New cycling tank - Ammonia NOT dropping!

Hi all,

I have been away from fish keeping for around 5 years but now have time again to enjoy a fish tank.
For every tank I set up in the past I always did a fish-in cycle with zero issues. However, this time I thought I'd be kinder to fish and try a fish-less cycle.

I used Dr Tims ammonia as my ammonia source added according to instructions and my water tested at 2ppm ammonia. I have been dosing seachem stability (Dr Tims one and only was not available) and after 3 days my tank still read 2ppm ammonia. I panicked and added Fluval cycle biological enhancer and dosed with that too I also had some Evolution Aqua reef balls so I threw one of those in too.

I have cloudy water which I think is a bacteria bloom so I thought this was a good thing and in a couple of days my ammonia would start to reduce but after 5 days my tank STILL reads 2ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate.

I wouldn't mind if my ammonia was coming down even a touch so I knew the bacteria were doing something.. but the fact that ammonia has stayed at 2ppm the entire time worries me that nothing is happening and I have gone wrong somewhere..

By the way I am using new products not things that I have kept for 5 years.

pH = 8.2, stable throughout
Surface agitation with bubbles (using return pump)
Lots of rock and also using fluval biomax media and seachem matrix media in the filter sponge
Caribsea substrate (around 1-1.5 inches)
Temp was at 77F (25C) and have raised it to 80F (27C)
No skimmer
No filter sock
13 gallon tank (52L)

I am thinking of draining the tank and starting all over again with Dr Tims One and Only.

 

Is buying live rock out of the question? That would really help or adding some seeded media from established tank.

Other then that it should be just waiting for nitrifying bacteria to colonise and eat ammonia.

 

3 days isn't a long time to start the cycle. I would leave the ammonia at 2 and test daily. Once it starts you have to raise it back to the 2 until the 2 becomes zero in 24 hours and nitrites do the same. It usually takes weeks to run its course.

 

Things will happen eventually with a tank cycle. I know the "bacteria in the bottle" stuff says it will cycle quick, but its a scam in my opinion. Naturally it will take 4-6 weeks, if you speed it up maybe you get down to 3 weeks, maybe 2 by seeding. I don't like these products because the promise is unrealistic on them. Bacteria doubles in size every 15 hours at optimum parameters for growth. At less then optimal, slower.

Just an ammonia source will eventually get you your bacteria colonies through slow multiplication starting from scratch, and a completed cycle, the other stuff is just snake oil with a bunch of testimonies that it works quick, but who knows if that's fact or fiction... I don't believe it's fact.
Don't stress over it, the purpose of a fishless cycle is so you can kick back and relax and wait until it's cycled. If you want to stress over it, do an old school fish in and do a bunch of tests and water changes until it's done and worry about the fish the entire time not the bacteria.

 

The bacteria in a bottle products don't work every time. Dr. Tim's did not work for me, but works for some. Many new fishkeepers come here with the same issue you are having.

I would do a fish-in cycle or a fishless without the bacteria bottles. Fish in is much more work. It takes weeks, not days to cycle a tank.

I would use the time to plan and refine my new awesome tank.

By the way, what fish do you plan to keep?

 

Hi all,

I have been away from fish keeping for around 5 years but now have time again to enjoy a fish tank.
For every tank I set up in the past I always did a fish-in cycle with zero issues. However, this time I thought I'd be kinder to fish and try a fish-less cycle.

I used Dr Tims ammonia as my ammonia source added according to instructions and my water tested at 2ppm ammonia. I have been dosing seachem stability (Dr Tims one and only was not available) and after 3 days my tank still read 2ppm ammonia. I panicked and added Fluval cycle biological enhancer and dosed with that too I also had some Evolution Aqua reef balls so I threw one of those in too.

I have cloudy water which I think is a bacteria bloom so I thought this was a good thing and in a couple of days my ammonia would start to reduce but after 5 days my tank STILL reads 2ppm ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate.

I wouldn't mind if my ammonia was coming down even a touch so I knew the bacteria were doing something.. but the fact that ammonia has stayed at 2ppm the entire time worries me that nothing is happening and I have gone wrong somewhere..

By the way I am using new products not things that I have kept for 5 years.

pH = 8.2, stable throughout
Surface agitation with bubbles (using return pump)
Lots of rock and also using fluval biomax media and seachem matrix media in the filter sponge
Caribsea substrate (around 1-1.5 inches)
Temp was at 77F (25C) and have raised it to 80F (27C)
No skimmer
No filter sock
13 gallon tank (52L)

I am thinking of draining the tank and starting all over again with Dr Tims One and Only.

Hi there. You don't need to start all over again. I would suggest trying either FritzZyme TurboStart 900, its less concentrated version FritzZyme 9, or Bio-Spira. I cannot link links to other forums, but there has been a thorough study done elsewhere by a member, followed by follow-up studies by other members, to point towards these three products working best, far better than other products. As in they work really well.

