My Lfs Owner Has Some Very Strong & Interesting Opinions On Fishkeeping & I Don't Know What To Think

I did so much reading and prep work setting up my tank, I was all proud of myself thinking I'd done the right things, and the owner of a LFS basically contradicted a lot of what I believed to be true - a ton of which I learned here on Fishlore. In fact, I've never read of others who shared a few of his positions.

Below are the things he was adamant about that kind of surprised me. (There's probably more but these stuck out.) He's very agitated about "misinformation on the internet" and he wasn't rude to me - he was very patient while I shopped - but he was pretty dismissive of what I'd read.

1. Fishless cycling with ammonia doesn't work. It's successful 1 in 100 times, if that. The kind of bacteria produced by ammonia are different than what's produced from fish waste so I was guaranteed ammonia spikes and my cycling efforts were pointless. The process was thought up and perpetuated by lazy/cheap people.
   
2. People stress too much about overstocking. People just shouldn't worry. If the tank's good and they have swimming room the fish will be fine.
   
3. Every fish can deal with any water flow, even the highest current. They're genetically designed to swim hard and no filter is too much. [Mind you, I've got a 150 gph HOB and a 90 gph canister on a 10 gallon tank so it seemed a reasonable concern to me; I turned them down.]
   
4. Prefilters are never needed for small fish, even nanos. Only sick or unhappy fish get sucked into filters. It never happens to healthy, happy fish no matter their size or the filter strength. [I wrapped mesh around the intakes anyway. The fish are the size of my fingernail, plus I'd expect them to be "unhappy" after their move.]
   
5. pH variance (species ideal vs. tank) is a huge problem, even within a few tenths. No fish adapt well regardless of proper acclimation. Our pHs were within .5 of one another (mine's 7.4) and my GH and KH are 7 and 5 dGH, respectively; he said it was a 50/50 shot embers would die and that my water was too hard for most fish except maybe cichlids. He said I needed buffers.
   
6. Ich treatments of heat and salt never work. Only medication fixes it. The heat/salt method was also thought up by cheap people avoiding buying proper medication.

I can see the arguments for some of his positions but he took a very black-and-white approach so opposing opinions were just entirely wrong.

Thoughts? I'm a little befuddled. The guy seems to be good at what he does so do I need to rethink some things or just chalk this up to different people have different experiences and sometimes think their way is the only way?

 

I hate most of his opinions. Especially filter, and stocking

 

Sounds like most of his opinions are prompts to sell you more stuff

 

Sounds like most of his opinions are prompts to sell you more stuff

That was my initial reaction but he wasn't really pushing any products - he was just railing against people spreading bad information online. I walked out of the store in such a daze!

 

Yikes. Seems like he set in his ways and doesn't matter what others say even if they have 100% proof that it is correct information. I do put a bigger importance on what the fish health looks like though and do research elsewhere vs asking employees as its roulette on if theyre bias or if theyre open to new ideas as the hobby changes

 

A lot of older fish keepers have similar opinions (not an age thing, but those who have been keeping fish for a long time). However, as we learn more, things change. We know more now, and can do better by the fish.

 

Yea most of his opinions are way off. I have only ever done fish in cycle so I'm kinda old school on that. I feel the best treatment for ick is heat again old school. I have never had a problem with ph shock.

 

Lol.

1. Eh. I could believe that. Not 1 to 100 stat, but it's definitely not easy.
2. Eh. Within limit, kind of? 10 arrowanas in a 10 gallon tank is definitely a problem. But he's sort of on the right track in the sense that we do tend to understock and then worry about it, even if our parameters are fine.
3. No.
4. No.
5. What? I'm suddenly scared.
6. Eh. As a strong believer in medication, I can see why he'd think that. Ich is very likely to recur after the 'natural' remedy because it relies on waiting for ich to die and prevent it form reproducing in heat. If anything, it can build up resistance to heat treatments within the next generation of ich that did reproduce in heat.


We go on and we learn. Some of this seems very dated.



Edit:

"The heat/salt method was also thought up by cheap people avoiding buying proper medication."

Well... I mean, yeah... salt is listed as a cure for everything, in every guide, ever. Like, no, you cannot cure cancer with herbal tea, Susan. Sit down.

 

I somewhat agree with #4. Every thing else, the guy is wrong. Most of them I proved wrong in my own tank. I would avoid that LFS.

 

not gonna comment on an of his likes and dislikes but how long has he been around...how many fish have u got from him if any...other than that i've heard a lot of good advice on here as well as a lot of bad advice...so weather u get info from a book, the internet,a fishlore site or a fish store or even someone that has had fish for 50 years...u should take everything with a grain of salt and I think if you dom your basic research and test the waters so to speak and keep up on the basic maint, and parameter checks I think everyone could be successful in this amazingly rewarding hobby

 

See, I could get on board with some of his convictions to a degree but the absolute declaration that opposing viewpoints or experiences were wrong (or impossible) just seems illogical.

