New Tank - Need HELP!

First mistake, I THINK, was to listen to an employee at our local Petsmart! The guy has seemed like he knew what he was talking about AND since I'm NEW at this, I followed what he said. Actually, him and a co-worker of his told me to do the fish-in cycling with two Rosy Red Minnows.

Anyway, here goes (little long, but not bad):

Took some water to the store this past Sunday for testing. He told me that it was time to vac the gravel, which in turn would take water out (water change). He also told me that I didn't need the two minnows anymore that my tank was cycled. He said this b/c I told him our water was "crystal clear".

Yesterday I took everything, except one live plant out (including the minnows), and vacuumed the gravel w/the hand-held suction thing we bought. It was my first time doing this, so don't know if I done it completely right, but did see junk going into the bucket with the water. Ended up taking out around two gallons of water. Along w/1 swim-thru décor, put one artificial plant back in (had taken out 3) and put another live plant in. Also have a Moss Ball and a Betta Grass Pad in it. Anyway, already had 2 gallons of room-temperature tap water, so put that in, along with 4 drops of Prime (2 drops per gallon). The water was cloudy for a little while and then completely cleared up to "crystal clear" again.

I tested the water this AM at home w/API Strips......WON'T get these again! Ammonia was high as well as Nitrate! Too high! Also, took a sample of water to Petsmart and a girl checked it this time. She told me that I needed a water change. My Ammonia and Nitrate and Nitrite (think that's what she said) was too high. Told her that I done a gravel vac yesterday along with replacing 2 gallons of water and adding 4 drops of Prime. She told me to add 4 more drops of Prime to help the water. Also, gave the two minnows back to the store. When I got home, I added 4 more drops of Prime.

Did we take the minnows out to soon? Was there bacteria on the artificial plants, that I didn't put back in? Right now, it looks like we needed to keep the minnows in there longer. If the water numbers don't get better, what do we do? Get two more minnows? Was planning on getting our Betta this Friday, but not with water like this!

 

First off, you should fill out the aquarium info once you get 3 posts. Then we can help you a lot more. Next, you should get the API Freshwater master test kit. its cheap on amazon and its great. Then you need to read a lot! Firstly about cycling your tank. Google it, or go the beginner section and read up.

 

How long were the minnows in the tank before you removed them? What were the test readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

 

Welcome to Fishlore! Joining this forum makes up for any mistakes you might have made in the past!

You need to cycle the tank before it's safe for your fish. Cycling means you go through several stages of different kinds of beneficial bacteria multiplying to adequate numbers to convert the toxins (fish poop, uneaten rotting food, decaying plant particles) into a much less toxic form. This is the short version. To get the long, complete version, please read the info about the nitrogen cycle.

You have two main alternatives to cycle the tank:
1. With fish
2. Without fish

Without fish is the safest method, but it can take up to six weeks or even longer until the tank is ready for your first fish. In order to speed up the process, you can add a high number of these beneficial bacteria to your tank, best in the form of Tetra Safestart. In this case, you MUST have one or two fish in your tank, which will provide the ammonia for the bacteria. This fish-in method takes about two weeks and usually works well, but sometimes needs to be repeated.

As thefishnoob mentioned, it is very important that you have your own test kit to test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. These are the most important parameters of your water, unless your tap water is extremely hard or extremely soft. Most people can just use their treated tap water for most fish without problems.

The test kit most of us here use is the API Freshwater Master Kit. With regular tests, you can keep on top of your water quality and take necessary steps in case the parameters are off. The parameters also tell you whether your tank has finished cycling and is safe for your fish.

In general, but particularly during the cycling of your tank, you want to be a bit restrained with your vacuuming and cleaning of the tank. You don't want to disturb the beneficial bacteria.

So for the time being - as you currently don't have any fish in your tank, right? - please take the time to read up on the nitrogen cycle and decide which cycling method you want to do. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions, and don't believe anything they tell you at the fish store!

How big a tank do you have and what kind of fish (and how many fish) would you like to keep?

 

HI there , welcome aboard


**EDIT removed my post**

Oddly enough (internet lag I'm assuming) there wasn't any replies to this thread when I looked into this lol. I blame IOS 7

Jileha pretty much hit it on the nose and everything I was gonna say.

 

The minnows were in 19 days.
Readings for:
Ammonia: 0, .5, 0, .5 after this, they started going up to 6
Nitrite: 0, 0, 0, 0, .5, 1, between .5 and 1
Nitrate: 0, 10, 0, 0, 0, 0, (there was a 20 somewhere in there
On Jan 29, done a 10% water change and added 1/4 tab of Jungle brand Conditioner (from WalMart)

How long were the minnows in the tank before you removed them? What were the test readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

I don't know, but the MORE AND MORE I read "get the Master Water Test Kit", I'm really wondering now. I thought the Strips would be fine for a small 5 gallon tank!!

 

Get the API Master Freshwater Test Kit (Liquid, not strips)

Test your source water so you know the baseline, i.e. if there are nitrates in the source, you can't ID that as being definitely cycled/if your pH is 6.4 or lower, it will be very difficuly to cycle your tank.