Dr. Tim's One and Only and Stability are both very hit or miss, the former in fact I have seen only one post saying it worked over like 200 posts or so by now. It used to be the hobby default, but not anymore. People are moving away from it. This is especially given it is easier for bottled bac to work for marine aquariums, simply because a lot of the bottled bac products contain nitrifiers that are adapted to higher pH, and marine tanks of course would naturally have higher pH (whereas a lot of freshwater tanks can have a lower pH (<7) which can cause the bottled bac products to not work). So when about two or so years ago reports of Dr. Tim's stopping to work started surfacing, it was very disappointing.

My recommendation is to use FritzZyme TurboStart 900. I can say that I personally cycled my tank in four days with this product.

By the way, cloudy water does not mean the bottled bac products are working - bacterial blooms are generally caused by non-nitrifying heterotrophs, i.e. not the nitrifiers we are trying to establish during a cycle.

 

It takes a month or so to cycle a marine tank from scratch. Good aeration (high oxygen) helps a lot too.

 

Thanks everyone!

Update: tested today and...

Ammonia - still 2ppm
Nitrite - still 0ppm
Nitrate - 20ppm!

Clearly something has happened and some ammonia has converted to nitrite which has fully converted to nitrate.
However now my question is why is Ammonia still showing up as 2ppm when some of it we know for a fact has been consumed by bacteria and converted to Nitrate?
Nitrate showing at a decent 20ppm so surely there should have been at least a little drop in ammonia??

Should I dose more a drop or two of ammonia so I don't starve the bacteria and stall the cycle?

The bacteria in a bottle products don't work every time. Dr. Tim's did not work for me, but works for some. Many new fishkeepers come here with the same issue you are having.

I would do a fish-in cycle or a fishless without the bacteria bottles. Fish in is much more work. It takes weeks, not days to cycle a tank.

I would use the time to plan and refine my new awesome tank.

By the way, what fish do you plan to keep?

Have my heart set on a couple of little clowns and then much further down the line will add corals

 

Thanks everyone!

Update: tested today and...

Ammonia - still 2ppm
Nitrite - still 0ppm
Nitrate - 20ppm!

Clearly something has happened and some ammonia has converted to nitrite which has fully converted to nitrate.
However now my question is why is Ammonia still showing up as 2ppm when some of it we know for a fact has been consumed by bacteria and converted to Nitrate?
Nitrate showing at a decent 20ppm so surely there should have been at least a little drop in ammonia??

You are correct, it takes about 5.5ppm ammonia to convert to 20ppm nitrate. So you would have seen something by now. Was nitrate at zero to begin with?

Should I dose more a drop or two of ammonia so I don't starve the bacteria and stall the cycle?

Well if ammonia is present then they already have what they need. By the way, nitrifiers go for weeks to months ammonia-starved before they even start to be affected materially, so generally you don't ever have to worry about them dying off due to starvation.

 

Yes before I dosed anything I checked and everything was 0ppm. Then I dosed ammonia and checked again and ammonia was 2ppm and everything else 0ppm.
Very odd. I don't see how nitrate can increase without ammonia dropping.


Ah ok, I will leave off adding any extra ammonia for now..

 

Wait for ammonia to drop. What's your pH? In saltwater aquarium nitrites are harmless. Once your tank process 2ppm ammonia in 24 hrs it's safe to add a fish or two. Will take about 2 months to fully finish

 

Wait for ammonia to drop. What's your pH? In saltwater aquarium nitrites are harmless. Once your tank process 2ppm ammonia in 24 hrs it's safe to add a fish or two. Will take about 2 months to fully finish

Slight correction, nitrite is not lethal until it reaches concentrations north of 100ppm, probably far more than that. But it is harmful if there is prolonged exposure at much lower concentrations. For ocellaris clownfish, this is 25ppm. Here's the relevant study: Ammonia and nitrite toxicity to false clownfish Amphiprion ocellaris - Aquaculture International. Moderators, I urge you guys to not remove this link - while the article is behind a paywall, the abstract is informative enough and is beneficial to have.

 

Slight correction, nitrite is not lethal until it reaches concentrations north of 100ppm, probably far more than that. But it is harmful if there is prolonged exposure at much lower concentrations. For ocellaris clownfish, this is 25ppm. Here's the relevant study: Ammonia and nitrite toxicity to false clownfish Amphiprion ocellaris - Aquaculture International. Moderators, I urge you guys to not remove this link - while the article is behind a paywall, the abstract is informative enough and is beneficial to have.

Nice to know. I know when I cycled my saltwater aquarium I got ammonia to drop and then added a clownfish. That's a new one to me. Karen new things all the time.

 

Nice to know. I know when I cycled my saltwater aquarium I got ammonia to drop and then added a clownfish. That's a new one to me. Karen new things all the time.

Yeah. To be fair, it is not exactly always going to be the case whereby the live stock would be subjected to 25+ppm nitrite as I'd say a lot of the cases I have seen nitrite drops below 25ppm fast enough to not cause long term issues. But it is a possibility, especially with aquariums that have less biomedia (live rock) or just other issues that may prevent nitrite oxidizers to grow rapidly enough.

