Neutral Regulator for 7.0 pH for Ranchu Goldfish

My well water comes out of the tap at 8.8 pH. The place I'm buying my Ranchu goldfish from recommend 7.0 which is what their water parameters are. I used Neutral Regulator to achieve a 7.0 pH & it worked perfectly at first, then 24 hours later the pH is back up to 8.8 pH. The only thing in this 36 gal tank is a little Guppy Grass plant. The tank is completely empty now in preparation for the Ranchu arrival tomorrow, but I'm worried if I dose the tank again, it will only be a temporary solution of getting that perfect pH level.
I know drastic pH swings are deadly for Fish. Is Seachem's Neutral Regulator something that needs to be dosed a few times over prior to it balancing out? Or will it yo-yo back & forth for 24-48 hours until it settles at 7.0

 

You most likely have a high kH so your pH isn’t easily changed. 8.8 is a bit high especially if you are shipping fish that are used to much lower. You can try using RO water. Drip acclimate your fish when you get him. Others may have better solutions

 

But RO water doesn’t have any of the bacteria in it that freshwater fish require, right?

like, I can’t use exclusively RO water for my 36 gal tank?

or should I just dose again with neutral regulator? It definitely shows my pH at 7.0 yesterday for like 4 hours & today it’s way back up

 

Reverse osmosis is a process that removes dissolved solids from water. There is no bacteria kept in the water. Bacteria that fish require I suppose would refer to beneficial bacteria that lives on surfaces (the filter media, substrate, glass, decorations) that perform nitrification in order to transform harmful ammonia to harmful nitrite and harmful nitrite to significantly less harmful nitrate which is then removed via water changes.

RO water will have TDS levels (total dissolved solids) much lower than out of the tap, much of the removed solids are minerals that contribute to water hardness (gH and kH) and pH. The way RO is used is with remineralization, it is not that it does not contain bacteria, because normal tap water also won't contain bacteria necessary for the fish to survive; it is that it does not contain minerals necessary for fishes' organs to function properly underwater. People either mix it with their tap to the desired hardness level, or use pure RO and remineralize with other products such as seachem equilibrium, this will also help to raise kH which acts as a pH buffer to prevent dangerous pH swings.

Dosing neutral regulator will not be a good option. Your kH is likely high, and you saw that it buffered back up. You would have to be constantly on top of dosing to keep a low pH, which is going to be extremely difficult, expensive, and dangerous as if you forgot a dose, the fish will likely die from an extreme pH swing.

I don't know if the goldies would be fine in your tap, it is a big difference from 7.0. My advice is RO, or get fish that are from similar water.

 

Sheesh. I’m in a dilemma here. The fish are arriving tomorrow. I just re-dosed my tank with the Neutral Regulator & water change but I fear that it’ll bounce back up by tomorrow

In which case I need 36 gal of RO water that has to be mineralized? Or find someone with lower pH tap water?

 

Sheesh. I’m in a dilemma here. The fish are arriving tomorrow. I just re-dosed my tank with the Neutral Regulator & water change but I fear that it’ll bounce back up by tomorrow

In which case I need 36 gal of RO water that has to be mineralized? Or find someone with lower pH tap water?

You’ll need to set up your own RO system for long term care otherwise it becomes very expensive very quickly. You need to do water changes weekly or more with goldfish

 

Is Seachem Equilibrium immediately effective? If I went out & got 36 gal of RO water, somehow, & dosed with Equilibrium would it be tank ready? My tank already cycled so how much water could I change out? Keep in mind, the tank has been empty for a week & the new Ranchu arrive tomorrow

 

Is Seachem Equilibrium immediately effective? If I went out & got 36 gal of RO water, somehow, & dosed with Equilibrium would it be tank ready? My tank already cycled so how much water could I change out? Keep in mind, the tank has been empty for a week & the new Ranchu arrive tomorrow

I’m sorry I can’t answer what is best to add I don’t use RO water but it would remineralize the water immediately . Hopefully someone else has more ideas

 

Dilute your water with RO water to lower the KH. Lower KH means your pH will already drop to 7.8, which is the CO2, pH, KH equilibrium. It will go down further thanks to biological activity. Probably around 7. And as I recall, this is what you are trying to achieve.