 

pH has been 7.2 to 7.5.

Get the API Master Freshwater Test Kit (Liquid, not strips)

Test your source water so you know the baseline, i.e. if there are nitrates in the source, you can't ID that as being definitely cycled/if your pH is 6.4 or lower, it will be very difficuly to cycle your tank.

So, without a doubt, the API Master Freshwater Test Kit is the best........right? Even for Beginner's, like us, it is THE BEST?

Ok, what about Prime Water Conditioner? Used it (4 eye dropper drops) on Monday when doing about a 50% water change w/vacuuming of the gravel and putting another live plant in. Put 4 more drops in yesterday.......advised by Petsmart after water test done.

Today (few minutes ago), looked at water and seen junk floating around. Looked like tiny pieces of fish flake. Done a 20% water change and added Conditioner. Research online yesterday, said to put a flake or two in to get bacteria going. So, I did. After check water at Petsmart, told worker that I put flakes in and she told me to take them out.......don't want them, the test results said. So, I used a baster and took as many as I could see laying on the gravel. Only had to add 8 oz. of water.

Now what? Just wait and check water tonight?

 

Stop listening to the people at your petsmart. Don't even talk to them when you go in. Just pretend like they don't exist. They know about what you know, probably less...but they walked in, filled out and application and were hired. They are there because they need money. There are SOME employees that know what they are talking about of course but it doesn't seem like your store has any.

API freshwater test kit is what you need. You can get it cheaper on Amazon but it doesn't matter. I believe petco will price match amazon's price. Petsmart will NOT price match Amazon.

Prime is used by many on here and they seem to love it. I, personally, use Stress Coat+ and love it and don't use anything else. Totally up to you what you use to condition your water.

I think you should probably grab a bottle of TSS and add it 24+ hours after you last added ANY chemicals to your tank. After that you do NOTHING besides let the fish swim in there. You really only need one fish in a tank the size of yours for proper ammonia production.

Don't mess with the tank for 11 days and then test the water. The tank should be cycled. You don't mention if you are using a filter or a heater. You will need a heater as betta's like their water around 75-80 degrees roughly and a filter gives the beneficial bacteria a place to colonize and helps keep the water clean for your fish.

As far as fish, if you took them back to the store then checking your water is pointless. You have to have something in the tank providing ammonia so if you removed the fish AND the fish food flakes then there is nothing in the tank making ammonia so the bacteria that you already have will starve and die.

 

Darn.......you guys keep using abbreviations that a NEW dude doesn't know! What is TSS????
Anyway, we just happen to like the people we talk to at Petsmart! We (wife/I) are quickly figuring out what and what not to ask, but to just ignore them.......nope, ain't gonna happen!

Looks like we will end up getting the Master Kit. When people get older, like us in mid 60's, they can be quite stubborn!
We need 2 to 3 minnows b/c it's a 5 gallon tank. We had two last time and things seemed to be fine, but three might be better. Was told, and not by a Petsmart employee, that only one minnow would not cycle the tank.
Anyway, we are learning, "Tough Love" learning (LOL), but still learning!

 

TSS= Tetra SafeStart
You can be polite to everybody at PetSmart
API Master Freshwater Test Kit is very good, even for beginners.

 

So, without a doubt, the API Master Freshwater Test Kit is the best........right? Even for Beginner's, like us, it is THE BEST?

No, there are more accurate tests out there, but they are more complicated, and more expensive. But the API Master Freshwater kit is the standard that most people use.

Think of it this way, the API test kit is the most commonly-used kit with accurate results. But it's not going to compare to someone using laboratory-class kits that use more accurate methods (difference in chemicals, more involved testing.)

So is the API test kit THE best and most accurate kit out there? No. But it's accurate enough for about 98% of the users.

 

Hello! Welcome to Fishlore!!

As you do not have any fish in your tank, I would highly recommend doing a fishless cycle. My cycle only took 2 weeks with this method, but then again, I had live plants.

Fishless is better because as there are no fish involved, no matter how many mistakes you make, it won't hurt any creature. Also, ANY ammonia in the tank can permanently hurt a fish, so it is always better to do fishless, even if you keep up on daily water changes and use prime in a fish-in.

To do a fishless cycle, get PURE ammonia (make sure there are no soaps or scents in it) and dose up to 4 PPM. Then, add that same amount and test every day until you see nitrite appear. Then, dose 1/2 the amount daily until the tank is cycled.

On the topic of pet store employees: Generally, they don't know anything. A guy was once surprised I wanted a filter for a betta. Sometimes, you will find a rare gem who is trying to educate everyone, but unfortunately it is not the norm. It is always better to do research at home, go to the petstore, and listen to the employees with respect and selective hearing.

 

Ok, here are the very latest few minutes ago......6:05PM Wednesday night) water perimeters from testing with the API Strips here at home:

Nitrate: between 80 and 160
Nitrite: 10
pH: 7.5
Ammonia: 0.5
(hope our eyes are comparing the strips with the color code on the container right)

What are these numbers mean????
Should we put a pinch of flakes in the tank or leave it alone until Friday when we decide what we will do (fish flake or buy two more minnows). Will do a couple more water tests before Friday to see how the water is doing.
Thanks!

