Neon Tetras being Aggressive-ish

Hey guys,
So yesterday one of my younger Neon Tetras in my 10 gallon planted tank passed away (it got stuck in the filter intake, I got a sponge to prevent further instances) and now I'm only down to 4 neon tetras. Before the other one passed for a few days I noticed, that one of them would occasionally chase some of the other school around. As of now after the death of the 5th neon tetras, they will all school, then move to more of a shoal, then sometimes they'll just start chasing each other, then go back to socialization. Today I also introduced some Juvenile Celestial Pearl Danios (5 of them) and they seem to do somewhat fine with them but the neons will also rarely but it does happend, chase off one of the CPD'S. Are my Neon Tetras just establishing a nipping order (I got them about 1-1 1/2 weeks ago) also I am planning on getting one more neon tetra. My tank paramaters are, 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 10-15 Nitrates.

 

Temp?

 

Temp?

I'd say 75-76.5 F

 

I'd get at least two more instead of just one. By the way, it's unlikely that the one died because of getting stuck in the filter intake. It probably died, or at least got weak, and then was sucked up against the intake.

 

I'd get at least two more instead of just one. By the way, it's unlikely that the one died because of getting stuck in the filter intake. It probably died, or at least got weak, and then was sucked up against the intake.

Why do you think it died? It showed no behaviors of diesease (physically and behaviorally)? It was the smallest in the tank and maybe it got bullied (since it was visually smaller then the others)?. So to confirm you would say that at least two more neons would solve the problem?
I've read some articles that have said that they are regular fin nippers and have a nipping order and occasionally nip at the other tank mates. I'm still going to plan on getting two more neon tetras, as more would increase bioload and well...a-m-m-o-n-n-i-a. I'm running a soon to be modified HOB filter and a Sponge Filter. I do 30%-40% water changes every week. I was using quick Start but and stress coat, but I'm going to switch over to SeaChem, Prime, Equilibrium, and continue using SeaChem Stability

 

I don't know why it died. Though decades ago they were reported to be very hardy, neon tetras have become so popular, and so many have been reproduced using poor genetics, that they seem to be delicate now. I know I struggled with them, and have seen many reports here of the same thing happening to other people.

I'm not saying at all that adding two more will solve the problem, though it might. All tetras (as far as I know) are shoaling fish, and more comfortable in large groups. Having too few can add stress, which makes them more susceptible to disease and parasites. I recommended adding two because they're in a small tank. If they were in a larger tank I'd have recommended more.

Between my 40 gallon breeder tank and the 65 I currently have four varieties of tetra (serpae, pristella, black neon, and lemon). The shoals range from 10 to around 20 of each (the lemons move around a lot, and the tank is fairly heavily planted, so they're hard to count).

Pretty much all tetras can be fin nippers, but if they have enough of their own species to focus their attention on, and to spread aggression within the group, it's rarely a problem.

 

The behaviour of the tetras is normal. All tetras are little piranha among each other. The weakest die off. That's the way it goes, especially in smaller groups in smaller tanks. Fighting and chasing leads to stress, stress leads to diseases and parasites and those lead to death. Even if you had noticed any signs of sickness, the only longterm solution is optimizing conditions. It's irrelevant how many tetras you add, they will still make out the pecking order and with bad general conditions the weakest will die off again.

I've read some articles that have said that they are regular fin nippers and have a nipping order and occasionally nip at the other tank mates. I'm still going to plan on getting two more neon tetras, as more would increase bioload and well...a-m-m-o-n-n-i-a. I'm running a soon to be modified HOB filter and a Sponge Filter. I do 30%-40% water changes every week. I was using quick Start but and stress coat, but I'm going to switch over to SeaChem, Prime, Equilibrium, and continue using SeaChem Stability

If your tank is cycled you don't have to be afraid of ammonia anymore if you only add a small number of fish. With two cycled filters you are safe from that. To have an actually effective dilution during waterchanges do 50% a week. Anything below only leads to slower buildup of waste products (not only nitrogen compounds).