If cycling with ammonia NEVER works then why would anyone ever do it, and then suggest others do it as well? I'm sure it fails sometimes but he lost me with the 1 in 100 statistic. (And it didn't feel great being told I'd wasted the past five weeks...)

The pH/hardness position bothered me a lot too because there's no way everyone with an aquarium has those parameters absolutely perfect for their fish, especially in community tanks. If everyone's fish died when their ph was 7.3 instead of a documented ideal of 7.0 I think there'd be a lot more red flags everywhere. That's not to say some fish don't have less flexibility, but no fish?

The medication thing I understand. I'd probably treat with meds anyway if it was an option, but to say it's never worked for anyone seems odd.

And I estimate he's in his 30s or 40s, so it's not an old guy stuck to his ways kind of situation. He just feels very strongly about these things. And I will say - his fish look good. No dead fish floating around like I always see in PetCo. Clean tanks, thriving plants. It's just boggling my mind to think about some of his positions.

not gonna comment on an of his likes and dislikes but how long has he been around...how many fish have u got from him if any...

It was my first visit to his store. It's been there for at least eight years. I got the six embers from him.

I have no reason to think he's not taking great care of his fish. His approaches and beliefs may work perfectly for him and his situation. They just threw me a bit and make me think.

 

Just my .02. Everyone has a right to their opinion, right or wrong. Imagine if you went in there with very little or no knowledge. And your only guidance is this guy. $$$. Well he may not of tried to sell you anything right then. But he does plan on selling more stuff with his opinions on:

#1 ,#2, - sell more Fish, $$ "Cheap People" what a comment to a customer
#3 - sell more or stronger filters than needed ? $$
#4 - ?
#5 - sell more buffers $$
#6 - ? "Cheap People" what a comment to a customer

If you have a choice you might look into another LFS, No telling what he is doing or not doing with his stock.
It is ultimately your choice, to shop there or not.

 

I mean if it works for him that's great, but it doesn't apply to everyone, giving someone new this info can lead them to buy more to compensate for their tank not matching his. All my fish have handled fish in cycle, but I'm not just dropping them in without help they either get a bacteria boost or media to chug along with.

 

One thing that I'm learning about fish keeping is that opinions are vast and varying. Even on here, I see contradictory information daily.

1. One of my LFS told me there was no such thing as fish-in cycling. I just smiled and asked if he was willing to share some media so I could try it - he gave me water. Lol
2. I can understand why he's believe 2. People have opinions based on their experience. He likely has overstocked tanks without issue. We see that all the time on here - someone will say a tank is overstocked, the owner will retort that it's been that way for years - no issues.
4. Another LFS owner told me they quit making prefilters. Off topic a bit but...
5. Perhaps he hasn't done drip acclimations before? My pH swings a lot, so again, I may be an exception. Not that I think it's good, but they're surviving.

No matter who gives you a recommendation, research the answer, be humble and willing to learn but go with your gut too. What works for someone else may not work for you.

 

I can see how #2 works to a certain extent as I usually 'overstock' my tanks a bit, but there's certainly a limit. I agree with #4 though.

 

1. It is likely you will have a mini-cycle or an ammonia spike after adding fish. But it usually only lasts 2-3 days and a large water change almost always resolves it quickly. Your bacteria have to adjust, but they do that just fine. Fishless cycling does work, but isn't perfect.

Same thing goes with fish-in cycling though. If you add new fish to a tank, even with other fish in it, you may experience the exact same thing.

2. I agree that we do understock, to a point. We know and care more about the happiness of the fish these days, versus just stuffing as many fish as possible into a tank. The attitude of fishkeeping has shifted from decorations, to actual pet keeping. So this is why it has all changed.

3. Filter currents do matter. If you are raising Wild caught fish, they will be used to higher/stronger currents. 99% of captive bred fish are used to slower or softer currents.

4. This is kinda true. I mean you don't put a big giant hob into a fry tank and expect them all to survive. A prefilter sponge helps prevent some fish from ending up in the filter. But to me it's a survival of the fittest type thing.

5. Does he realize that buffers raise the pH and make your water harder? So if your water is too hard, according to him, then the buffer would make that problem even worse.

pH differences can harm your fish, they can go into osmotic shock. There shouldn't be a difference of more than 0.4. Longer acclimations may or may not help. But it gives you a better chance at survival with a longer acclimation period.

6. The heat treatment technically doesn't cure anything. It speeds up the life cycle and gets the ich to die naturally, only quicker. So hopefully they die before doing too much harm to the fish. Salt just helps promote healing. It's like using calamine lotion on chicken pox. Doesn't cure anything, but helps with the itching. Same premise. Ich meds work quicker and do kill the ich cysts.