 

Those numbers mean your tank is working on cycling but you're not quite half way there.

First the fish create ammonia (or in a fish less cycle the fish flakes or pure ammonia you add make the ammonia) and the test will read high on ammonia as yours does. When you have enough bacteria to eat the ammonia the test will read 0 ammonia and stay that way. 0 ammonia is the only safe amount for fish.

After these bacteria that eat ammonia are present they will start eating the ammonia and making nitrites. with an I, NOT nitrates. When the nitrites are present more bacteria will grow and reproduce and these bacteria eat the nitrites. Eventually your tests will show nitrites are at 0. 0 is the only safe level of nitrites for fish.

As for nitrates, those are what are produced by the bacteria who eat the nitrites. Some nitrates are fine. Generally about 5-10 but up to 20 is ok. If they are higher than that and your tank is cycled then a water change should get them back to a safe level and you're set.

To sum it all up, your levels in a fully cycled tank on the API freshwater master test kit should be Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 0-20.

As far as my comment before, I was partially joking about ignoring the employees. I didn't mean you shouldn't talk to them. What I meant was that you need to look up your questions online and get the correct answer because they don't usually have the correct answer. So far everything they have told you has proven false which proves that point. Just make sure you research yourself. They are taught nothing about fish care besides how to feed them for the most part so their advice would just be someone who knows just what you know or less....giving you advice. Just go with proven advice that you find or ask about here where there are people who have had tanks for years and know from proven fish keeping what is what. Even if they know how the tanks in the store work, it's different in home tanks. The tanks at the pet store have around 5000 gallon sumps where as your home tank is just a few gallons on a filter. Diseases are treated differently, feedings are different, etc. It's just the nature of the beast so to speak.

Hope this helps!

 

The numbers also show that the number of minnows you had is more than enough to do the cycle. If your tank is 5 gallons then you do not need more than 2 and one is plenty to do it. One or two fish WILL create enough waste and ammonia to cycle a 5 gallon tank.

 

One employee at Petsmart told us how good the Marineland Eclipse Hex 5 filter and BIO Wheel was and her saying that to us is why we bought it. So, she was RIGHT in her recommendation! We were told about fish-in cycling from a different employee from the Fish/Aquarium Department b/c that is what they do. After reading about it online, decided it would be easier that to keep adding ammonia and testing every day! With the "feeder fish", you simply feed them, do water changes and monitor the water chemistry. Pretty easy to us. Didn't bother us at all to use these minnows for this purpose.

Funny, a replier in a different forum told me " the Strips are faulty and your tank is not cycling! Get the API Master Kit ASAP". Gee, see how people, even in these forums, can be different in their opinions! You say our tank is coming along and the Strips are showing that and he's says they are faulty and the tank is not cycling!

One employee at Petsmart told us how good the Marineland Eclipse Hex 5 filter and BIO Wheel was and her saying that to us is why we bought it. So, she was RIGHT in her recommendation! We were told about fish-in cycling from a different employee from the Fish/Aquarium Department b/c that is what they do. After reading about it online, decided it would be easier that to keep adding ammonia and testing every day! With the "feeder fish", you simply feed them, do water changes and monitor the water chemistry. Pretty easy to us. Didn't bother us at all to use these minnows for this purpose.

 

Test strips are inaccurate, which would mean that we really don't know the accurate readings of your tank. Still if you have an ammonia producer(the fish), the bacteria will grow and your tank will approach a state of balance at some point. Liquid test kits are more accurate but even some of them you need to take with a bit of experience(the nitrate bottle need to be shook and banged on a solid surface to break up the crystals, if it has been on the shelf for any length of time).
The nitrogen cycle is a constant life cycle which adjusts to the level of ammonia produced by fish waste, and rotting material(food, dead plant material). If you have one fish in your tank, it will cycle to handle the waste produced by that single fish. When you add more fish, the bacteria will need to multiply to handle the increased ammonia production(cycling). This is why, even after you reach safe levels, you can only add a couple fish at a time and generally have to wait a week or two afterwords. If you over feed, the bacteria must adjust to this(it will increase to handle the increase in ammonia and then die off when the production drops again). This happens fast enough that you will never notice a change in ammonia levels. When you take out a fish or one dies, the ammonia production decreases and some of the bacteria die.

There are ways to decrease the time it takes to reach the balanced cycle to the bio-load in your tank. These include plants(absorb both ammonia and nitrates), seeded media(this is a cartridge or sponge from the filter of an established tank, or bottled bacteria like Tetra safe start. The longer you take to add these items, the less impact on the time it takes to reach cycle balance. This is because bacteria multiplies by doubling and adding it earlier has a exponential impact versus a slight increase in numbers.