You can just use Prime, provided your water source has chlorine/chloramine. If not it's not necessary.
Stability and other bottled bacteria are just starters to colonize the filters, as soon as those are established/cycled, you don't need to chugg that in anymore. In fact it only saves 1 week during fishless cycling, when used in the first week. I used one 100ml bottle from a german company to start not only one, but 4 tanks.
And for equilibrium: Why? Your fish are from softwater environments, why raising hardness and pH? Another bottle you don't have to buy.

 

As others have pointed out, pretty much all tetras need to be living in a group to feel secure. 5-6 is the very minimum, but I've personally had a lot more success with 8-10 individual per species. All species of tetra that I've kept have shown totally different behaviour once I upgraded their numbers. I've kept black neons, false neons, glowlights, rummy noses and cardinals, and it seems to be the same story for all of them. They all like numbers.

When I first got black neons, I got 8 of them. They tightly schooled, waited their turn to eat and one died. When I got 3 more to upgrade their numbers to 10, it was like I'd pressed a switch; they stopped schooling, they became more confident, they actively came to the surface to eat and competed with the guppies for food, and no more died. The more of them there are, the happier they are as long as the tank can physically support the number of them.

As for bioload, as long as your tank isn't already overstocked, adding 4 more neons will not overload the cycle; tetras don't produce that much waste individually.

 

The behaviour of the tetras is normal. All tetras are little piranha among each other. The weakest die off. That's the way it goes, especially in smaller groups in smaller tanks. Fighting and chasing leads to stress, stress leads to diseases and parasites and those lead to death. Even if you had noticed any signs of sickness, the only longterm solution is optimizing conditions. It's irrelevant how many tetras you add, they will still make out the pecking order and with bad general conditions the weakest will die off again.



If your tank is cycled you don't have to be afraid of ammonia anymore if you only add a small number of fish. With two cycled filters you are safe from that. To have an actually effective dilution during waterchanges do 50% a week. Anything below only leads to slower buildup of waste products (not only nitrogen compounds).

You can just use Prime, provided your water source has chlorine/chloramine. If not it's not necessary.
Stability and other bottled bacteria are just starters to colonize the filters, as soon as those are established/cycled, you don't need to chugg that in anymore. In fact it only saves 1 week during fishless cycling, when used in the first week. I used one 100ml bottle from a german company to start not only one, but 4 tanks.
And for equilibrium: Why? Your fish are from softwater environments, why raising hardness and pH? Another bottle you don't have to buy.

My bad thank didn't mean to put equilibrium. Thanks for the information. Yeah I knew that Neons had a pecking order but I didn't know that they were fiesty little things when it came to there school.

As others have pointed out, pretty much all tetras need to be living in a group to feel secure. 5-6 is the very minimum, but I've personally had a lot more success with 8-10 individual per species. All species of tetra that I've kept have shown totally different behaviour once I upgraded their numbers. I've kept black neons, false neons, glowlights, rummy noses and cardinals, and it seems to be the same story for all of them. They all like numbers.

When I first got black neons, I got 8 of them. They tightly schooled, waited their turn to eat and one died. When I got 3 more to upgrade their numbers to 10, it was like I'd pressed a switch; they stopped schooling, they became more confident, they actively came to the surface to eat and competed with the guppies for food, and no more died. The more of them there are, the happier they are as long as the tank can physically support the number of them.

As for bioload, as long as your tank isn't already overstocked, adding 4 more neons will not overload the cycle; tetras don't produce that much waste individually.

I also have some rescued (3) Cory's in there so they do add to the bioload quite a bit. As for adding more Neon Tetras I think it will work by adding two, because even when there was 5 they all didn't school much and they were very attentive with food

 

Having a bigger tank where the bullied one can hide helps a lot too.

