of ceramic rings from my 75 gallon along with filter floss and put it into my new tank filters. It’s been since June 23 and it’s still not cycled. I’ve been using prime and seachem stability everyday and my aunt also gave me a mason jar of her gravel and a big sponge from one of her filters from her cycled tank a few days ago. My tank is still showing 1ppm ammonia. Zero nitrites and zero nitrates. I was told it would be a pretty near instant cycle but it’s been since June 23. I have 4 polar blue parrots and a krib in the tank. Should i change the water ? Should I take the 407 off the 75 and swap it with the 307 on the 60 ? I just don’t know. Thank you in advance

 

If you're seeing ammonia then I would do a water change. How are the fish doing?

 

It sounds like you have plenty of BB seeded media. I wouldn't mess with the filters... hands off as long as they are flowing. Monitor ammonia and nitrites every day or 2 and perform WC as needed. Feeding sparingly during this period will also help. The tank will cycle.

With all the seeded media you have I question why you'd need Seachem stability. I've never used the stuff though so I'll look to others for advice regarding this.

 

It may just be a mini cycle and definitely wont last as long as a regular cycle. Keep changing water and one day it will just be done. If you have the Stability use it up. It wont hurt anything for sure. Im just on the IDK how much boat with bottle bac.

 

I’m having trouble. I have a cycled 75 gallon tank. It has an FX4 and a Fluval 407 on it. It’s been running a year . I got a 60 breeder and put a fluval 110 HOB on it and a fluval 307. I took about 3 cups of ceramic rings from my 75 gallon along with filter floss and put it into my new tank filters. It’s been since June 23 and it’s still not cycled. I’ve been using prime and seachem stability everyday and my aunt also gave me a mason jar of her gravel and a big sponge from one of her filters from her cycled tank a few days ago. My tank is still showing 1ppm ammonia. Zero nitrites and zero nitrates. I was told it would be a pretty near instant cycle but it’s been since June 23. I have 4 polar blue parrots and a krib in the tank. Should i change the water ? Should I take the 407 off the 75 and swap it with the 307 on the 60 ? I just don’t know. Thank you in advance

Using established biomedia, as with other methods of adding nitrifiers ('beneficial bacteria'), does not guarantee significantly improving the cycling process. There are a lot of other factors in play.

First and most common is differences in parameters, specifically pH. If there are significant differences in either direction in the new versus old tank, the nitrifiers may not function as well, or even at all. Temperature matters too - a cooler tank will see slower nitrification rates, potentially.

Second is the amount of biomedia you took versus the amount total amount, and how much ammonia was being handled. For example, when I transferred some of my biomedia from an old tank over to my new tank, I only took a relatively small portion and calculated that in the new tank, it would only handle about 0.06ppm ammonia a day - so definitely not even close to instantly cycling the new tank.

So I am not sure why anyone would ever tell you it would be an instant cycle, considering the factors above.

There can be times transferring biomedia over would be an instant cycle, yes, but it has to definitively be enough biomedia to handle the bioload of the new tank, plus parameters have to be the same. The most common example would be for example, if one is upgrading a tank and transferring ALL biomedia over and the same stocking over, and parameters are the same. Then that'd be an instant cycle, more or less.

So, questions:

1. What is the pH of your current tank versus the tanks the biomedia came from?
2. You have not done any water changes at all since the tank was set up?
3. Was your ammonia higher than 1ppm before? Did ammonia ever go down naturally (without water changes)?

 

yep, the bioload is probably too much for the small amount of seeded media. low pH can also slow down the BB.

if you swapped one of the filters, you may not have enough BB for your 75g and it would start a mini cycle in there.

try to do a 50% water change every other day (48hrs) if possible. if not, you can add an extra dose of Prime to help detox the ammonia for 48hrs.

 

Using established biomedia, as with other methods of adding nitrifiers ('beneficial bacteria'), does not guarantee significantly improving the cycling process. There are a lot of other factors in play.

First and most common is differences in parameters, specifically pH. If there are significant differences in either direction in the new versus old tank, the nitrifiers may not function as well, or even at all. Temperature matters too - a cooler tank will see slower nitrification rates, potentially.