 

Yes.

so when I dilute with RO water, what/if anything should I be adding to the RO water in order to give it good minerals? Is Seachem Equilibrium the best option or is there anything else
How much do you think I should dilute? It’s a 36 gal tank. What % or how many Gallons should be RO vs Tap assuming my Tap is mid-high 8.2 pH

 

Dilute your water with RO water to lower the KH.

This. What's the KH of your tap water?

Halving your KH reduces the pH by 0.3
Halving it again, so reducing it to 25% of its original value, reduces pH by 0.6
To 12.5% reduces pH by 0.9

Basically what I would do is do an 80% water change with pure RO water and see where the pH lands.
From then on mix 20% tap water with 80% RO water for water changes. Nothing else added. Your tap water brings all the minerals needed.

Please be aware those are assumptions solely based on your current pH.

If you want an exact calculation, figure out the KH of your tap water and we can calculate the Tap:RO-ratio for you.

 

I’m on a Private Well. I have tested water coming out of multiple faucets & areas of my house & it ranges anywhere from 7.8 - 8.8 depending on where or when. It’s never consistent. At least with the API master test kit I’m using .

right now my pH in the tank is 7.6 after putting a double maximum dose of what’s recommended on Neutral Regulators bottle. I read online it can be harder to lower Well water due to how Hard it is.

fortunately there are no fish or wildlife or plants in my tank right now but I need to come up with a solution before my Ranchu goldfish show up tomorrow.

 

I’m on a Private Well. I have tested water coming out of multiple faucets & areas of my house & it ranges anywhere from 7.8 - 8.8 depending on where or when. It’s never consistent. At least with the API master test kit I’m using .

right now my pH in the tank is 7.6 after putting a double maximum dose of what’s recommended on Neutral Regulators bottle. I read online it can be harder to lower Well water due to how Hard it is.

fortunately there are no fish or wildlife or plants in my tank right now but I need to come up with a solution before my Ranchu goldfish show up tomorrow.

Yes it is because you most likely have high kH. You’ll have to find a way to cut your water with RO water there are systems you can set up

 

Since you mentioned you might be able to get some RO water tomorrow, here's what I would to:

- Go get 30gal of RO water
- Go get a KH test
- Test your KH
- Divide your KH by 6
- Divide 100 by the number you get
- That is how much % of well water you use, to get to a KH of 6. A KH of 6 should easily be in the pH 7.xx region

For example your KH is 30.
30/6 = 5
100/5 = 20
So you use 20% well water and 80% RO water.

For example your KH is 40
45/6 = 7,5
100/7,5 = 13,333%
So you use 13% well water and 87% RO water

Now since your tank is well water, the process would be:

For example you calculated you use 20% well water and 80% RO water.
Simply do an 80% water change and use RO water only.
You have a 36gal so I would guess roughly 33gal of water in it. So you would take 26.5gal out and fill it up with RO water.

Then invest in a RODI-system, it's cheaper on the long run. If you do a water change, use the values you calculated. For example with the 20%/80% calculation and a 50% water change (assuming there's 32gal of water in your tank for the easiness of calulation):

You swap out 16gal of water. Use 3.2gal of well water and 12.8gal of RODI water. Mixing before putting it in the tank is advisable.

That's how I would handle the situation.

 

The Alkalinity of my water is extremely high

I just tested my tanks water.
After my 2nd large dose of Seachem Neutral Regulator to my 8.2 pH tap water, here are its current readings.

I have a feeling bc it’s so Alkaline that pH will rise back up Tomorrow.

I plan on doing a large water change Tmw & putting in 80% RO & 20% Tap

 

I don't know what Seachem Neutral Regulator does. I can guess. But I do know you can do without.

Just a word of comfort. pH is a beast; it is not so easy to understand, control and therefore measure (although we think it is by taking out a sample at time X and voila, you have a single value). It is also not important to keep it at exact values or to avoid fluctuations at all costs.

pH gradients and fluctuations in natural bodies of water are oftentimes large. Fish swim through these gradients and fluctuations without any problem. Yes, there are differences in habitat and different tolerance-levels in species. And also, fish can choose to swim deeper in late afternoon or vice versa; unlike they are able to in our tanks. But the necessity of stable conditions is grossly exaggerated in our hobby (as, for example, high tech planted tank enthusiasts clearly show us).

