New Tank Livestock Question

Spencer318

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Hi there, I'm pretty new to the hobby and wanted to see how much i could get away with in my new tank. So I have a 60 gallon tank with a filter for a 100 gallon (cascade 1000), plan on having live plants (amazon sword, java moss, etc.), some driftwood, and a slate cove/cave. All on a sand substrate. So my question is with the list provided below, could i get more fish or am i at max? The ones with the * are the ones i absolutely must have.

*Synodontis Lucipinnis x 3
*Angel x 2
*Kuhli Loach x 3
Cherry Barb x 5
*Black Molly x 3
Guppy x 5
*Betta x 1
*Rubbernose Pleco x 3
Neon Tetra x 5
 

sfsamm

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Discus-Tang said:
Here's my advice:
Replace rubbernose plecos with bristlenose plecos

Make sure your guppy M:F ratio is at least 1:2

Don't get a betta

Up your numbers of kuhlis, barbs and neons to 6

Prepare for angelfish terrorism.

Sorry if I sound blunt.
Agree with this entirely... And the synos would also appreciate a couple additional friends but they will be ok with 3... But when provided enough friends they are much less prone to hiding and much more fun to watch. and the schools mentioned above at the end of the day you can always add more there if you have available bioload and want to have a bit more action as again the more the merrier!
 

MissRuthless

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I don't think you'll have room for all those bottom feeders. The kuhlis need a larger group, six or more. One cave is not enough for three synos and three plecos, they will all need their own hiding spaces and will probably fight if there aren't enough. Synodontis get huge, at least 6-8" and will need more space if you want that many. Plecos add a lot to the bioload as well. So do mollies. Do not put a betta with angels. You will have dead fish. Don't. And don't put neons in there either, they'll disappear quickly. Beyond the obvious space and personality issues, you'll need to keep in mind the temperature needs of all these fish. You can buy angels that are too small to eat neons right now, but neons and angels cannot thrive in a tank together because their temperature needs are so different. Rubbernose plecos can't tolerate angelfish temps either. Then hardness - the livebearers will prefer harder water, but the angels, betta and neons need soft, acidic water.

I think you should spend some time doing research on the fish you want most, and decide on what else may be appropriate to stock with them based on what your research tells you. It's really important to research beforehand so you can make informed decisions that will result in a successful stocking plan and little to no dead or unhealthy, unhappy fish.
 

sfsamm

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Synodontis Lucipinnis only get to around 5".
Tank raised Betta do fine in harder water as do Angels, but both in the tank will absolutely net you a lot of heartache as said before. Mollies and Guppies are also unlikely to do well in a lower pH.
I totally missed the neons and agree with miss ruthless about the neons. The cave also is a good consideration as I don't keep Pleco I didn't consider their needs previously but they synos will take chunks for their cave even among themselves I would assume that they wouldn't flinch at going after a Pleco as they do stand up to Rift Lake Cichlids.
I also after a thought which is what brought me back to this thread to begin with...

Maybe something like...

Spencer318 said:
*Synodontis Lucipinnis x 3
*Angel x 2
*Kuhli Loach x 3 (get 6+)
Cherry Barb x 5 (skip these)
*Black Molly x 3 (1 male 2 female ratio)
Guppy x 5 (1 male 2 female ratio)
*Betta x 1 (skip this)
*Rubbernose Pleco x 3 (Bristle nose instead)
Neon Tetra x 5 (skip this)
Test your source water and consider something as follows below based on your results. I added a couple notes on the quote above that you should find useful.

PH 7.5 and up :
Synodontis
Mollies
Guppies
And maybe a Kissing Gourami as a larger midwater fish.

PH below 7.5 :
Angels
Kuhlis
Pleco
And rather than barbs or neons or guppies or mollies get a large school of a robust bodied tetra like Congos, Columbians, or Lemons all of which will be happy in waters near neutral pH and can handle a bit below.

You have an assortment of temperaments that are unlikely to work long term. And fish that prefer wide range of water parameters from 6.5-8.
 

WanhiBetta

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Bettas and Angels together is a really bad idea.

You also need to check the temperature compatibility.... betta's need water at 80F and Neon tetra at 75F, so you definitely can't have both.
 
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Spencer318

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Omg thank you all for the advice! Still have a lot to learn so I'm happy I'm getting it now before I harm any fish with lack of knowledge. So to expand on what I said earlier, I'm going for max capacity. So the combos with what could be added very much helps. Also I'll have a few hiding places such as the cave, a vase with holes, the plant life, and the drift wood. Definitely need the angel fish, kuhlis, and synos as they are top priority.
 