As your tank reaches cycle, you will need to look at how you can remove the nitrates which are the final result of the nitrogen cycle. Live plants absorb nitrates and make for great ways to both reduce cycle time, absorb the final product, and create a buffer for the cycle itself. Other than plants, you will need to do regular(weekly) water changes of at least 10%. Keep in mind that when you change water, your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels will be reduced by the percent of water that you change, as long as your tap water does not add any of these items(reason we suggest that you do a baseline parameter test of your tap water). If you are on a municipal water supply, you will likely have chlorine or chloramine, which is also poisonous to your fish, this can be taken care of by a conditioner like Seachem Prime or API water conditioner(must have hydrosulfite salt in it).

As for your filter, those are a matter of personal choices. Sponge filters work fine for smaller tanks, hang on back power filters are great for mid sized tanks, with canister filters being used for larger tanks(55+). What is important is the GPH flow rate of the filter, which should be around 5 times the volume of the tank in question. This adjusts depending on the stocking level of the tank and the sensitivity of the fish to current strength. I personally use penguin bio-wheel power filters for my various tanks.

The people in this forum are generally helpful and rarely talk down to individuals looking for help. They are quite good at helping individuals in setting up their first tanks, but they tend to favor both Tetra Safe Start, API Master Test, and Prime conditioners(somewhat obsessively). Still most are quite talented at helping people with setting up new tanks(which there are about 5 new threads a day asking for help), as well as treating diseases. Many other forums have an elite class that talks down to you. Personally, when I want to talk fish, I come here, when I want to talk planted tanks, I go to the plantedtank.

I personally have been doing fish off and on for the last 35 years, though I suffer horribly multi-tank syndrome(I have 7 tanks, 5 set up right now).

Welcome to the forum and with a little patience you will have a healthy running tank.

 

The strips are generally not as accurate as the liquid test kit. Many people are biased against them. They are basically a "use them until you can get a liquid test kit" thing.

If you have fish in, and you are seeing Nitrite and the strips are correct, your cycling has begun.

but they tend to favor both Tetra Safe Start, API Master Test, and Prime conditioners(somewhat obsessively).

Because they tend to work. Bottled bacteria is still a controversial subject, with some people denying they work at all, and some using nothing but. There are brands which seem to never work, and brands which seem to have the highest success rate. SafeStart is that brand. Shared with BIO-Spira and Dr. Tim's One and Only (all three were developed by the same person, Dr. Tim.)

Seachem makes some top products, and their dechlorinator is one of the most concentrated on the market, and provides additional benefits, including detoxifying Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

API's test kit is also considered the standard because it works, is easy to use, and provides accurate results.

When a product has shown over its lifetime consistent, good results, it tends to develop a reputation for being good. And in an industry where things can be very expensive, something that does what it says 99.9% of the time gets recommended.

 

Because they tend to work. Bottled bacteria is still a controversial subject, with some people denying they work at all, and some using nothing but. There are brands which seem to never work, and brands which seem to have the highest success rate. SafeStart is that brand. Shared with BIO-Spira and Dr. Tim's One and Only (all three were developed by the same person, Dr. Tim.)

Seachem makes some top products, and their dechlorinator is one of the most concentrated on the market, and provides additional benefits, including detoxifying Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

API's test kit is also considered the standard because it works, is easy to use, and provides accurate results.

When a product has shown over its lifetime consistent, good results, it tends to develop a reputation for being good. And in an industry where things can be very expensive, something that does what it says 99.9% of the time gets recommended.

The extras in Prime are great, if you actually need them. After the tank is cycled, they become unneeded additives. You can get hyrdrosulfite salts and dilute them yourself, making them more cost effective but it requires greater expertise. If I remember correctly, doesn't your employment make you biased in this matter.

There are many different and accurate test kits out there, some more complex and some more simplistic than API. I agree that it is an excellent test kit and I recommend it myself, but that does not preclude the fact that it is not the end all.

There is a giant list of products that have shown good, consistent results until they are replaced by something better. In an industry that is full of conflicting opinions put forth as fact, the reputation of a product changes depending on where you get the information, as can be seen in this thread.

Now we can return to the topic at hand and stop hijacking this thread for a discussion on biases.

 

The extras in Prime are great, if you actually need them. After the tank is cycled, they become unneeded additives. You can get hyrdrosulfite salts and dilute them yourself, making them more cost effective but it requires greater expertise.

Adding complexity when you can just buy a bottle off the shelf for a cheap price. Why maintain two separate products? It's good to have a bottle of something that can neutralize Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate in an emergency. And since you only need 2 drops per gallon for normal conditioning, even a small bottle should last you a long time.

If I remember correctly, doesn't your employment make you biased in this matter.

Considering I don't work for any aquarium or aquarium-based product company, no.

There are many different and accurate test kits out there, some more complex and some more simplistic than API. I agree that it is an excellent test kit and I recommend it myself, but that does not preclude the fact that it is not the end all.

There is a giant list of products that have shown good, consistent results until they are replaced by something better. In an industry that is full of conflicting opinions put forth as fact, the reputation of a product changes depending on where you get the information, as can be seen in this thread.

No, I know API is not the only test kit that exists, and I am considering getting Seachem's when my test kit gets low, because I have read it's more accurate.

API's not only has the advantage of being accurate, and relatively cheap, but widely-available. When something fits all three attributes, you are going to find it's recommended more often. You can have a test kit with 100% accuracy, but if it's $200, and/or only available by special order, you are unlikely to see it recommended often, especially to new people.