Second is the amount of biomedia you took versus the amount total amount, and how much ammonia was being handled. For example, when I transferred some of my biomedia from an old tank over to my new tank, I only took a relatively small portion and calculated that in the new tank, it would only handle about 0.06ppm ammonia a day - so definitely not even close to instantly cycling the new tank.

So I am not sure why anyone would ever tell you it would be an instant cycle, considering the factors above.

There can be times transferring biomedia over would be an instant cycle, yes, but it has to definitively be enough biomedia to handle the bioload of the new tank, plus parameters have to be the same. The most common example would be for example, if one is upgrading a tank and transferring ALL biomedia over and the same stocking over, and parameters are the same. Then that'd be an instant cycle, more or less.

So, questions:

1. What is the pH of your current tank versus the tanks the biomedia came from?
2. You have not done any water changes at all since the tank was set up?
3. Was your ammonia higher than 1ppm before? Did ammonia ever go down naturally (without water changes)?

Using established biomedia, as with other methods of adding nitrifiers ('beneficial bacteria'), does not guarantee significantly improving the cycling process. There are a lot of other factors in play.

First and most common is differences in parameters, specifically pH. If there are significant differences in either direction in the new versus old tank, the nitrifiers may not function as well, or even at all. Temperature matters too - a cooler tank will see slower nitrification rates, potentially.

Second is the amount of biomedia you took versus the amount total amount, and how much ammonia was being handled. For example, when I transferred some of my biomedia from an old tank over to my new tank, I only took a relatively small portion and calculated that in the new tank, it would only handle about 0.06ppm ammonia a day - so definitely not even close to instantly cycling the new tank.

So I am not sure why anyone would ever tell you it would be an instant cycle, considering the factors above.

There can be times transferring biomedia over would be an instant cycle, yes, but it has to definitively be enough biomedia to handle the bioload of the new tank, plus parameters have to be the same. The most common example would be for example, if one is upgrading a tank and transferring ALL biomedia over and the same stocking over, and parameters are the same. Then that'd be an instant cycle, more or less.

So, questions:

1. What is the pH of your current tank versus the tanks the biomedia came from?
2. You have not done any water changes at all since the tank was set up?
3. Was your ammonia higher than 1ppm before? Did ammonia ever go down naturally (without water changes)?

The ph is the same as the other tank. 7.2 I did 2 water changes. About 30%. The ammonia was .5 and then 1. That’s why I did the water change. The ammonia is staying at 1 until today it’s at 2ppm. The tank has about 22 plants in it and 2 good size pieces of driftwood. At one point the tank was cloudy and I was told it was the wood making it cloudy but it didn’t make sense to me as I thought wood made it tea colored , not cloudy. I did a water change when it was super cloudy and I’m wondering if I stalled the cycle ? The api master kit reads 2ppm ammonia, zero nitrites and 5 nitrates. My aunt who’s kept fish for 24 years told me not to do any more water changes or it won’t cycle. She said dose it with prime daily and use stability and wait it out. I don’t know what to do.

yep, the bioload is probably too much for the small amount of seeded media. low pH can also slow down the BB.

if you swapped one of the filters, you may not have enough BB for your 75g and it would start a mini cycle in there.

try to do a 50% water change every other day (48hrs) if possible. if not, you can add an extra dose of Prime to help detox the ammonia for 48hrs.

I can definitely do a water change right now. I was waiting because my aunt said it would stall the cycle.

 

I can definitely do a water change right now. I was waiting because my aunt said it would stall the cycle.

Water changes will not stall the cycle and aren’t optional when you have fish in the tank.

I’d suggest you test daily and change enough water to keep the combined level of ammonia and nitrites at or below 0.50 ppm. Dose Prime at each water change based on the entire water volume of the tank.

Keep us posted and good luck.

 

Gotcha, thanks for all the info. So firstly, no, water changes do not at all impact the cycle, even 100% ones. Your aunt is entirely wrong about the water changes, specifically because this is a fish-in cycle. If you want, ask her exactly why water changes would stall/prevent cycling, and I can absolutely explain where she's wrong.

