new tank, ammonia, columnaris?

UPDATE

GOURAMI IS LOOKING PRETTY GOOD, TETRA STILL LOOKING PALE BUT STILL WITH US, JUST LOST A DANNIO LOOKED LIKE ORGAN FAILURE POSSIBLY DUE TO A RENEWED ATTACK OF COLUMNARIS DESPITE CHANGING TO A NEW TANK

HE WENT DOWN QUICKLY GOT BLOATED, HAD BLEEDING AT THE GILLS, I KNOW MY ammonia IS BETWEEN 1-3 PPM AT PRESENT AS I HAD TO MOVE EVERYONE TO A NEW UN-CYCLED TANK TO TRY AND STOP THE COLUMARIS, HOWEVER I HAVE BEEN DOING AT LEAST 10 OR 20% WATER CHANGES DAILY AND TREATING THE WHOLE TANK WITH PRIME EACH DAY TO NEUTRALIZE THE AMMONIA EFFECT..................................

THIS WAS POSTED AT THE END OF MY OTHER THREAD BUT NO ONE HAS REPLIED FOR A FEW DAYS SO THOUGHT MAYBE I SHOULD START A NEW THREAD?????



ANY IDEAS?

 

Glad your gourami's doing ok. Keep watching the fish closely. Looks like I got off easy when my tank got columnaris- you were hit hard. The bloating sounds like dropsy, but I don't think that would cause bleeding at the gills. Definitely no new fish for a while and use a QT when you get them!
Good luck

 

All caps is not really nessecary. But I don't know why you would add them to a tank that is uncycled. Just keep up the water changed to keep the ammonia down. You could add a bacterial additive to the tank, such as TSS to cycle the tank..

 

I got a new tank and transferred them over as I had columnaris in my old tank and was trying to stop all the fish from dieing from that, not the best thing to do, but under the circumstances it was the lesser of 2 evils.

I have moved the same stocking levels from a 40 gallon tank to a 55 gallon tank

I am changing out 10% min every day and treating whole tank with prime daily to neutralize the ammonia etc etc

Ziggy FYI!!! the caps were for my benefit, need glasses couldnt find them need to see what I am typing, better caps and communication than no caps and no help...........some of us out here are old farts! and slowly falling apart, but are still fish lovers trying to do the best for our little friends!

 

I don't follow the logic of taking sick fish and moving them into a new tank hoping nobody else gets sick.

When I had columnaris, I culled the two symptomatic fish, did a 50% water change, scrubbed down the walls of the tank, dosed at half-dose aquarium salt and that was it. Columnaris nipped in the bud.

Now, fish that have been weakened by a horrible disease are in a toxic enviroment. It's not really a good idea.

 

Well I said what I was planning to do before I did it, everyone was telling me it was a difficult thing to eradicate, no one came and told me not to put them in a brand new tank, no one suggested aquarium salt or anything like that.......finally someone came up and told me I could use the old filter in the new tank to help kick start the cycle, but by then that was too late as the old filters filter was drying out so the good bugs would have died.

I even asked best advice of how to ensure decor etc etc got clear of columnaris prior to going out and purchasing a new tank and stand and making the transfer.

I thought the whole point of prime was to ensure that the water wasn't toxic to fish, what happens if you lose your cycle at some point or another, are the fish then classed as being in a toxic environment because the tank is not currently cycled?

I am not here asking to be chastised I am asking for advice?

Now it would seem the last time I asked for advice, it was not the best advice I could have got................

Now I have fish in the tank they are in, I obviously can't use the old tank as it too no longer has a cycle in it either and regardless of what anyone may think, I am trying to do my best for them..................

So can I have some advice as to what to do for the best now in the situation I am in.........please?

 

Moving them to an uncycled tank is definitely not a good idea, it'll only stress the fish further making it get worse. I've never used aquarium salt to treat columnaris but certain fish like cories are extremely sensitive to salt and that's why I think nobody suggested it for you. Columnaris is certainly capable of wiping out a whole tank in a very short amount of time but sometimes only a few fish are affected and can be treated quite easily,I believe it depends on the strain of bacteria that caused it.

 

Okay, at this point, given that you were previously given lousy advice or no advice, you've got fish in an uncycled tank. So, you need to be very diligent about taking your readings. You've got to do lots of water changes.

You were not being chastised, you left us confused with the decisions you made, that's all. You can't have a soft skin when asking for advice, because sometimes advice comes with tough love attached. That hasn't even happened here yet.

Prime doesn't completely remove the toxins in your tank. The cycling process makes it toxic.

Prime removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat.

So, Prime is your best bet, whether cycled or not. But it's not a miracle pill.

 

I am and have been since my old tank got columnaris been doing daily water changes and as I had lost my cycle in my old tank and also had that bacteria in it, moved them to a new tank. the water changes are between 10 - 20 % a day, today just to be on the safe side I am doing a 50% water change and cleaning the inside of the tank glass, today my gourami is looking a little listless so back to the garlic treatment for him.