 

One employee at Petsmart told us how good the Marineland Eclipse Hex 5 filter and BIO Wheel was and her saying that to us is why we bought it. So, she was RIGHT in her recommendation! We were told about fish-in cycling from a different employee from the Fish/Aquarium Department b/c that is what they do. After reading about it online, decided it would be easier that to keep adding ammonia and testing every day! With the "feeder fish", you simply feed them, do water changes and monitor the water chemistry. Pretty easy to us. Didn't bother us at all to use these minnows for this purpose.

Again, I am not saying every dog doesn't have its day. Just because they heard marine land and bio wheel is good or were told to **** it via their boss does NOT make them knowledgable. It seems like you would have a cycled tank at this point or be much closer if they hadn't given you their 2 cents. You don't have to listen to me but you DID ask for our advice and I have been running tanks for over 15 years so I'd like to think I know a little something. Just saying. Again, you can take everything you hear with a grain of salt. Some people love bio wheel and some think that it's silly as you can just add another filter cartridge and have the same bacteria home without worrying that, when the ball stops rolling in the water, the ball dries out and the bacteria on the ball die making it pretty much useless. Again, just saying. Fish in cycling is not easier and it doesn't seem like you researched it all that well either considering you think it's easy and that you get to test less. Adding a few drops of ammonia and testing is easy. With fish in cycling the fish is adding the ammonia instead of you and you still have to test EVERY DAY so you don't kill the fish...who is being damaged in the cycling process for life. You have to test and adjust if your parameters aren't right which means you can't just let the bacteria take over if you dosed a little too much ammonia...instead, to save your fishes life, you have to do a major water change...daily...until the tank is cycled. Seems like a lot of back breaking work to me. I would know as I have been cycling a tank and doing 10 gallon water changes daily for 2 weeks up until my tank finished cycling about 4 days ago.

 

OP, have you read yet about the nitrogen cycle? I don't mean to sound mean, but it sounds like you have very limited knowledge about cycling a tank. Fishlore has a very informative article on it, and you should be able to click the link in the words to take you right to it.

I also suggest getting an API Master test kit. Why? Because, as it's been pointed out, the test strips are not very accurate. In order to know how quickly and how well your tank is cycling, you need to know more exact readings than the strips will give you.

I don't recommend the "fish food" method of cycling. Food takes a while to break down and create ammonia to feed the bacteria, which probably accounts for your ammonia level dropping so quickly. Instead, get ammonia drops from an aquarium store (this way you know they're safe for your tank) and bring the ammonia level to 4ppm daily. Test your water before adding ammonia. You'll know that your tank is cycled when the readings are Ammonia: 0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: (some showing, most likely 20-80) within 24 hours of you adding the ammonia drops to bring the ammonia level to 4ppm.

At this point, it's safe to add fish.

If you're impatient and want to get a fish right now, do a 90% water change, add a fish, and add a bottled bacteria product like Dr. Tim's one and Only, or Tetra Safe Start. Others either have mixed results or don't work at all, but these two products have been proven to do what they are supposed to do by hobbiests all over the world.

I also recommend Prime as a water conditioner. For the record, I started using it long before I came to fishlore and found it to be the best water conditioner out there. It's now the only one I use. The thing is, if you use it on initial setup, wait 48 hours before adding the bottled bacteria, as Prime is known to interfere with the bacteria in the commercial BB sources.

Good luck in your fishkeeping endeavor! I know you'll enjoy your betta. I certainly enjoy all of mine

 

HI ClassicRockGuy

My goodness, this thread is confusing and I'm fairly experienced.
More than some, not as much as others and always learning new things.

I also see some rudeness and debates from some members that is not necessary.

Cycling can be confusing as all get out.
We all have different ways of doing things and as you noticed, we don't all agree.

I won't go into a big long post about test strips vs liquid test kits or cycling methods.
Looks like you have enough of that already.

What might help is this:
FishLore's Free E-Book

You can sit down at your leisure, read through it.
Hopefully it will help clarify some things for you.

Good luck!

 

As Lucy mentioned, this thread is getting confusing.

So first off I would like to address cycling. I think that in Post #18 Sarcasm Included did a nice job of explaining the nitrogen cycle. In a cycled tank fish produce toxic ammonia that then gets consumed by a bacteria that lives in your filter. This bacteria releases toxic nitrite as it's waste product which will get consumed by a second bacteria that lives in your filter. This bacteria then releases nitrate as it's waste product.

The problem is that before these bacteria develop, you just have high ammonia/nitrite levels which can kill the fish. So your goal should be to develope this bacteria without harming any fish. (I mean you got fish because you like them, not because you want them to be poisoned...right?)

And while as Sammy Hagar would say "There's only one way to Rock", there are several ways to cycle.

(1)The absolute safest as far as fish are concerned is by cycling fishless. Which means adding an ammonia source to the water to simulate the ammonia that the fish produce. (BTW when cycling with ammonia you do not add ammonia daily, but to try to keep this a bit shorter I will not go into how to do this unless you think you want to cycle this way)

(2) The second best way is by adding the bacteria directly to your tank. This can be achieved in one of two ways. One way would be to add filter media from an established tank which already contains bacteria (seeded media). The second would be to add a bacteria additive such as Tetra SafeStart.