Mom2some

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Two angelfish is asking for trouble they will either pair up & terrorize the other inhabitants when mating OR they will be same sex & fight each other. Just do one. They will also eat anything that fits in their mouth (ex neons). They also are aggressive towards other fish with long tails (ex betta, guppy & gourami).
 
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Spencer318

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Ok so based on the info ya'll have provided on top of research (because i forgot to take PH into account) here is the new list i have come up with. The info in the [ ] is what i found from care research on those specific fish.

Synodontis Lucipinnis x 3-4 [75-80 deg, 6.5-8.5 PH]
Angel x 3 [72-82 deg, 5.8-7.0 PH]
Cherry Barb x 6 (2m/4f) [74-79 deg, 6.0-7.0 PH]
Black Molly x 3 (1m/2f) [68-82 deg, 7.0-8.0 PH]
Misc Molly x 3 (1m/2f) [68-82 deg, 7.0-8.0 PH]
Fancy Guppy x 6 (2m/4f) [64-82 deg, 5.5-8.0 PH]
Bristlenose Pleco x 3 [60-80 deg, 6.5-7.5 PH]

Keeping the PH between 6.5-7.5 and temp at 78 degrees. With a rock formation that has 3 caves, an ancient looking vase (with holes), some driftwood (preferably bog) and live plants (amazon sword, horn wort, crypt, java moss). Is this the maximum amount of fish I can have, or are there specific others that i could throw in there? Also any other care information that i missed would be greatly helpful.

Also as a side note, as far as the aggressiveness of Angelfish i keep seeing mixed info, most common one i see is if you get 2-4 angels as babies they'll be fine as long as they grow up together as i would be adding the Angel's last.
 

aussieJJDude

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Spencer318 said:
Also as a side note, as far as the aggressiveness of Angelfish i keep seeing mixed info, most common one i see is if you get 2-4 angels as babies they'll be fine as long as they grow up together as i would be adding the Angel's last.
Nope, not really true from my experiences. Grew up 2 (6ish week) old babies together, once as maturity it was game over for one as they were both males so had to rehome one. Once angels hit maturity, its either all or nothing!
 

MissRuthless

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Agree with @aussieJJDude, I have grown out several pairs and groups of angels and they pretty much all turned violent at maturity. Unless you have multiple cycled tanks to separate them when they fight and/or spawn, I would not advise more than one. They will get along great for awhile, but it's likely the problems will escalate very quickly when they start and may land you with a dead or disfigured fish.

If you plan to have any angels, you'll want to keep the temp at at least 80 for them to thrive. Keep in mind that the temp ranges given online for fish vary from site to site, are often inaccurate, and when accurate are a representation of the minimum temperatures the fish can survive in, not what they can thrive in. Angels can't thrive in the low 70s. I could be wrong but I don't believe BNs can thrive anywhere in the 60s, and I question whether they could survive any considerable period of time as cold as 60 degrees.

I would also not choose any species of smaller barb to go with angels, as most of them can be nippy and angels are easily victimized slow swimmers. The harassment can be hard to pick up on and you may not notice it until your angel is visibly suffering or sick. As I think @sfsamm said, perhaps one of the more "robust" (that was a good word choice!) warm-water tetras would be a better choice. You will also have to accept the possibility that your synos will eat any or all of these smaller schoolers, and the guppies. I assume you want the livebearers as a food source so hopefully they doesn't matter.

I won't say this again if you insist, but especially if you are now considering four synos, I think it would be wise to not get three BNs. One, maybe two - but you have the same footprint as a 55g, and seven territorial catfish that will grow to at least 5" is a tight squeeze. Four is a tight squeeze.Going for max capacity, whether in the sense of bioload or temperament, is not really the best idea for your first stocking in your first tank.

Which reminds me - what are the dimensions of this tank anyway? I just assumed it was a breeder, but I went to plug your tank specs into aqadvisor and the only 60 they list is a hex which I didn't know was a thing, and I've seen more 60 talls than breeders so I should probably ask. It does matter a lot.