If I am using prime daily and I have a fish that feels like he has little or no slime coat, what else can I do for that fish?

I think the little dannio that died had organ failure having inspected him closer, so far everyone else seems ok other than my gourami this morning, sort of bottom sitting and tilting to the side a bit, I have him in garlic treatment in a nursery net close to the surface so he can still (gulp air)

 

Update

My gourami died, other than he had no slimecoat and was swimming listlessly, he seemed ok, good colour, had been eating until the day before he died!!!!

The tetra is still holding his own, another garlic bath for him tonight, his colour is looking much better in his tail and fins but his body colour is still very pale.

Still waiting for my full testing kit from amazon, but the ammonia strip shows ammonia at 1ppm,

so here is a question........why waiting for the tank to cycle, I am doing daily water changes of 10% on a 50 gal tank then treating the whole tank with prime, when the ammonia level showed 3ppm I did a 50 % water change, is there anything else I could be doing that I am not currently doing?

Thanks all

 

I'm very sorry you lost your gourami...... hope the test kit gets there quickly.

With a reading of 1 on ammonia, do a 50% water change.

 

... You could add a bacterial additive to the tank, such as TSS to cycle the tank..

+1, but the prime might cause some issues since it "locks up" ammonia which is the main food source for the bacteria. If you buy TSS, check the expiration date on the bottom of the bottle.

Get your ammonia as low as possible with water changes and then dump in the bottle. Don't change any water unless you notice the toxin levels rising. The initial levels of ammonia will still show up in testing, but it should be harmless ammonium. Your tank should cycle very quickly. I've had great success with TSS.

The way I use it for a new tank is to set the tank up, dechlorinate it and run it for at least 48 hours empty. Then I add my fish AND the TSS together, I usually never see anything but .25ppm ammonia (might be from my tap water chloramines) and I usually see no nitrItes at all, just nitrAtes after a while.

 

I thought prime was supposed to make the ammonia less toxic for the fish, are you saying not to use prime or any other "chemical" of that ilk and to use the TSS after a 50% water change and then continue to do a 50% water change if the ammonia level climbs but not to add prime into the tank at all, to rely on the water changes to reduce the level of toxins in the water while the TSS does its work?

oh and my other kit turned up my ammonia keeps rising to 3, I now have .5 nitrite and 0 nitrate. My water is hard and my PH is 8.

And my other little guy is still holding his own

 

I thought prime was supposed to make the ammonia less toxic for the fish, are you saying not to use prime or any other "chemical" of that ilk and to use the TSS after a 50% water change and then continue to do a 50% water change if the ammonia level climbs but not to add prime into the tank at all, to rely on the water changes to reduce the level of toxins in the water while the TSS does its work?

When adding new water, you will have to use some kind of dechlorinator. Prime is good in most situations, but it will interfere with the TSS by locking up the food source that TSS bacteria needs.

If you want to use TSS and Prime, here's what I'd do. Keep doing large water changes on the uncycled tank to keep ammonia and nitrItes below 1ppm especially since your pH is so high. This should keep the fish happy over the next couple of days. Meanwhile, I'd refill the original tank with water and use Prime to dechlorinate it. I'd let that tank run for 48 hours so that the Prime releases any bound ammonia, and there won't really be much, just maybe a little from chloramines. After 48 hours, I'd put the fish in the pristine water and dump in the bottle of TSS, pour half straight into the filter box or intake. You should not see any spikes if all goes as it should. You may see a trivial .25 to .5ppm of ammonia day after day, but it shouldn't rise above that. You sholdn't see any nitrIte spikes either. Therefore, you shouldn't have to change any water for a couple of weeks.

Read this, everyone should it comes straight from Tetra:
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/q-a-with-tetra-about-tetra-safestart.58116/

All I can say is this stuff has worked very well for me, but be sure of the expiration date on the bottom of the bottle and don't let it get hot. If it looks like it might have been handled improperly, then find somewhere else to get it. I once use a bottle that was 3 months out of date, it didn't work.

EDIT: I expanded upon some things.

 

Columnaris is a tough bug. Daily water changes are key. There are some medications you can use, although at this point I don't think I'd go that route. I have previously used the Maracyn/Maracyn 2 medications together and that saved most of my fish. My columnaris started after a bout of Ich and raised temperature. Raised temps, especially for a long period of time, are a breeding ground for columnaris. One thing you can do is lower the temperature to 76. That, and the Maracyn treatments were how I eradicated my tank. From the sounds of it, I had a less virulent strain than you so I'm not sure it would work. There are antibiotics out there, (because columnaris is a bacteria it can be treated with an antibiotic) but I've never seen them.

Here is an article I ran across while researching

There's a good description of the bug and some advice on what to do.

As far as your current tank situation goes, keep doing the daily water changes. You can't use Prime for 24 hours before you use TSS, nor can you use it at all while it is cycling. Since your fish are already compromised I'd just do the water changes.