(3) The least desirable method is a fish in cycle with adding bacteria. The reason this is the least desirable is because you are either exposing the fish to toxins making them suffer, or you are exposing yourself to daily partial water changes with Prime making you suffer. The reason you do the daily water changes with Prime is because a standard dose of Prime will detox up to 1ppm ammonia for 24 hours. So the water changes keep the fish safe from suffering due to ammonia/nitrite exposure.

Next I'd like to add my two cents about your Bio Wheel. I used to have an Eclipe12 with a Bio Wheel. It was a great tank. But here was my take on the Bio Wheel. In theory the bio wheel houses the bacteria that keeps a tank cycled. Having the bacteria in the bio wheel allows you to replace monthly the cartridge without causing you to loose your cycle. The reason for replacing the cartridge monthly is because the cartridge has carbon inside of it, and carbon only last about 4 weeks before it gets saturated and stops working.

And while I prefer to use carbon, it is not a must have. I was always a bit worried about possible bio wheel failure (they tend to sometimes get stuck when they get older and if stuck long enough the bacteria on the portion of the wheel that is not in contact with the water will die off). Bo I just cut a slit in the cartridge and dumped out the carbon. That way the cartridge could be used indefinitly (just swish in dirty tank water with each weekly water change). Since the cartridge isn't being replaced bacteria will colonize there giving some wiggle room in case the bio wheel ever got stuck.

As mentioned test strips are notorious for being inaccurate. And lets face it, if you cannot trust your results, what good are they? So the API kit is well worth the investment. Plus it last a loooong time.

Lastly (finally...right?) Nitrite levels (as well as ammonia levels) that are too high will actually stall the cycling process. And a nitrite level of 10ppm is way to high. So no matter what method of cycling you choose, I highly recommend a partial water change to get those nitrites down to about 3ppm.

Oh yeah...one last thing, when I first started back into keeping fish again about 6 years ago, I though that the place you would get the very best info would be the fish store. I mean it's waht they do for a living, you would think they would know their stuff. But in reality more often than not, you will get the worst advice at the fish store. That was a tough lesson to learn for me. But I have to say I've keep fish off and on throughout the last 45 years and since discovering FishLore I never had the success I'm enjoying now (not even close)

Best of luck and believe me, everyone here wants to see you succeed!

 

First of all welcome to Fish lore ClassicRockGuy, I was total newb 3 months ago, killed 11 fish to get my tank ready and steady, but if it wasn't for fishlore I wouldn't have made it so easy after the initial disaster.

I feel the following posts should be helpful.

1. Sarcasam included post #18
2. Lusy post #24

The book is very easy to read, highly accurate information, and all you need to know about fishkeeping beginer. Once you done with it (took me 3 days even tho is 500 pages) you will have easy time understanding everything that people try to tell you without confusion.

Good luck with getting your tank ready.

 

Thursday 7:45AM: Just checked the water perimeters with API Strips and the readings haven't changed from last night! Same as below.

We were told, in a forum reply, to crush up a piece of fish flake and put into the tank, did that last night but no change in water perimeters. Now, this morning, was told, in another forum reply, to take any pieces of fish flake out (that I could see) before adding any minnows, and I just done that.

Looks like we will be getting two more of the "hardy" minnows. Had Rosy Red's last time, but read that Zebra Danio's can handle the cycling as well.
Wondering.....put in two minnows like last time, or put in three this time? BTW, it's a 5 gallon aquarium.

Wife is now helping me with comparing the test strips to the color coding chart on the strips container. At our age, 2 sets of eyes are better than one set! LOL, but true!

Everyone comments are interesting, but can be confusing when reading a reply that differs from another reply on the same forum!

Ok, here are the very latest few minutes ago......6:05PM Wednesday night) water perimeters from testing with the API Strips here at home:

Nitrate: between 80 and 160
Nitrite: 10
pH: 7.5
Ammonia: 0.5
(hope our eyes are comparing the strips with the color code on the container right)

What are these numbers mean????
Should we put a pinch of flakes in the tank or leave it alone until Friday when we decide what we will do (fish flake or buy two more minnows). Will do a couple more water tests before Friday to see how the water is doing.
Thanks!

 

In this case if you going to finish the cycle with the 2 minnows I would suggest you do 50% water change to reduce the nirites and nitrAtes, then wait 24 hours for the water conditioner to ware off (really not less then 24 hours). Add Tetra Safe Start (small bottle is enough for your tank, put it all in you can't overdose) shake the bottle very well before adding, and head to the LFS to get the fish.

Then don't touch the tank for 2 weeks, and feed moderately.

I believe its the simplest way to go that will cause you less trouble

Martin

 

In this case if you going to finish the cycle with the 2 minnows I would suggest you do 50% water change to reduce the nirites and nitrAtes, then wait 24 hours for the water conditioner to ware off (really not less then 24 hours). Add Tetra Safe Start (small bottle is enough for your tank, put it all in you can't overdose) shake the bottle very well before adding, and head to the LFS to get the fish.

