Mts/other Die-off, Thoughts?

HI all,

I'm having some problems with my 10 gal and was wondering if anybody had suggestions---as of two days ago, it was stocked with:

- 10 CPDs
- 1 nerite snail
- 4 blue velvet shrimp
- A large cohort of MTS
- (Lots of plants)

Die-offs:
- 3 CPDs
- at least 1 blue velvet shrimp (I have found out that having dark blue shrimp on black substrate is uh... difficult to see)
- Some huge number of MTS?! Like, upward of 20??

I also see another fish wobbling around and I'm worried he's going to be the next to go. This morning, I had to remove three dead fish, a dead shrimp, and several large MTS (I had to take out a bunch of MTS yesterday too), and I took parameters after:

pH: 7.4 (this matches with what my good LFS said about the water); tested with both high and normal range pH
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 5.0
temp: 81 (higher than desired: it's been super hot where I am for the last several days and my house gets up to 86 easily. Trying to keep it down by some cooler water changes)
ammonia, tank, after fish removal: 0.25?
ammonia, tap: 0?
ammonia, tank, a couple of hours after fish removal: 0?

One possible concern is ammonia, which I thought I read at 0.25 right after taking the fish out; I added some prime after this, and I suspect that the ammonia is a slight spike from those fish dying overnight. However, I'm comparing a new tank reading to a tap reading and I see no hint of green, and they are the same.

Me accidentally killing my CPDs (especially with the temps + new tank) or even some shrimp is less surprising, given the stressful events this tank has been through in the last week, but I have literally kept substrate in a jar for weeks (with whatever residual water is in) and the MTS just crawl right back out again. How can I have killed 20 MTS in two days??

---
If anybody wants extra background information on stressful stuff this tank has gone through in the last week:

1. I moved states, so I had to break down my tanks and put them in a truck (4-hour drive); the fish were kept in jars with me in the cabin of the uhaul. The 5-gal and its female betta are okay. The 10 gal is the one in trouble.

2. There were two original CPDs in the 10gal (originally more, but they slowly died off over the years and I've been thinking I was on the verge of moving overseas every six months for the last two years, so I didn't replace their friends) that made the trip in the uhaul with me

3. I set up the tank

4. I added friends (amazing LFS!!)

5. Tank started leaking (old seal) so I had to break it down AGAIN and got a new 10 gal, which I rinsed out. Old filter still on it.

6. I took this opportunity to clean the substrate (black sand)

7. Put them all back into the new tank

 

Hi, I'm not the best at diagnosing, but it almost sounds like some kind of heavy metal contaminant. That explains the MTS and shrimp dying, and the CPD deaths could be to that as well, or just a large shift in parameters. Also the strange swimming behavior could be to that as well. Try and pull up a water report for your new place and compare it to your old place, it should be available online according to each county.
Edit: the best remedy if you think this is the problem is to do a water change with store bought spring water, but slowly to not shock the inhabitants

 

Yeah, I was wondering about copper pipes or something, trying to look through my new lease information to see if there's anything about copper :\ though I am getting conflicting information on the internet about old vs. new copper piping.

 

Yeah, I was wondering about copper pipes or something, trying to look through my new lease information to see if there's anything about copper :\ though I am getting conflicting information on the internet about old vs. new copper piping.

Yeah, I know what you mean about that, and honestly I'm not sure which is better, lol.
I hope you figure it out, or someone more knowledgeable comes along. But the water report should have like copper, lead, and one other thing on it, for example mine just says it has less than 0.003%

 

I’m thinking heavy metal as well.

As for the ammonia, you have a new tank, cleaned substrate. That’s a ton of beneficial bacteria gone. I don’t know how heavily you cleaned the substrate, but the new tank does not have any BB established on the walls of the tank so maybe only having a seeded filter and a some seeded sand in the new tank threw it into a minI cycle? A huge change in water parameters can also shock the bacteria as well.

 

Hi, Viriam Karo!
Wow ... So many variables. And I'm sure there are some we'll never think of. You've got a list going, which sure helps. One thought, depending on what's actually going on, I'm not sure how confident I'd be that the same thing is not going on in the betta tank. Bettas are pretty hardy, considering; could be the same thing is going on and it's just not having/having as much of an impact on the betta, or at least not yet.

Which of these were new?

- 10 CPDs
- 1 snail
- 4
- A large cohort of
- (Lots of plants)

One possibility is something was brought in to the tank.

As you have indicated stress is a possibility as well as temp spike and change in the water. I am not well versed on MTS, but I believe they're pretty darned hardy. Maybe too many issues added up? And, also as indicated, you could've lost your bb.