Bacterial blooms, in case you are wondering, are kinda relevant to cycling in that it can potentially be a negative sign. Bacterial blooms will be predominantly of non-nitrifying heterotrophs, microorganisms that can and do compete directly with nitrifiers ('beneficial bacteria') for at least some nutrients, specifically ammonia.

Unfortunately with plants in the tank, it is hard to say what is going on. Zero nitrite can mean there is no ammonia oxidation, or that any nitrite formed from ammonia oxidation is pretty much being immediately oxidized to nitrate, while nitrate at zero may be due to consumption by plants.

In short, all you can do is keep up with water changes while dosing Prime.

If you are going to use a bottled bac product, I would never suggest Seachem Stability, or similar products such as Brightwell Microbacter 7. These contain heterotrophic microorganisms that you don't really want to grow. In fact, the reason for your bacterial blooms may very well be the Seachem Stability. Hence yeah, I don't recommend them. There are plenty of actual good bottled bac products. The one that I'd suggest above all is FritzZyme TurboStart 700, the best bottled bac product out there. Their optimal pH is 7.3-8.0 allegedly, but still work outside of that range.

 

Water changes will not stall the cycle and aren’t optional when you have fish in the tank.

I’d suggest you test daily and change enough water to keep the combined level of ammonia and nitrites at or below 0.50 ppm. Dose Prime at each water change based on the entire water volume of the tank.

Keep us posted and good luck.

Okay thank you. I will

 

Bacterial blooms, in case you are wondering, are kinda relevant to cycling in that it can potentially be a negative sign. Bacterial blooms will be predominantly of non-nitrifying heterotrophs, microorganisms that can and do compete directly with nitrifiers ('beneficial bacteria') for at least some nutrients, specifically ammonia.

I have to disagree. my research on this points to that a heterotrophic bloom does not compete with the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, Hetrotrophs break down the uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter, dead animal matter, etc. into ammonia and feed a cycle. they rapidly multiply and consume the excess waste that needs to be broken down so that the autotrophic nitrifiers can then feed on the ammonia they produce as waste, when they heterotrophs consume the resource, they downsize and die off and the bloom ends. the danger of a bacterial bloom is when they bloom they switch to aerobic, rapidly multiply and consume oxygen along with the resource they are consuming that caused the bloom. a tank can go low o2 and cause stress on fish, and along with the ammonia they produce create a deadly situation for the fish..

Now, Diatoms, During photosynthesis diatoms use energy from light to convert water and carbon dioxide into sugars for food. they use ammonium, ammonia and urea for reproduction and they multiply at a speed much like heterotrophs, diatoms use silicates to build their outer casing. Diatomaceous Earth are dead diatom carcases/fossils it's their shells.
A diatom is a photosynthetic, single celled organism, or phytoplankton. they are the smallest form of food (I think) in the food chain and feed zooplankton, most freshwater tanks don't have zooplankton at least not at first.
Diatoms will bloom, consume CO2 and Light and silicates and produce oxygen, and die off when they consume resources, and then produce ammonia with the die off like everything else does when it dies and gets broken down in the nitrogen cycle. Diatoms do compete with the autotrophs to an extent but compete as low order plants would, or algae, and the end result of the die off is ammonia/ammonium.
Diatoms around the world are the largest biomass on the planet and account for 20-50% of the oxygen production annually.

These are all natural systems to make water livable and a balanced ecosystem. On a large scale. it's mostly seemless with one feeding another, the diatoms feeding the zooplankton, or consuming CO2 and producing O2 using ammonia and dying off in their reproduction cycle, and the heterotrophs feeding on the dead diatoms and the dead everything else and breaking them down into ammonia and consuming oxygen, and the nitrifiers consuming the ammonia and oxygen creating nitrates, and then Plants use nitrates as well as denitrifying bacteria in low oxygen anoxic zones that are hard to replicate in an aquarium which is why water changes are recommended to remove excesses. It all goes full circle and why it's called a cycle.

in the case of heterotroph or diatom blooms, the end result is ammonia when they exhaust the resource that caused the bloom and they die off back to reasonable numbers and become "fixed" again and out of sight.