Then don't touch the tank for 2 weeks, and feed moderately.

I believe its the simplest way to go that will cause you less trouble

Martin

Going to agree with this. If you are going to do a fish-in cycle, use SafeStart. It will add the appropriate bacteria already, and jump start your cycling process. There will be no question whether or not it started, because it will be. And it shortens it down, too. SafeStart is supposed to take no longer than 2 weeks to cycle the tank. Some people have had success in less time. It will also reduce stress on the fish.

Wal-Mart also carries it, and will likely be a little cheaper than PetSmart, if there's a Wal-Mart closer to you.

 

First, the pet store employees: Yes, we had one give us wrong info......at least it appears to be wrong. Our tank wasn't cycled yet, but he told me it was b/c the water had been crystal clear for awhile. On top of that, to him, the water perimeter readings (that he done with their Tetra Strips) simple showed told him that we didn't need the minnows anymore. He said "vacuum the gravel and add new water from what the vacuuming took out......you are now ready for a Betta". He works for Petsmart full-time, has aquariums at home, so we figured his advice was trustworthy. I mean, how would we know any different?

A couple of other employees, at same Petsmart, answered our questions and both of them have aquariums at home as well. So, looks like to me that they are give advice/answering questions from their experience with their tanks.

As far as the fish go, when it comes to cycling: We chose the Red Rosy Minnows b/c they are "hardy" fish and can handle the cycling process. We were NEVER planning on keeping them! After the tank was cycled, our new male Betta would be next. I would NEVER use a fish that we wanted to keep to do the cycling process for us.......NO WAY!! Some folks do the fish-in cycling and we've heard from them, while other don't like. "To each their own" I just don't think that people that do it should be critizied for doing it!

 

Does everyone agree with this? I mean, those that don't agree with fish-in cycling won't, but others.

In this case if you going to finish the cycle with the 2 minnows I would suggest you do 50% water change to reduce the nirites and nitrAtes, then wait 24 hours for the water conditioner to ware off (really not less then 24 hours). Add Tetra Safe Start (small bottle is enough for your tank, put it all in you can't overdose) shake the bottle very well before adding, and head to the LFS to get the fish.

Then don't touch the tank for 2 weeks, and feed moderately.

I believe its the simplest way to go that will cause you less trouble

Martin

 

My honest opinion is that you should never use fish to cycle a tank that you don't intend to keep. It puts unnecessary hardship on those fish, that will be returned to the store and possibly reused for that purpose.

I would suggest just getting your Betta, and using the Tetra Safe Start to cycle the tank safely, if you don't want to do a fishless cycle. Fishless cycles obviously won't harm any fish, but that's a personal preference.

Also, clear water has nothing to do with a cycled tank. When I put water in a brand new tank, it is crystal clear, but the tank obviously isn't cycled. So that information would have been irrelevant to the pet store employee.

 

Okay since what your end result is that you want a betta then I recommend you do one of the following two things:

1) Do a large water change (or several back to back...heck you can just do 100% water change) to get the ammonia and nitrite down to below 1ppm.Then just put a betta in the tank. Then do daily partial water changes with Prime until the tank cycles.

2) Do a 100% water change wait 24 hours dump a bottle of SafeStart and a betta into the tank at the same time, then do nothing other than feed your betta for the next 14 days. On day 14 test your water and if all worked correctly, the tank will be cycled.

I personally do not find cycling a betta tank by doing daily water changes cruel, since the betta has it much worse in the death cup. But just be sure to do the water changes daily with the Prime to stop the fish from being exposed to ammonia and nitrites.

I see no reason to use fish you do not plan to keep for the pourpose of cycling, when you can just use the desired fish.

Thursday 7:45AM: Just checked the water perimeters with API Strips and the readings haven't changed from last night! Same as below.

We were told, in a forum reply, to crush up a piece of fish flake and put into the tank, did that last night but no change in water perimeters. Now, this morning, was told, in another forum reply, to take any pieces of fish flake out (that I could see) before adding any minnows, and I just done that.

It is not surprising that your ammonia levels have not changed. It does take some time for the fish food to decompose and turn into ammonia, plus one flake would not produce that much ammonia regardless.

I'm feel confident that the advice to remove the flakes before adding the minnows was because you would be adding minnows which would start producing ammonia, but thenyou would also have decaying fish food producing ammonia. That would just lead to too much ammonia in the tank.

Much of the conflicting info you are getting is due to the fact that you appear to be all over the map on which cycling method you are going to use. Advice that is good for cycling fishless, is not good for cycling with fish (and vice versa)

 

Don't think people will agree with this (getting the Betta) now. If something does go wrong, I rather have something happen to a couple of minnows than to a nice Betta.
Now, if a Betta would be ok when using either Safe Start or Quckstart, I would consider getting the Betta now.
Thoughts?

My honest opinion is that you should never use fish to cycle a tank that you don't intend to keep. It puts unnecessary hardship on those fish, that will be returned to the store and possibly reused for that purpose.