Good luck!

 

With 3ppm ammonia TSS will not work. The best thing to do is to increase the water changes. Get the ammonia down under 1ppm before it has a negative affect on the fish.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk

 

yes I did a 50%water change yesterday, I can't move the fish back to the old tank, we no longer have it, the good news is the whole moving the fish to a new tank has eradicated the columnaris

So I have been reading on this site about the nitrogen cycle, and want to make sure I am doing right by my fish.

I need to keep doing water changes until I get the ammonia under 1ppm then I can use TSS, pour it in through the bio filter to help seed that over as well.

When I have been doing my water changes I have been using the gravel vacuum to remove decomposed food and fish poop, however I just read that that can help increase the ammonia level in the water, so should I leave the gravel media well alone for a while?

could I use tetra aquasafe which doesn't say it does anything to ammonia, but does nuetralize chlorine and cloramines, then I could also use the TSS to boost the cycle??????

My tank temp is between 72 and 74 I haven't been using the heater as I was keeping it cooler to stay away from the columnaris bacteria.............

 

Get the ammonia under control with as many water changes as necessary. AI'm for 0.5PPM. Use your Tetra AquaSafe conditioner with each water change.

Then add TSS. Do nothing to the tank, but monitor your fish for any stress or disease. Here's a Q&A that should answer many of your questions with this product: https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/q-a-with-tetra-about-tetra-safestart.58116/

Any time you want to add to a posting, please use the Edit button instead of creating back to back postings. It is much easier to follow threads as they grow.

 

ok So here I am formulating a plan!!!

I will do 20-25% daily water changes while testing ammonia levels to ensure they come down to a safe level, will not disturb the substrate at all during this time. Will continue to treat with prime till I get my order from amazon for the TSS and the tetra aqua conditioner with bioextract that is supposed to help support beneficial bacteria. Then when they turn up I will do a big water change at least 50% maybe more, only treat with the tetra aquasafe, wait 24 hours then put in the safestart.

Oh and I put the heater on as the temp was between 72 & 74 it did go up to 76 but is now sitting at a steady 74.

Does this sound like a plan???

 

Hello all

want to keep you posted and ask more questions while waiting for the above one to be answered.

Sunday I did a big water change turned the filters off as they would run dry while doing change, forgot to turn filters back on and realized this morning.

when doing sundays water change I did not disturb the substrate, yesterday I didnt do a water change as I was not feeling that great.

Went to do the water change this morning tested the ammonia its 1ppm which is shocking, I would have expected it to be higher than that, discovered the filter was still off so did 10% water change and turned the filter back on.

So here are my questions

1. As the filter was off will any beneficial bacteria that was in there have died?

2. Why did the ammonia not build up since I did no water change yesterday?

3. Does good bacteria build up on the substrate or only where there is a moving oxygen source?

Am I supposed to vacuum the substrate while doing a daily water change or would that be over cleaning and should only vacuum once a week?

I know I have more but now I am having a brain fart actually despite being a brit I drink coffee not tea!!!!

How does prime Bind up the ammonia?

what happens if you lose the cycle once it is established?

 

"Prime converts toxic free ammonia into ammonium, which is non-toxic. While bound to Prime, ammonium is still available as a food source for beneficial bacteria, therefore Prime will not halt or slow the cycling process. While cycling, we recommend adding Prime every 48 hours to ensure that any ammonia and/or nitrites present are in a non-toxic form until consumed by the biofilter. Please let us know if you have other questions and have a nice day."

Above is what I got by way of an answer from Seachem about prime and how it works, thought it was worth sharing...........

 

1.) As long as your filters were moist/wet they should be still good. It is when they dry out that they lose their bacteria colony.

2.) The substrate does grow benefitial bacteria, however the water does not.

3.) Maybe it has not been long enough for the ammonia to build up in the water, or maybe some of it is turning to nitrite. Have you tested your nitrite.

If anyone can answer in more detail please do so.

 

Yes I tested nitrite this morning

ammonia 1 or less ( I say less coz I am using sticks right now and it was a bit lighter than 1)

nitrite .5

nitrate 0

Have rinsed filters in old tank water and have doubled dose of prime today......

Last week my ammonia levels with the sticks was showing at 3ppm now its a lot lower and I don't know why, I am as they say somewhat flummoxed.

My tetra is now not able to swim right, his tail is up his head is down I'm thinking it may be his swim bladder so am going to not feed him for 2 days and see if that helps him, then I will try feeding him peas at the same time feeding the other guys peas.

From now on I will soak the fish food in garlic water to aid the other fish digestion too..................

Man I seem to be having all sorts of problems ................I so hope I can get everything on an even keel soon......

 

to late he died maybe it wasn't swim bladder after all, no obvious signs other than the funky swimming as to why he died. Will have to say its probably my fault.

 

I don't know if I'm a bit late but I have had columnaris twice and I lost a lot of fish both times. I used an antibacterial medication and it saved qiute a bit of my fish