New Angelfish Pair That Are Siblings?

  1. Corrie Williamson

    Corrie Williamson Member Member

    I have a breeding pair of angels, the female is the mother of the male in this pair. I also have 3 adult males all of whom are from different parents.

    I raised 1 clutch of angels, most of which I sold, however I did keep a few hoping that they would pair up with at least one of my males. Unfortunately no luck on that front yet, I use natural selection as I have had terrible luck forcing pairs, however I do believe I have a pair from amoungst the siblings.

    Is it safe to let them breed genetically speaking as they are siblings with parents whom are related, or should I seperate them and hope they choose different mates?
     




  2. bizaliz3

    bizaliz3 Fishlore Legend Member

    That's tough one.
    I have done a lot of reading on this and from what I have read, one or two generations of inbreeding isn't horrible.

    I went through this with my plecos. I called it line-breeding though. Not inbreeding. I started with putting a daughter with her father rather than siblings because I had read that parent back to child is better than siblings. I did end up breeding a pair of THEIR kids though...because I had goals.... So those two were siblings AND cousins at the same time. I think it was still early enough in the linebreeding that it still wasn't quite inbreeding yet. The kids of the siblings/cousins are very pretty and healthy. BUT...I will not go any further in my linebreeding. I will not breed a pair of their kids. I feel like that would be taking it too far.

    Although it makes me feel bad about all the people who are buying groups of these ones from me. Hoping to breed them.....uggg.

    Anyway, back to angels...I do have a pair of siblings that I am raising their babies. BUT...they have different dads. They have the same mom but different dads, so they are only half-siblings. I have never had a pair of siblings with the same parents pair up. I do have a son I just put with his mom...again, a line breeding attempt (to get albinos, his mom is albino so he should have recessive albino and they might make albinos) But again, I chose to do parent with child rather than siblings. He and his sister both have recessive albino, so I could have gotten albinos from him and his sister. But chose not to. It probably would have been fine though. For one generation. Just don't get out of control with it.

    Sorry that got long.
    I haven't done a whole lot of natural selection with my angels. I have been lucky and have forced like 18 pairs over the last few years. Only one time ever have the two not accepted each other. When you have tried to force pairs, do you put them alone? with no other angels?
     
  3. chromedome52

    chromedome52 Fishlore VIP Member

    The concern is not the same with fish as it is with mammals. Due to the number of siblings in the average spawn of most fish, the risk is minimal even multiple generations down the line. Research has been done on some African Cichlid species where they actually show a preference for a sibling rather than an unrelated fish. I've seen Angelfish lines that go 10-15 generations with no outside additions, and they are absolutely normal. If deformities show up, they were there before you started, and could just as easily show up in a cross with unrelated fish. A line that goes many generations without any genetic anomalies is a great thing, and should be encouraged, not avoided.
     
  4. bizaliz3

    bizaliz3 Fishlore Legend Member

    Good to know @chromedome52
    Sounds like I was being a little too overly cautious about it :)
     
  5. OP
    OP
    Corrie Williamson

    Corrie Williamson Member Member

    Thanks @chromedome52, that is really great news. I've only raised 1 partial clutch of 64 and a second where I was only able to save 3 (my fault totally not the parents) and none of them have had any reason to be culled. Some ended up injured but none were deformed in any way. This pair also spits out a high number of albinos so I love breeding them. In their last 2 clutches (i didnt save any of them) they had approximately 40% albino free swimming.

    Out of the 7 I kept from the original clutch it looks like 4 are males so getting a natural pair when I have so many males is fantastic. Sadly I will have to sell some of these guys off soon due to lack of space. I was just hoping to get a pair that would pair up with one of my current males to give us 2 genetic lines.
     
  6. OP
    OP
    Corrie Williamson

    Corrie Williamson Member Member

    Yes I've tried it with dither fish in the tank but no other angels and in a tank with just the pair and no other fish. I think I have some of the most tempermental angels ever and yet when we choose them we took the most docile angels in the tank.

    The only time one of my unpaired males was accepted by a female is when my breeding pair was in the main community tank with 2 other angels. The female from the pair chose to breed with her mate and my leopard angel at the same time. Problem is that shes in a natural pair and if either her or her mate (Her son) don't know where the other is they literally freak out. The only time that he won't let her near him is when he is tending to a clutch, then he absolutely refuses to allow her anywhere near him or the clutch. Hmmmm... wondering if I could put her and my leopard together for a spawn while her natural mate is tending to a clutch That gives me an idea when I have the space.

    Sorry for the ramble.