Let me go back to the change in the water... basically you have 'unfamiliar' water and issues which could be coming from the water, so I might take a harder look at this if you rule other things out. (I'm assuming proper acclimation.) A tap water report will give you a starting point, but you need the water out of your tap tested. Yes, it will be different than at the water plant. I'm not talking about typical water parameters we usually test for. You've done that. So, short of buying a separate test for all the questionables on your providers tap water report and copper (you mentioned copper pipes, so even if it's not on their report, it's something you could still have), you should be able to have the same tests run on your water.

Here in Oklahoma, all water departments must have a 3rd party test of the water. I'm assuming this is pretty standard across the US. Contact your water supplier and ask for the phone number to the testing facility. Call the testing facility and ask for the process to have a sample tested. Here, you have to go to them and pick up a specific testing kit (One kit per sample). Be sure you wash your hands, completely rinse, and wear sterile gloves when collecting a sample. Not to protect you, but to protect the integrity of your sample. If it were me, I'd want at least 2 samples tested. One from tap, one from tank (be sure to wash & rinse hands and change gloves between collections). Collect the sample from your tap after running the water for just a moment. You don't want to flush your pipes before the test, but you want the water from your pipes and not the faucet. Also, be aware of what you're wanting to test. Don't turn on the hot water if you're only wanting water from your pipes tested. If you want both tested, in case there's something in the hot water tank, collect your cold water sample first. (So, that would bring the test total to 3). The sample will need to be at the facility within so many hours of collection, they'll tell you their requirement. Also, there is a turn around time for the results. It's not immediate because they also grow out cultures. My guess is you're looking at a few days to a week to get a result. That's a long time when you're dealing with something. It seems you might suspect copper, so let's go back to that. Since you didn't list a test result for copper, will the LFS test that parameter for you? If not, do they have the test in stock? If not, do they have any Poly Filter? Not really a test, but it changes colors as to what it absorbs.

Something else you might consider: how well were the tank and filter sealed up while in transport? Could something cause contamination in transit, even like vehicle exhaust? Or does UHaul treat the inside of their trucks for insects or anything? Did someone rent before you that hauled something that contaminated the inside? How hot/cold did it get inside the cargo area of the truck on your bb?

Sorry for such a long post, but hope something in it helps you!

EDIT
I went back and re-read your original post. You do have nitrates, so I'm thinking you didn't lose your bb.... but if you have ammonia do you have more stock than before and not enough bb to support it? Minicycle? Just additional thoughts....

 

Yeah, I know what you mean about that, and honestly I'm not sure which is better, lol.
I hope you figure it out, or someone more knowledgeable comes along. But the water report should have like copper, lead, and one other thing on it, for example mine just says it has less than 0.003%

I looked up my borough and their "annual water report" link led to... a report from 2015! Lol. Thanks for the help there, water company! But their lead and copper and such is fine/comparable to the old neighborhood, and same with the pH/hardness (at least according to the 2015 report), to the amount of detail they actually report. Lots of N/As as well, or "yup, we're well below the legal limit!"

I’m thinking heavy metal as well.

As for the ammonia, you have a new tank, cleaned substrate. That’s a ton of beneficial bacteria gone. I don’t know how heavily you cleaned the substrate, but the new tank does not have any BB established on the walls of the tank so maybe only having a seeded filter and a some seeded sand in the new tank threw it into a minI cycle? A huge change in water parameters can also shock the bacteria as well.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too... :\ retesting it had a 0 ppm reading, or at least I couldn't tell the difference between the tap and the tank sample. I also have an AquaClear filter with a ton of ceramic media... I know with such a small stock before the move, the population was probably pretty low, but even with 0.25 ppm ammonia I wouldn't expect a massive die-off of the MTS! I mean I've literally kept them in a closed gallon jar, in sand, with no circulation for weeks (not on purpose, just because I couldn't get them all out) and they lived! (I also tested a cycle later started with JUST that sand and it had ammonia > nitrite bacteria but not nitrite > nitrate, apparently...)

Wow ... So many variables. And I'm sure there are some we'll never think of. You've got a list going, which sure helps. One thought, depending on what's actually going on, I'm not sure how confident I'd be that the same thing is not going on in the . Bettas are pretty hardy, considering; could be the same thing is going on and it's just not having/having as much of an impact on the betta, or at least not yet.

Yeah, I've wondered about the small size of the CPDs and shrimp, compared to the nerites (which are happily munching the algae off the sides of the betta tank) and the betta, as well as bettas being... well, you know, rice paddy fish XD I'm keeping an eye on her, though. And the nerites. She attacked her food viciously today so that's a good sign!

Which of these were new?


One possibility is something was brought in to the tank.