 

I have to disagree. my research on this points to that a heterotrophic bloom does not compete with the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, Hetrotrophs break down the uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter, dead animal matter, etc. into ammonia and feed a cycle. they rapidly multiply and consume the excess waste that needs to be broken down so that the autotrophic nitrifiers can then feed on the ammonia they produce as waste, when they heterotrophs consume the resource, they downsize and die off and the bloom ends. the danger of a bacterial bloom is when they bloom they switch to aerobic, rapidly multiply and consume oxygen along with the resource they are consuming that caused the bloom. a tank can go low o2 and cause stress on fish, and along with the ammonia they produce create a deadly situation for the fish..

Now, Diatoms, During photosynthesis diatoms use energy from light to convert water and carbon dioxide into sugars for food. they use ammonium, ammonia and urea for reproduction and they multiply at a speed much like heterotrophs, diatoms use silicates to build their outer casing. Diatomaceous Earth are dead diatom carcases/fossils it's their shells.
A diatom is a photosynthetic, single celled organism, or phytoplankton. they are the smallest form of food (I think) in the food chain and feed zooplankton, most freshwater tanks don't have zooplankton at least not at first.
Diatoms will bloom, consume CO2 and Light and silicates and produce oxygen, and die off when they consume resources, and then produce ammonia with the die off like everything else does when it dies and gets broken down in the nitrogen cycle. Diatoms do compete with the autotrophs to an extent but compete as low order plants would, or algae, and the end result of the die off is ammonia/ammonium.
Diatoms around the world are the largest biomass on the planet and account for 20-50% of the oxygen production annually.

These are all natural systems to make water livable and a balanced ecosystem. On a large scale. it's mostly seemless with one feeding another, the diatoms feeding the zooplankton, or consuming CO2 and producing O2 using ammonia and dying off in their reproduction cycle, and the heterotrophs feeding on the dead diatoms and the dead everything else and breaking them down into ammonia and consuming oxygen, and the nitrifiers consuming the ammonia and oxygen creating nitrates, and then Plants use nitrates as well as denitrifying bacteria in low oxygen anoxic zones that are hard to replicate in an aquarium which is why water changes are recommended to remove excesses. It all goes full circle and why it's called a cycle.

in the case of heterotroph or diatom blooms, the end result is ammonia when they exhaust the resource that caused the bloom and they die off back to reasonable numbers and become "fixed" again and out of sight.

Yo.

So firstly, just want to say I am happy that you are around

Secondly, I will say you are correct about a lot of what you said. Absolutely, heterotrophs can and do break down stuff into ammonia. Yes, diatoms do use ammonia and related compounds for growth. Yes, heterotrophs (and diatoms) do die off when their nutrient availability is limited.

However, there is one thing you are missing in your statements - the ammonia that heterotrophs produce, can and are used by these same heterotrophs as a nitrogen source. This can be via a number of metabolic pathways, though very commonly for amino acid biosynthesis. Ammonia is incorporated directly into both L-glutamate and L-glutamine, which can then be subsequently utilized for biosynthesis of other amino acids such as L-arginine, L-proline, etc. Anyways long story short, yes heterotrophs do absolutely compete against nitrifiers for the same resource, i.e. ammonia.

Now, your point on the die off of heterotrophs and all these other consumers of ammonia is a good one, as ultimately their decomposition could and would release nutrients back into the system - and that can of course feed the nitrifiers. Still, did not mean there was not competition between non-nitrifying heterotrophs and autotrophic nitrifiers in the mean time however.

Of course, all this depends on what one considers a ‘cycled’ tank. I preferably consider a cycled tank to be where nitrifiers are what is handling most of the ammonia produced, but unless one cycles by ammonia-dosing, it is not guaranteed to establish nitrifiers as the main consumers of ammonia anyways, at least not in the short term, so like in op’s case here where it is a fish-in cycle, ‘cycled’ would just mean ammonia and nitrite is somehow kept at zero whether via nitrification or otherwise.

 

Okay thank you. I will

I still have ammonia. Never seen nitrites. It appears to finally have nitrates.