 

UPDATE: So it's the next day and honestly it kinda seems like fish harmony. Not much chasing by the neons anymore and there definitely not hurting my CPD'S I am still going to add two more neons. I'm pretty sure there establishing a pecking order. Also I may have a 3:1 male to female ratio which well is not good. I'll try hard to get more females. As of right now it's almost feeding time (Frozen Brine Shrimp and Hikari Sinkers)

 

UPDATE: So it's the next day and honestly it kinda seems like fish harmony. Not much chasing by the neons anymore and there definitely not hurting my CPD'S I am still going to add two more neons. I'm pretty sure there establishing a pecking order. Also I may have a 3:1 male to female ratio which well is not good. I'll try hard to get more females. As of right now it's almost feeding time (Frozen Brine Shrimp and Hikari Sinkers)

Actually, I think that's a good sex ratio because I'm pretty sure the females are the alphas in tetra land, them being bigger and all. Plus, all the nipping I've seen happen with my cardinals tends to be between the bigger ones that are 'probably' females. In all honesty I don't think it matters too much, any nipping in a sufficiently sized group will be short-lived as they sort out their pecking order. The sex ratio only really matters when you're breeding them (roughly 1:1 is the best for most tetras from what I've read), and I doubt you'll be attempting that anytime soon.

Honestly, I would still suggest that you add 4 more to make a group of 8 (which would also account for any losses that could occur). I believe the neons would be better off for it. But it's your tank.

 

As m

Actually, I think that's a good sex ratio because I'm pretty sure the females are the alphas in tetra land, them being bigger and all. Plus, all the nipping I've seen happen with my cardinals tends to be between the bigger ones that are 'probably' females. In all honesty I don't think it matters too much, any nipping in a sufficiently sized group will be short-lived as they sort out their pecking order. The sex ratio only really matters when you're breeding them (roughly 1:1 is the best for most tetras from what I've read), and I doubt you'll be attempting that anytime soon.

Honestly, I would still suggest that you add 4 more to make a group of 8 (which would also account for any losses that could occur). I believe the neons would be better off for it. But it's your tank.

As much as I'd like to add four more I kinda can't. My tank capicity would be at 116% according to Aqadvisor. I can most likely add 2 which would put me at 108% and that's good with me. Should I get another CPD also to balance out the number? Also after continuing to observe these guys I think it's a 1:3 male to female ratio. The fattest one doesn't seem like it has dropsy or anything, but rather seems like she's getting ready to spawn. She keeps chasing off the other ones and that's possibly why.

 

As much as I'd like to add four more I kinda can't. My tank capicity would be at 116% according to Aqadvisor. I can most likely add 2 which would put me at 108% and that's good with me. Should I get another CPD also to balance out the number? Also after continuing to observe these guys I think it's a 1:3 male to female ratio. The fattest one doesn't seem like it has dropsy or anything, but rather seems like she's getting ready to spawn. She keeps chasing off the other ones and that's possibly why.

Sorry to break it to you, but AqAdvisor is a pest that doesn't take into account so many things, it's basically useless and IMO traps beginners into a false understanding of how stocking a tank works.
So the full stocking is 4 neons, 7 cpds and 3 cories? You can stock up the neons easily. BUT you ought to plan sizing up or rehoming the cories, which I find are really happy in bigger tanks with a bigger footprint.

 

Sorry to break it to you, but AqAdvisor is a pest that doesn't take into account so many things, it's basically useless and IMO traps beginners into a false understanding of how stocking a tank works.
So the full stocking is 4 neons, 7 cpds and 3 cories? You can stock up the neons easily. BUT you ought to plan sizing up or rehoming the cories, which I find are really happy in bigger tanks with a bigger footprint.

I'm planning on something with the cories but I really wanna keep these guys. I may move to a 20 G.

I'm planning on something with the cories but I really wanna keep these guys. I may move to a 20 G.

Also it's 6 CPD'S now (I got another) and 6 neon tetras (I got two more) they are acclimating as we speak

 

UPDATE: So I got two more neon tetras that I think are both Males. It looks like a 3:3 male to female ratio. I think one of the Neons are getting ready to spawn due to her belly size. She's chasing away all the other fish in her little area. Other then that the other neons are shoaling/schooling and the CPD'S are doing great as well. (I got another CPD as well)
6 Neon Tetras
6 Celestial Pearl Danios

 

I would not try sexing neon tetras. Even fully grown it's hard even for experts.

I'm planning on something with the cories but I really wanna keep these guys. I may move to a 20 G.

That's a good decision.

 

UPDATE: The tank culture has changed quite a bit! The CPD's really brought out the confidence of the neon tetras and all of them are swimming around quite nicely. little to none aggression between the Neon Tetras. The CPD's and the Neon tetras are also Shoaling/socializing with each other which is fantastic!