I blame the money making industry for the exaggeration. Our hobby can do without almost any technology or chemicals. Due to their simplicity, both have a tendency towards creating stability.

Another reason are breeders. They have found that conditions A,G and Y works best for spawning and raising fry for a certain species. Conclusion: conditions A,G and Y are ideal for the species. Hobbyist blindly adopt this and communicate to each other that conditions A,G and Y are most ideal.

Thus many hobbyists observe spawning behavior year round, observe aggression between males year round, and the life span could well be reduced given stable conditions. A few studies on a few species have shown this. This doesn't mean that hobbyists are all wrong; but it does point out that stability is not right by definition.

Yes, Ranchu fish are man-made in tanks. But this doesn't imply by definition that all natural laws are no longer applicable to them. Unless somebody can show me otherwise.

So dilute the water, dim the lights, keep the water surface crystal clean, enjoy your fish and relax a bit.

 

Any news on the goldfish?

 

They are acclimating now. My tank is 36 gal for reference & my pH has been 8.3 or around that.

I ended up going out & purchasing 27 Gal of RODI water & tested it & it had a pH level of 6.4

I took out 27 Gal of my water & re-filled it with all the RO water.

my pH after adding 27 Gal of RO water is still 7.95
So diluting almost 80% - 85% of my Treated (with Prime) tap water that is usually just above a pH of 8

it only lowered my pH by like 0.1

I don’t understand.

should my tank if it’s almost 90% RO water with a pH level of 6.4 or 6.5 be brought down closer to 7
Is it Possible that over time, my pH will come down with the Ranchu goldfish living in there?

I understand a stable pH is more important than a perfect pH that fluctuates.

but I’m just trying to get ideal living conditions & no matter what I do my pH is just so High

 

Hey,

tap water pH doesn't matter, RO water pH doesn't matter.

Tap water because the pH will change after it sits for a while, RO water because it has no buffers at all so there's a huge fluctuation.
pH around 7.95 right after filling SHOULD be a KH around 7-9 ... I still say it's worth investing in a KH test. Your pH was 8.8 in the tank, right? So you brought it down by a solid 0.9 points. I would call that a great success and on point with the maths?

The pH will most likely sink a bit more as soon as the fish are in ... I would guess to around 7.6 - 7.7
Sounds fine enough to me.

 

I just finished a 3 hour acclimation on both Ranchu. I made sure to very gradually match up temperature & Water quality by drip application.

however, it’s been 30 minutes & they’re just bottom sitting. The tank has to be cycled because I’ve had this tank up & running previously stocked for a month & was consistently getting 0- ammonia 0 nitrites & low amounts of Nitrates so I knew it had cycled.

is it possible the Tank un-cycled in the week between having no fish to adding these Ranchu?

my only worry is that I had to fill the tank with like 85% RO water today & 15% tap due to my extremely high levels of pH.

the pH is still 7.9 & I know these Ranchu were accustomed to 7.2 but I’m hoping my pH goes down naturally
I’m going to be so disappointed if my water quality still isn’t what it needs to be.

I went through this process a few months ago & lost 2 other Ranchu goldfish bc I put them in before the tank finished cycling & before I realized my pH was almost 9.
I never used to even test for pH I was only doing Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates.

but once I learned my lesson that time around I thought I did everything necessary for a good living situation for these particular Ranchu

 

I just finished a 3 hour acclimation on both Ranchu. I made sure to very gradually match up temperature & Water quality by drip application.

however, it’s been 30 minutes & they’re just bottom sitting. The tank has to be cycled because I’ve had this tank up & running previously stocked for a month & was consistently getting 0- ammonia 0 nitrites & low amounts of Nitrates so I knew it had cycled.

is it possible the Tank un-cycled in the week between having no fish to adding these Ranchu?

my only worry is that I had to fill the tank with like 85% RO water today & 15% tap due to my extremely high levels of pH.

the pH is still 7.9 & I know these Ranchu were accustomed to 7.2 but I’m hoping my pH goes down naturally
I’m going to be so disappointed if my water quality still isn’t what it needs to be.