I entered your tank as the breeder size on aqadvisor with the list above, and I took the liberty of entering only one angel - your stock level is 117% and your filter is of insufficient capacity, and aqadvisor tends to give conservative estimates without accounting properly for temperament. It's generally recommended to stay around 80% stocked, or less. You may be able to successfully maintain this tank with such a heavy stock later on when you know what you're doing, but it's not wise to start off with such a precarious arrangement.



I definitely did not know there was a dwarf synodontis species though, and that greatly increases my risk of MTS relapse!
 
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Spencer318

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Oh sorry I should have given my tank specs earlier.

48L x 12W x 23-24H (21-22H after sand)

Temp would be kept at 78 degrees (seems to be the sweet spot, based on research) and PH between 6.5-7.5.

Based on all the feedback I'm getting on the Angel's I'm starting to entertain the idea of having something else other than Angels. Because I definitely want a busy looking tank where their's always something to see. Due to the angel's I'm seeming to have to pretty frequently reduce my list.

So if there would be an equally as attractive substitute or if by having them removed I could have multiple different other fish, let me know. Like I said I'm trying to go for a busy looking, colorful, looks full (not actually full) tank with small to mid sized fish (really love watching small schools of fish).

Also any tank combo idea's of fish that include the list provided below would be wonderful!

Black Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Fancy Guppy x 6 (2m/4f)
Bristlenose Pleco x 2 (reduced to 2, thanks Ruthless)

BTW I also want to say thank you all so much for spending some of your time answering my questions. Even with as much research as I've done (lots of hours) I know there's still a lot for me to learn, so I greatly appreciate your thoughts and advice.

So far the new list I've come up with (btw I didn't know about Aqadvisor, thanks for that) for a community tank is:

Harlequin Rasbora x 6 (2m/4f) (Edit: took out the cherry barbs)
Black Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Misc Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Fancy Guppy x 6 (2m/4f)
Bristlenose Pleco x 2
Dwarf Gourami x 2
Neon Dwarf Rainbow x 6
 

Mick Frost

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You'll probably have more activity if you include a school of signal fish. Replacing your Cherry Barbs with a Scissortail Rasboras or something similar would fill that role as well, and they're not infamous nippers like the Barbs are.
 
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Spencer318

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Mick Frost said:
You'll probably have more activity if you include a school of signal fish. Replacing your Cherry Barbs with a Scissortail Rasboras or something similar would fill that role as well, and they're not infamous nippers like the Barbs are.
Awesome, thanks, i switched them out with Harlequin Rasbora's. Finding out the Harlequin fit me a little better as I'm a DC comic nerd lol.
 

Mick Frost

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Spencer318 said:
Awesome, thanks, i switched them out with Harlequin Rasbora's. Finding out the Harlequin fit me a little better as I'm a DC comic nerd lol.
Harlequin are a little small, but they are good signal fish. Not sure if they're too small to keep with the cats.
 

sfsamm

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Spencer318 said:
Also any tank combo idea's of fish that include the list provided below would be wonderful!

Black Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Fancy Guppy x 6 (2m/4f)
Bristlenose Pleco x 2 (reduced to 2, thanks Ruthless)

So far the new list I've come up with (btw I didn't know about Aqadvisor, thanks for that) for a community tank is:

Harlequin Rasbora x 6 (2m/4f) (Edit: took out the cherry barbs)
Black Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Misc Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Fancy Guppy x 6 (2m/4f)
Bristlenose Pleco x 2
Dwarf Gourami x 2
Neon Dwarf Rainbow x 6
Caution with Gourami most can be jerks to one another if you keep more than one. I don't know for sure on DG as I've not kept them myself. And I'd get like 12+ harlequins so they don't blend into the fray. Just my opinion though.


Mick Frost said:
Harlequin are a little small, but they are good signal fish. Not sure if they're too small to keep with the cats.
I think they'd be fine with BN even as juveniles.
 
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Spencer318

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So right now the below list is the list I am going to go with, I'm not completely sold on the dwarf rainbow's so any substitution ideas would be very welcome. I maaaaaaaay increase the harlequin's to 12 but thats dependant on what is settled on for the rest. According to Aqadvisor I'm about 7-8% overstocked with this list but the filter is fine.


Harlequin Rasbora x 6 (2m/4f)
Black Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Misc Molly x 3 (1m/2f)
Fancy Guppy x 6 (2m/4f)
Bristlenose Pleco x 2
Dwarf Gourami x 2 (1m/1f) (1 flame, 1 neon blue)
Neon Dwarf Rainbow x 6 or Cosmic Blue Danio x 6
 
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