 

Hi there. You don't need to start all over again. I would suggest trying either FritzZyme TurboStart 900, its less concentrated version FritzZyme 9, or Bio-Spira. I cannot link links to other forums, but there has been a thorough study done elsewhere by a member, followed by follow-up studies by other members, to point towards these three products working best, far better than other products. As in they work really well.

Dr. Tim's One and Only and Stability are both very hit or miss, the former in fact I have seen only one post saying it worked over like 200 posts or so by now. It used to be the hobby default, but not anymore. People are moving away from it. This is especially given it is easier for bottled bac to work for marine aquariums, simply because a lot of the bottled bac products contain nitrifiers that are adapted to higher pH, and marine tanks of course would naturally have higher pH (whereas a lot of freshwater tanks can have a lower pH (<7) which can cause the bottled bac products to not work). So when about two or so years ago reports of Dr. Tim's stopping to work started surfacing, it was very disappointing.

My recommendation is to use FritzZyme TurboStart 900. I can say that I personally cycled my tank in four days with this product.

By the way, cloudy water does not mean the bottled bac products are working - bacterial blooms are generally caused by non-nitrifying heterotrophs, i.e. not the nitrifiers we are trying to establish during a cycle.

i should switch back to FritzZyme. this is harder to get in my area. now adding stabilit when even i change water but i think FritzZyme is better.water seems clearer when i use FritzZyme

 

i should switch back to FritzZyme. this is harder to get in my area. now adding stabilit when even i change water but i think FritzZyme is better.water seems clearer when i use FritzZyme

There can be a likely explanation for that. One thing that is often misunderstood is the nature of bacterial blooms. They are often comprised of non-nitrifying heterotrophs, i.e. not the microorganisms we actually want (to establish while cycling).

Fritz contains solely nitrifiers, which adhere to surfaces, and grow and multiple there.

In contrast, products like Seachem Stability contains both nitrifiers and non-nitrifying heterotrophs, the latter of which consumes organic matter to rapidly multiply, which is likely the source of bacterial blooms.

In the past I have used fish food, deli shrimps, etc., and even months later I still get bacterial blooms once in a while. In contrast, personally when I cycle tanks by just ammonia-dosing, I seem to always be able to avoid bacterial blooms. Which makes sense, since that forces the growth of the nitrifiers. Indeed, my current tank I could stir things up crazily, or even now introduce a lot of organic matter, but the nitrifiers have been established to a level where they can outcompete the heterotrophs for ammonia.

 

There can be a likely explanation for that. One thing that is often misunderstood is the nature of bacterial blooms. They are often comprised of non-nitrifying heterotrophs, i.e. not the microorganisms we actually want (to establish while cycling).

Fritz contains solely nitrifiers, which adhere to surfaces, and grow and multiple there.

In contrast, products like Seachem Stability contains both nitrifiers and non-nitrifying heterotrophs, the latter of which consumes organic matter to rapidly multiply, which is likely the source of bacterial blooms.

In the past I have used fish food, deli shrimps, etc., and even months later I still get bacterial blooms once in a while. In contrast, personally when I cycle tanks by just ammonia-dosing, I seem to always be able to avoid bacterial blooms. Which makes sense, since that forces the growth of the nitrifiers. Indeed, my current tank I could stir things up crazily, or even now introduce a lot of organic matter, but the nitrifiers have been established to a level where they can outcompete the heterotrophs for ammonia

meaning the slight cloudiness with stability is due to organic consumption? the reason for switching was fritz was not so popular here and also in terms of dosing, stability seems more economical.
anyway the last 2 times i got bacteria bloom ( water became cloudy that is) was due to trimming and removal of plants ad replanting. both instances i added stability and clarity. both cases the cloudiness went off after about 5 days and water was crystal clear again.

 

meaning the slight cloudiness with stability is due to organic consumption? the reason for switching was fritz was not so popular here and also in terms of dosing, stability seems more economical.
anyway the last 2 times i got bacteria bloom ( water became cloudy that is) was due to trimming and removal of plants ad replanting. both instances i added stability and clarity. both cases the cloudiness went off after about 5 days and water was crystal clear again.

Mmm, a lot of the time once an initial amount of organic substrate is depleted, the water goes back to normal as the bacteria starves. Generally there will also be other processes to handle this, i.e. microorganisms that consume the dead bacteria and/or degrade them, releasing nutrients that plants and such can (re-)use. It's also why a healthy ecosystem can be highly impactful, as these non-nitrifying heterotrophs are kept in check.

In other tanks it often happens in cycles, where the bacterial bloom happens, organic matter is depleted and the bacteria dies off, but then eventually provide food for the next generation of bacteria to bloom. It's a bit more complicated a process than that but that's the gist of it.

In a saltwater tank bacterial blooms are more frequent as corals and other sessile marine organisms can actually harbor a lot of microorganisms, and during periods of stress can release them en masse. Thus bacterial blooms can pretty readily occur in marine tanks when these microorganisms are expelled from these creatures for whatever reason.

 

A lot of factors to watch out for. lately weather hovers around 34-36 where i live, TDS is going up faster than usual. hot and thy poop more?

its all about balance. sometimes it better to do less and let tank balance itself.