I went through this process a few months ago & lost 2 other Ranchu goldfish bc I put them in before the tank finished cycling & before I realized my pH was almost 9.
I never used to even test for pH I was only doing Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates.

but once I learned my lesson that time around I thought I did everything necessary for a good living situation for these particular Ranchu

Give it some and see if they recover from the trip stress. How long these guys were in shipment for? Drip Acclimation can be stressful for shipped fish. The ammonia buildup in the bag water starts being a problem as the PH rises once the bag is open. So if they were stuck in that water for 3 hrs...they might have been a little stressed along with the shipping. Hoping to see some pics of your new fishy friends soon.

 

They were shipped yesterday at 2pm & arrived this morning at 9:30am

pretty short commute but there were 2 Ranchu in one bag so it was cloudy & full of debris.

I’ll attach a photo here:

the larger Gold one was darting around erratically for a few seconds. Yikes

 

bag so it was cloudy & full of debris

Anything over 12 hr shipping can get dicey in such a small body of water. Unless they fasted the fish a few days prior. They are super cute. Probably best to black everything out now if possible and let them rest.

 

Anything over 12 hr shipping can get dicey in such a small body of water. Unless they fasted the fish a few days prior. They are super cute. Probably best to black everything out now if possible and let them rest.

I just shut down all lights in the room too.

I’m hoping for the best. Do you typically need to Treat RO water with Prime conditioner or Dechlorinators or anything?

And will mixing RO with just 10% Tap water provide enough Minerals or whatever is needed that the RO doesn’t supply, or is that bacteria in the filter/media on tank already?

Last Question, Will the pH sitting in the tank eventually go down over time after adding the fish?

 

I think the basics have been said. Focus on KH of 5 +/-2 or 3 and the pH will go down and fluctuate a little around pH 7.0-7.5. Trying to do things with the intention to establish a specific pH value, is like rolling a very large boulder on top of a mountain.

You don't need to treat RO water with anything, because there is nothing in it.
Minerals from the well + a rich diet will benefit your fish.

"Last Question, Will the pH sitting in the tank eventually go down over time after adding the fish?"

See everything that has been said about KH. KH and pH are very much related.

+++++++++++++

pH refers to free hydrogen ions, KH to (bi)carbonates that bind to those free hydrogen ions. Free hydrogen ions lower pH, unless there are (bi)carbonates in your well water, that "capture" the hydrogen ions, preventing pH to go down.

Lower the (bi)carbonates allows the pH to go down. To what extent, depends on other processes. Most relevant for aquarium:
- CO2 concentration in the water (a little CO2 in water reacts with water, which frees up hydrogen ions -> lower pH)
- biological activity (multiple processes but with the same outcome: free hydrogen ions)

Because both fluctuate, pH always fluctuates a little.

++++++++++++++

Forget pH, think KH.

Good luck.

 

Photos…Update. Day 1, they seem to be doing well. Other than the occasional Darting around or sprinting but it’s every once & a while.

Any idea if that could be an in indication of water parameter being off?

 

The large Golden Ranchu is still hovering & ends up going sideways, almost like he’s off balance. Swims normal, but once he stops moving he kinda falls over or Leans over to his left side

I’m hoping it’s not a bladder problem but I’m just paranoid about making sure my water parameters are in check.

he’s pretty large, so maybe he just doesn’t balance the best? Or is the Stress of new tank, shipment a culprit?

 

Hey,

I'd test nitrites and ammonia to rule that out.

 

Nitrites are 0

ammonia is 0.50
The ammonia , nitrites, nitrates have all been great & practically 0

I added the 2 Ranchu yesterday & today the ammonia jumped to 0.50

 

No plants, no substrate ... kind of to be expected, that's why I advised measuring...
.5 ammonia is .03 ammonium at pH 8, that's already critical.
I would not really add a bit(!) of the neutral regulator to keep the pH a bit lower. Water change as soon as possible. A pH of 7.6 would already help a lot right now.