 

He's sounds like the kind of hobbyist that takes any good idea and then exaggerates it until it doesn't make sense any more.

1. Ammonia isn't the most effective way of cycling a tank, but I would say it works a little bit more than 50% of the time, definitely not just 1% of the time. I don't like fish in cycles personally because it's so much easier and safer to just get some cycled media. Every LFS I've been to gives them out for free or sells them to you for a few dollars.
2. Yes we do. That one I have to kind of agree with him. As long as the fish enough have room to comfortably swim then we're fine. But we shouldn't tell beginners that because that because they might think that we're telling them to overstock on purpose.
3. Not true in the least. Many Bettas can't handle strong (or in some cases any) current, and Mollies need strong current. Many fish aren't "genetically designed" to handle strong current, because in the wild many fish's habitats have little to no current, and many fish's habitats have very strong current. Their is no one size fits all.
4. Bettas get their fins stuck in filters all the time, I even had an incident with a perfectly healthy male guppy. And what about babies? Sometimes I even have to turn down the flow on the sponge filter in the baby tank (until their is almost no flow) because I see babies get stuck to the sponge.
5. It depends. If the fish is wild caught then yes totally, but if it's tank raised then it can adapt to all sorts of PHs.
6. Heat doesn't work by itself but is super helpful with salt. Salt often works by itself though. Meds are only needed in severe cases, but I have never used Ich meds and I have never lost a fish to Ich.

 

I agree with 2, 4, and especially #6.

 

Maybe this point has been made, I'll admit I didn't read a majority of replies, but from a quick read of the op it strikes me as odd that a person who owns a store has so many strong convictions on things that would require you to make more purchases...

1/2: buy more fish
3/4:buy the biggest filter you can
5/6: buy medicine and chemicals

I'd be hesitant. I used to work in sales and this all sounds like a sales pitch masquerading as advice. Sure, some of what he says may have some truth to it but just seems fishy (no pun intended) to me.

(Edit: ya this point was definitely made before me haha)

 

1 in 100 must all be on this site.
You can overstock and just do more water changes up to a point, but his opinion is likely based off his experience with juveniles in his fish store.
There are few fish that can tolerate the 600gph+ filtration I have on my 20 gallon hillstream tanks. Even the fish that could handle it for a some time they couldn't eat and would burn energy very quickly.
PH isn't that big of deal, hardness is more relevant. Significant change leads to osmosis shock, not ph like Allie stated earlier.

 

These are seemed to be very biased but reasonable. But I don't agree with #1. And I don't think "lazy/cheap people" could think up that stuff.

 

I think he is biased in his opinions, they all just make him$. In our society everyones busy so they trust him. I'm sure his methods work, but who has unlimited money to spend.

 

A lot of older fish keepers have similar opinions (not an age thing, but those who have been keeping fish for a long time). However, as we learn more, things change. We know more now, and can do better by the fish.

This was my thought as well. This guy probably started in the 70s or earlier.

I'd like to address each of his points from my own experience or knowledge.

1. Fishless cycling with ammonia doesn't work. It's successful 1 in 100 times, if that. The kind of bacteria produced by ammonia are different than what's produced from fish waste so I was guaranteed ammonia spikes and my cycling efforts were pointless. The process was thought up and perpetuated by lazy/cheap people.

Just the sheer number of people who successfully use fishless cycling proves at least the 1 in 100 figure to be wrong. You may get ammonia spikes after adding fish, but they will dissipate quicker if you already have bacteria growing. Also, having done both methods successfully, fishless cycling is more work. Maybe not cheaper, but more work.

1. People stress too much about overstocking. People just shouldn't worry. If the tank's good and they have swimming room the fish will be fine.

I have had over-crowded tanks where I did not have fish dying left and right, but it looked unpleasant at best. I have also had over-stocked tanks where my parameters were stable and I didn't have fish dying. I also believe that you can't over-filter a tank, but you can have high filtration without a lot of current.

1. Every fish can deal with any water flow, even the highest current. They're genetically designed to swim hard and no filter is too much. [Mind you, I've got a 150 gph HOB and a 90 gph canister on a 10 gallon tank so it seemed a reasonable concern to me; I turned them down.]

No. A lot of smaller bodied fish, like tetras can handle high current because they live in rivers in the wild. Fish from lakes, and fish with big flowing fins like a betta will struggle in high current because they are not built for that.

1. Prefilters are never needed for small fish, even nanos. Only sick or unhappy fish get sucked into filters. It never happens to healthy, happy fish no matter their size or the filter strength. [I wrapped mesh around the intakes anyway. The fish are the size of my fingernail, plus I'd expect them to be "unhappy" after their move.]