Heh, actually they were all new except for one of the CPDs, which I know is a huge risk for the cycle, but with them all being from the same store it is quite surprising. Unless my CPD gave something to the others? Man, I'd feel really bad about that, but I guess in that case quarantine wouldn't have helped... since they'd all be fine in their own tanks, and only start having difficulties once I integrated them.

As you have indicated stress is a possibility as well as temp spike and change in the water. I am not well versed on MTS, but I believe they're pretty darned hardy. Maybe too many issues added up? And, also as indicated, you could've lost your bb.

Let me go back to the change in the water... basically you have 'unfamiliar' water and issues which could be coming from the water, so I might take a harder look at this if you rule other things out. (I'm assuming proper acclimation.) A tap water report will give you a starting point, but you need the water out of your tap tested. Yes, it will be different than at the water plant. I'm not talking about typical water parameters we usually test for. You've done that. So, short of buying a separate test for all the questionables on your providers tap water report and copper (you mentioned copper pipes, so even if it's not on their report, it's something you could still have), you should be able to have the same tests run on your water.

Here in Oklahoma, all water departments must have a 3rd party test of the water. I'm assuming this is pretty standard across the US. Contact your water supplier and ask for the phone number to the testing facility. Call the testing facility and ask for the process to have a sample tested. Here, you have to go to them and pick up a specific testing kit (One kit per sample). Be sure you wash your hands, completely rinse, and wear sterile gloves when collecting a sample. Not to protect you, but to protect the integrity of your sample. If it were me, I'd want at least 2 samples tested. One from tap, one from tank (be sure to wash & rinse hands and change gloves between collections). Collect the sample from your tap after running the water for just a moment. You don't want to flush your pipes before the test, but you want the water from your pipes and not the faucet. Also, be aware of what you're wanting to test. Don't turn on the hot water if you're only wanting water from your pipes tested. If you want both tested, in case there's something in the hot water tank, collect your cold water sample first. (So, that would bring the test total to 3). The sample will need to be at the facility within so many hours of collection, they'll tell you their requirement. Also, there is a turn around time for the results. It's not immediate because they also grow out cultures. My guess is you're looking at a few days to a week to get a result. That's a long time when you're dealing with something. It seems you might suspect copper, so let's go back to that. Since you didn't list a test result for copper, will the LFS test that parameter for you? If not, do they have the test in stock? If not, do they have any Poly Filter? Not really a test, but it changes colors as to what it absorbs.

Yeah, I emailed the fish store to ask them if they have the capability to test for things other than the nitrogen cycle, or if they sell a test. They have a policy of testing your water if your fish die in 10 days, either to help you get things sorted or to get you a replacement fish, so I know they are well versed in the nitrogen cycle at least. If they do I'll bring in a hot water, cold water, and tank water sample.

I've never heard of poly filter but I'll look into that!

Something else you might consider: how well were the tank and filter sealed up while in transport? Could something cause contamination in transit, even like vehicle exhaust? Or does UHaul treat the inside of their trucks for insects or anything? Did someone rent before you that hauled something that contaminated the inside? How hot/cold did it get inside the cargo area of the truck on your bb?

The tanks were actually in my car in the passenger seat (the betta one, anyway... the new 10 gal only had a 10 minute ride from the LFS). So it should have had comfortable temperatures.

Sorry for such a long post, but hope something in it helps you!

No worries! I'm grateful for all the help! I'll look for poly filter and wait for a reply from my LFS on their testing. And keep testing my water for the nitrogen cycle byproducts just in case something is amiss there. And email my landlords to see if there is any copper piping in the building.

 

.. the new 10 gal only had a 10 minute ride from the LFS

I was thinking more about the tank that the seal broke on. I had in my mind you set it up, put your filter on it and fish in it, then discovered the leak. If there were pesticides or such in the UHaul that got into the tank, then the filter sucked it in and contaminated it or if the inhabitants were exposed to it long enough for it to make them sick.... If you didn't get that far before discovering the leak, you can mark that as not a possibility!

 

I was thinking more about the tank that the seal broke on. I had in my mind you set it up, put your filter on it and fish in it, then discovered the leak. If there were pesticides or such in the UHaul that got into the tank, then the filter sucked it in and contaminated it or if the inhabitants were exposed to it long enough for it to make them sick.... If you didn't get that far before discovering the leak, you can mark that as not a possibility!

Ahh, yes, I see, yeah, that is what I did! But it was never in the uhaul itself, only in my car. I suppose my car could be exhausting into itself, but gosh, if that's true, I have some other serious problems on my hands XD

 

I suppose my car could be exhausting into itself, but gosh, if that's true, I have some other serious problems on my hands XD

LOL! That's certainly true!!!!!