 

Should I add Seachem Prime to remove ammonia in addition to a partial water change

 

Definitely yes if you have some RO water left. Don't use pure tap water or your pH might spike up, which will in turn transform more ammonia into toxic ammonium.

 

Ok

my brother lives down the road & he is on City Water with a pH of 7.5

I was going to run over there & fill up 10-15 gallons with my buckets & treat that water with Seachem prime & perform a 20% water change
After I do that 20% water change

should I additionally dose the entire tank with Seachem prime for 36 gallons? The entire tank is 36 Gal.

I just don’t want to accidentally over dose the tank with Prime chemicals

 

Ok

my brother lives down the road & he is on City Water with a pH of 7.5

I was going to run over there & fill up 10-15 gallons with my buckets & treat that water with Seachem prime & perform a 20% water change
After I do that 20% water change

should I additionally dose the entire tank with Seachem prime for 36 gallons? The entire tank is 36 Gal.

I just don’t want to accidentally over dose the tank with Prime chemicals

Here's what I suggest. I don't know when was the last time you dosed or did a WC prior to the fish arriving but what you need to do right now is dose prime in your tank to detoxify the NH3 currently to protect them. Then you can go to your brothers and get the water. We can take it from there when you get back. Yes dose for the entire tank in case it starts creeping up more. Hopefully you have some aeration going.

 

Here's what I suggest. I don't know when was the last time you dosed or did a WC prior to the fish arriving but what you need to do right now is dose prime in your tank to detoxify the NH3 currently to protect them. Then you can go to your brothers and get the water. We can take it from there when you get back. Yes dose for the entire tank in case it starts creeping up more. Hopefully you have some aeration going.

Ok. So dose for 36 gallons of recommended Seachem prime? A whole tank dose?
That is 3.6 ML
is this normal for Ammonia to spike upon adding 2 Ranchu goldfish that are approximately 3-4 inches? I haven’t fed them yet & it doesn’t look like they’ve pooped much since acclimating yesterday.
I just fully doses the tank with Seachem Prime to get the Ammonia under control.

nitrites are 0

nitrates are right around 10ppm

Which is good news that means the tank is definitely still cycled if I’m getting some level of Nitrates, right?
It’s surprising how fast (not even 24 hours) after adding these fish the ammonia shot up from 0 to 1.0ppm & Nitrates were at 0 and now at 10

this is all new water as of 2 days ago
Nitrate level

 

Ok. So dose for 36 gallons of recommended Seachem prime? A whole tank dose?
That is 3.6 ML
is this normal for Ammonia to spike upon adding 2 Ranchu goldfish that are approximately 3-4 inches? I haven’t fed them yet & it doesn’t look like they’ve pooped much since acclimating yesterday.
I just fully doses the tank with Seachem Prime to get the Ammonia under control.

nitrites are 0

nitrates are right around 10ppm

Which is good news that means the tank is definitely still cycled if I’m getting some level of Nitrates, right?
It’s surprising how fast (not even 24 hours) after adding these fish the ammonia shot up from 0 to 1.0ppm & Nitrates were at 0 and now at 10

this is all new water as of 2 days ago
Nitrate level

without getting into too much detail, ammonia just doesn't come from poop. Much of it also gets expelled from their gills. A spike is not uncommon however we have no idea how the tank was "cycled" previously.

 

Ok.

my 2 new Ranchu seemed
To be doing really good the first half of the day. Now it looks like the spiked ammonia might be affecting them. I fully dosed the tank with Seachem Prime, actually a little more than what it recommended.

my nitrites are 0, minimal nitrates, and pH is down to 7.40

I have an ammonia specific filter pad in my Hang on back filter, should I swap it out with a new one? It’s been on there for 3-4 weeks. Or could that contain beneficial bacteria that is good for the tank?
It’s Zoe officially designed to lower Ammonia levels

my tank did a fish in cycle for 4 weeks prior to adding these big guys

 

actually a little more than what it recommended

Try to avoid dosing more than necessary. A little extra ok but don't go overboard. Excess prime/conditioner can deplete O2 levels in tank if it has nothing to bind to.