Prefilters or strainers are needed for anything small enough to fit into the intake tube. I have lost fry to filters with no netting, and once I had a full grown cory swim up in intake tube that had no strainer and get his head cut off by the impeller. He was not sick, just dumb.

1. pH variance (species ideal vs. tank) is a huge problem, even within a few tenths. No fish adapt well regardless of proper acclimation. Our pHs were within .5 of one another (mine's 7.4) and my GH and KH are 7 and 5 dGH, respectively; he said it was a 50/50 shot embers would die and that my water was too hard for most fish except maybe cichlids. He said I needed buffers.

For wild caught fish this may be true. For captive breds like what are commonly available not so much. I keep Amazon community fish in PH in the very high 7s. They are happy and breeding.

1. Ich treatments of heat and salt never work. Only medication fixes it. The heat/salt method was also thought up by cheap people avoiding buying proper medication.

I don't know about salt. I know that above about 78 degrees or so the parasite can't reproduce, so heat will kill it off eventually, but may not save your fish. I have never had a tank with ich.



I do agree it sounds like he is playing the long game with a sales pitch here.

 

I did so much reading and prep work setting up my tank, I was all proud of myself thinking I'd done the right things, and the owner of a LFS basically contradicted a lot of what I believed to be true - a ton of which I learned here on Fishlore. In fact, I've never read of others who shared a few of his positions.

Below are the things he was adamant about that kind of surprised me. (There's probably more but these stuck out.) He's very agitated about "misinformation on the internet" and he wasn't rude to me - he was very patient while I shopped - but he was pretty dismissive of what I'd read.

1. Fishless cycling with ammonia doesn't work. It's successful 1 in 100 times, if that. The kind of bacteria produced by ammonia are different than what's produced from fish waste so I was guaranteed ammonia spikes and my cycling efforts were pointless. The process was thought up and perpetuated by lazy/cheap people.
   
2. People stress too much about overstocking. People just shouldn't worry. If the tank's good and they have swimming room the fish will be fine.
   
3. Every fish can deal with any water flow, even the highest current. They're genetically designed to swim hard and no filter is too much. [Mind you, I've got a 150 gph HOB and a 90 gph canister on a 10 gallon tank so it seemed a reasonable concern to me; I turned them down.]
   
4. Prefilters are never needed for small fish, even nanos. Only sick or unhappy fish get sucked into filters. It never happens to healthy, happy fish no matter their size or the filter strength. [I wrapped mesh around the intakes anyway. The fish are the size of my fingernail, plus I'd expect them to be "unhappy" after their move.]
   
5. pH variance (species ideal vs. tank) is a huge problem, even within a few tenths. No fish adapt well regardless of proper acclimation. Our pHs were within .5 of one another (mine's 7.4) and my GH and KH are 7 and 5 dGH, respectively; he said it was a 50/50 shot embers would die and that my water was too hard for most fish except maybe cichlids. He said I needed buffers.
   
6. Ich treatments of heat and salt never work. Only medication fixes it. The heat/salt method was also thought up by cheap people avoiding buying proper medication.

I can see the arguments for some of his positions but he took a very black-and-white approach so opposing opinions were just entirely wrong.

Thoughts? I'm a little befuddled. The guy seems to be good at what he does so do I need to rethink some things or just chalk this up to different people have different experiences and sometimes think their way is the only way?

Number 5 is the only one I can kind of agree with. To only a certain extent though. The rest I completely disagree with.

 

I do find that even the most knowledgeable lfs stores have strong opinions that may or may not be valid. I went in and relied on the store clerk to guide me in setup. I was sold a heater that was so strong it kept my tank at 86 degrees on the lowest setting. A filter that couldn't be used for my setup, way too much gravel, etc etc. That was in the dry goods section before fish. The second and 3 guy I got was great lots of help and fixed the problems and gave me really great advise on fish stocking. In the fishroom it's the same, some are really really good and some are really really bad and then there is all the ones in between.

All I can say is research research research. This site is great, lots of helpful information from fish lovers whom have tried their advice. Having said that I still do more research outside of this site lots of research.

 

Like this thread shows, you have a variety of strong mutually exclusive opinions even here at fishlore

 

Sounds like he shouldn't be working in a fish store, he should be working as the whitehouse press secretary.

 

Any advice regarding stocking levels is only of any relevance if you know what the correct stocking level is to start with. Anybody who advises you that you can have 1 inch of fish per gallon of water can be ignored, possibly the worse piece of advice continually spouted.

 

IMO prefilters are nice and I use them even with my larger fish. The reason is that it's another surface for bacteria to colonize, it adds more mechanical filtration, and whatever it catches outside, such as fish flakes, stays in the tank longer for the fish to actually eat it instead of getting sucked up into the filter (assuming filter is one when you are feeding flakes).