I would suggest just getting your Betta, and using the Tetra Safe Start to cycle the tank safely, if you don't want to do a fishless cycle. Fishless cycles obviously won't harm any fish, but that's a personal preference.

Also, clear water has nothing to do with a cycled tank. When I put water in a brand new tank, it is crystal clear, but the tank obviously isn't cycled. So that information would have been irrelevant to the pet store employee.

 

A life is a life. Saying that getting 2 minnows to do the cycle just because they're hardy is not good. A fish-in cycle WILL hurt any fish. There are ways to do it safely, but this can be difficult. As you do not have any fish in the tank, I PLEAD to you to do a fishless cycle. They are the #1 preferred method IMO, and there is no chance of hurting a fish. Doing a fish-in cycle will mean daly water changes (unless you use Tetra SafeStart), so they are actually more work than adding a few drops of ammonia every day.

I don't think you should ever buy fish you don't intend to keep, hurt them, then return them to a place that they will be hurt at again. This is extremely stressful, and Bettas are very hardy as well (why not do a fish-in cycle with the betta?)

I think you should do a fishless cycle with pure ammonia, but if you are dead-set on doing a fish-in cycle (which I do NOT recommend), I would get the betta you intend to keep, and add Tetra SafeStart.

 

We will consider using a Betta..........BUT, only consider.

 

I have used TSS to cycle 4 different Betta tanks, with good results. These guys were spur of the moment purchases so I didn't have the time to fishless cycle. All are still alive and happy. I have also done fishless cycling with ammonia for 2 other Betta tanks. Same thing. As hopeful fish said, a life is a life, and those poor minnows may be used in that manner again should you return them.

 

Whatever fish are in the tank, I would absolutely use TSS. Because you are instantly adding the correct bacteria to your tank, you are lessening the stress of the fish by using this method.

The point was also made in an earlier post that the "cups of death" bettas are frequently kept in @ the pet store vs a 5 gallon tank with TSS ...the 5 gallon tank would be the much healthier option.

I personally wouldn't cycle a tank (WITH TSS) , using fish I wasn't going to keep. They did a great job with helping me cycle the tank...I feel like I owed it to them to make sure they were kept in a good environment and not suffer or get used as food (if returned to the LFS/LPS). LFS= local fish store. LPS= local pet store

So again, if it was me...

5 gallon tank
Heater
Filter (whenever you clean the cartridge, clean with either used tank water or treated new water)*
Large water change (or smaller frequent water changes until about 75%-90% of original water is changed)
Add new treated water
Wait 24hrs
Add TSS
Feed fish lightly while cycling
No water changes for 2 weeks...unless ammonia is measured at 1.0-1.5 for 24 hrs
If you do a water change, you could have to restart the cycle after the water change

*Filter cartridges should only be changed when falling apart, as this is where the beneficial bacteria live. In the case of the bio wheel...even though much of the bacteria might live on the biowheel, the filter cartridge also provides surface area for more bb (beneficial bacteria) to grow. You have to use either new treated water or tank water because it doesn't contain chlorine/chloramine that will kill off the bb.

 

I would NEVER use a fish that we wanted to keep to do the cycling process for us.......NO WAY!!

I agree with everyone above. Using TSS and adding your betta will be the best way to go

With Tetra Safe Start you can definitely cycle the tank with the fish you want to keep and it will reduce the stress. You will also have an easier time than adding and removing fish because the bioload would expand to deal with the betta's bioload instead of struggling to keep up when you change the bioload in the tank. SafeStart is made to allow you to start right away so you don't have to sit around with an empty tank running for a month or with fish in the tank for a month suffering.

That being said, I also do fish in cycling which a lot of people don't like. I just think that the TSS does such a great job at cycling the tank and reducing stress to the fish that the fish-in cycle isn't horrible.

Just remember: After changing the water and adding your dechlorinator make sure you wait 24 or more hours before adding the TSS because the dechlorinator takes 24 hours to disappear from the water and it will kill off the beneficial bacteria in the TSS bottle that you're trying to grow.

 

What you are telling us here is the Safe Start will protect the Betta........correct?

So, when people get upset because they bought a nice fish, took it home, put it into a new aquarium (one that hasn't been cycled yet) and the fish dies it is because the person didn't put Safe Start into the tank first, right?

And, from you reply, it's not a good idea to take the minnows out and put a Betta in. Better to put the Betta in in the first place. Just want to make sure I'm getting this correct.

Did read about "bioload" and I THINK I understand it, but I'm sure not experienced in this "fish keeping" like you and other folks are on this forum. That IS fact!

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With Tetra Safe Start you can definitely cycle the tank with the fish you want to keep and it will reduce the stress. You will also have an easier time than adding and removing fish because the bioload would expand to deal with the betta's bioload instead of struggling to keep up when you change the bioload in the tank. SafeStart is made to allow you to start right away so you don't have to sit around with an empty tank running for a month or with fish in the tank for a month suffering.

That being said, I also do fish in cycling which a lot of people don't like. I just think that the TSS does such a great job at cycling the tank and reducing stress to the fish that the fish-in cycle isn't horrible.