I have an ammonia specific filter pad in my Hang on back filter, should I swap it out with a new one? It’s been on there for 3-4 weeks. Or could that contain beneficial bacteria that is good for the tank?
It’s Zoe officially designed to lower Ammonia levels

Are you referring to Zeolite? If so, it's most likely not doing anything anymore since that gets exhausted like after a month. I don't know what else you have in your HOB so I cannot comment whether to take it out or not. In any case, you are detoxifying the ammonia already for up to 24 hrs with prime so no urgency to use the Zeo atm.

my tank did a fish in cycle for 4 weeks prior to adding these big guys

if your bioload prior was smaller than what you have now (like if you had smaller fishes), then your current setup will need to catch up with the current bioload.

Also, once you get back from your brother in getting the water.... there's gonna be a couple of ways for you to handle this. Perform the WC immediately or save it for emergency and let the current ammonia be worked on and continue to use your conditioner to keep the toxins in check while its being converted. This also doesn't seem sustainable constantly going to your brother whenever you require a big WC, unless you continue to buy RO water or setup a RO system. Then again, it's pretty convenient that he's down the road. Hopefully you have a plan going forward.

 

Ok. I won't go crazy with the Prime Conditioner.

The ammonia pad was just some knock-off brand Ammonia pad that goes in the media chamber that's supposed to lower/remove toxic levels that I purchased from the local fish store. I don't know if it actually works, it's just been in my media chamber for 3-4 weeks & Since I'm dealing with high ammonia, I figured it's worth a shot changing that out? or maybe just leave it as-is considering it could be harboring beneficial bacteria since my tank was most likely just "lightly cycled" (if that is such a thing)

I currently have 0 Nitrites. After dosing my Prime Conditioner it's already working & the Ammonia is down to 0.27-0.30 ppm but my Nitrates I still can't tell if they're at 5-10 or 0 because the shade of color is so faint. I tested my Tap water next to my tank water & they looked very similar.

Now, I am just a little worried if my tank didn't in fact fully complete it's cycle. How else can I tell if my tank is fully cycled? The fish seem to be doing OK, but my Ammonia is High, Nitrites are 0, and Nitrates look minimal.

I do recall 3 weeks ago my Nitrites were extremely high as were my Nitrates, so I know it was cycling, I just removed all living fish from the tank for a week before these guys went in.

 

Prime doesn't remove ammonia. It only detoxifies it making it not harmful for fish. So it sounds like the tank is working on converting it but then again IDK if your ammonia pad is still active so it's harder to gage. You'll know when your tank is fully cycled when you have zero'd out everything except for nitrates under normal conditions.

 

If I'm reading Ammonia at 0.25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0? or 5? I can't tell.

Since I just added 2 big ranchu goldfish, how long should it take before I'm seeing higher nitrate levels, to verify my tank is cycled?
Now I am worried my tank isn't cycled. If it's Not cycled, that would mean I'm only getting levels of Ammonia?

But if it IS cycled, I should see Nitrates & Ammonia, since it's such a jump in bio-load going from 0 fish to 2 ranchu

 

Prime doesn't remove ammonia. It only detoxifies it making it not harmful for fish. So it sounds like the tank is working on converting it but then again IDK if your ammonia pad is still active so it's harder to gage. You'll know when your tank is fully cycled when you have zero'd out everything except for nitrates under normal conditions.

Do you recommend I use Fritz TurboStart with my current tank situation? I have the 2 larger Ranchu in there and the Ammonia jumped the day I added them (2 days ago). Nitrites still read 0, and Nitrates look pretty minimal, I still can't tell if it's at 5 - 10ppm or 0 due to the light yellow/orange tint.

 

Do you recommend I use Fritz TurboStart with my current tank situation? I have the 2 larger Ranchu in there and the Ammonia jumped the day I added them (2 days ago). Nitrites still read 0, and Nitrates look pretty minimal, I still can't tell if it's at 5 - 10ppm or 0 due to the light yellow/orange tint.

if you have the bottled bacteria on hand then you can use it. Again just make sure you have plenty of Oxygen in the tank as that stuff will also consume oxygen. But have you checked your readings today? You may not need it.